Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: hubell on July 01, 2009, 12:02:26 pm
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Remember the Phase One/Leica strategic alliance that was announced with such fanfare at Photokina last Fall? It's gonzo!What do you think that means for support of Leica S2 files in the Capture One software? I hope Leica was not relying upon Capture One as its raw converter and Phase has pulled the plug.
http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=864286 (http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=864286)
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Remember the Phase One/Leica strategic alliance that was announced with such fanfare at Photokina last Fall? It's gonzo!What do you think that means for support of Leica S2 files in the Capture One software? I hope Leica was not relying upon Capture One as its raw converter and Phase has pulled the plug.
http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=864286 (http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=864286)
Pulling the plug works both ways and Leica told me back at PMA it was thinking about it's own software, which in my opinion is a really BAD idea. New camera , new software can be just double trouble with bugs. We all know how long it has taken Phase and Hassy for that matter to come up with good raw processing software and regardless what anyone thinks it was not a overnight sensation in either case but long development time . Now obviously Leica S2 files are DNG and can be supported by Lightroom and CS4 but is that going to be the best raw processing software for there files. All remains to be seen. As far as who pulled the plug that is a backend decision that happened in board meetings and we will never know and frankly who cares it is what is in the users hands that counts
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wow
I don't think this is good for the S2 or Leica...
it's this sort of thing that makes people lose confidence in MFDB, one day your supported one day your not, you planed to blow your hard earned money on x with y+Z and now y is no longer available so back to the drawing board.
all of this only makes the Hasselblad brand look better and better! ( as much as I love C1 software).
crazy times.....
am
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wow
I don't think this is good for the S2 or Leica...
it's this sort of thing that makes people lose confidence in MFDB, one day your supported one day your not, you planed to blow your hard earned money on x with y+Z and now y is no longer available so back to the drawing board.
all of this only makes the Hasselblad brand look better and better! ( as much as I love C1 software).
crazy times.....
am
I look at it differently it's not Phase i am running from but the thought of the S2 . Looking back i made a good decision to go Phase when I did , that has not changed. Everything around it has.
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Pulling the plug works both ways and Leica told me back at PMA it was thinking about it's own software, which in my opinion is a really BAD idea. New camera , new software can be just double trouble with bugs. We all know how long it has taken Phase and Hassy for that matter to come up with good raw processing software and regardless what anyone thinks it was not a overnight sensation in either case but long development time . Now obviously Leica S2 files are DNG and can be supported by Lightroom and CS4 but is that going to be the best raw processing software for there files. All remains to be seen. As far as who pulled the plug that is a backend decision that happened in board meetings and we will never know and frankly who cares it is what is in the users hands that counts
Fact: Phase has closed its Capture One software to every other maker of medium format digital products over the years. It would not be surprising if they decided to continue that policy with Leica's S2.
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Fact: Phase has closed its Capture One software to every other maker of medium format digital products over the years. It would not be surprising if they decided to continue that policy with Leica's S2.
Untrue: Capture One has supported the Mamiya ZD since May of 2008 (C1 4.1).
Also of note Capture One supports both reading/writing DNGs and is the only medium format software which supports a myriad of dSLR formats, including tethering for most Nikon and Canon dSLRs. C1 is, by *far*, the most open medium format software available.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:[email protected])
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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Untrue: Capture One has supported the Mamiya ZD since May of 2008 (C1 4.1).
Also of note Capture One supports both reading/writing DNGs and is the only medium format software which supports a myriad of dSLR formats, including tethering for most Nikon and Canon dSLRs. C1 is, by *far*, the most open medium format software available.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:[email protected])
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
Yes, Capture One has been quite the open piece of software for users of backs from Phase's medium format competitors over the years. That ZD has been a big threat.
BTW, what about the current owners of Leaf backs. Does Phase's acquisition of Leaf include taking over the warranty obligations of Leaf ?
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Untrue: Capture One has supported the Mamiya ZD since May of 2008 (C1 4.1).
Also of note Capture One supports both reading/writing DNGs and is the only medium format software which supports a myriad of dSLR formats, including tethering for most Nikon and Canon dSLRs. C1 is, by *far*, the most open medium format software available.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:[email protected])
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
Doug,
Have you heard anything about if C1 Pro will support LEAF files now?
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Yes, Capture One has been quite the open piece of software for users of backs from Phase's medium format competitors over the years. That ZD has been a big threat.
BTW, what about the current owners of Leaf backs. Does Phase's acquisition of Leaf include taking over the warranty obligations of Leaf ?
Howard
You know how much Phase One users have suffered over the years because Flexcolor was not open to them.
Couldn't sleep last night?
Steve
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Doug,
Have you heard anything about if C1 Pro will support LEAF files now?
Oh God I hope not.
A large part of why a lot of people choose a particular MFDB is the software and workflow.
Now I know a lot of people like C1, and it has taken Leaf a while to get LC11 right (don't even mention LC10), but for god sake don't F*** with it.
If they are going to keep it as a separate brand, do it properly, and maintain the software as well. As the nightmare of trying to get all Leaf backs to work with C1, like Valeo's or C-Most's, or heaven forbid a Volare, not just the shiny new Aptus' will suck up as many if not more resources than just maintaining LC11 I would think.
Depressed multiple Leaf owner.
:-(
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Yes, Capture One has been quite the open piece of software for users of backs from Phase's medium format competitors over the years. That ZD has been a big threat.
BTW, what about the current owners of Leaf backs. Does Phase's acquisition of Leaf include taking over the warranty obligations of Leaf ?
The ink is still a little wet don't you think. I'm sure it is being figured out but why would it not they own it now. With that goes the whole bowl of wax. I love the Hassy owners , question Phocus will process what exactly Hassy and only Hassy. Not a bad thing but throwing Phase under the bus is pretty freaking silly here don't you think when it supports almost every DSLR in the market and a ton of 4/3rds and P&S camera's, not to mention leica DMR and M8. Siner and leaf software as well only process there files. Let's not forget tethering as well on a lot of systems. So Phase is the ugly two sided monster here. Sorry i have to laugh at this stuff.
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Oh God I hope not.
A large part of why a lot of people choose a particular MFDB is the software and workflow.
Now I know a lot of people like C1, and it has taken Leaf a while to get LC11 right (don't even mention LC10), but for god sake don't F*** with it.
If they are going to keep it as a separate brand, do it properly, and maintain the software as well. As the nightmare of trying to get all Leaf backs to work with C1, like Valeo's or C-Most's, or heaven forbid a Volare, not just the shiny new Aptus' will suck up as many if not more resources than just maintaining LC11 I would think.
Depressed multiple Leaf owner.
:-(
Be nice if you still had the choice between them and my bet is you will at least for awhile. Stuff like this just does not happen overnight. But again we still don't know what the current plans are and what they will be. This may take a while to get it all under wraps. Anyway for me the thought of a S2 is slipping very fast and will just sit still until a new body comes out from Phase and may move up to the P40+. Other than that getting great files and just happy to be shooting something that works every time without fail with great files and a nice workflow for me. My buying gear slut days are on major hold.
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The ink is still a little wet don't you think.
Not if you are an owner of a Leaf back or an AFI camera.
When you buy a business like that of Leaf, you generally have two choices. You can buy all of the assets and take on the associated liabilities(e.g., future warranty obligations), or you can cherry pick the assets and leave the liabilities behind with the seller(i.e., Kodak's subsidiary in this case). I'm thinking Phase went with the second option.[G] We'll see. If they did, they will have one hell of a pissed off Leaf customer base.
BTW, what new Phase body? Didn't the President of Phase One say here on LL recently that they were turning over a new leaf and would not announce new products before they were ready to ship?
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When you buy a business like that of Leaf, you generally have two choices. You can buy all of the assets and take on the associated liabilities(e.g., future warranty obligations), or you can cherry pick the assets and leave the liabilities behind with the seller(i.e., Kodak's subsidiary in this case). I'm thinking Phase went with the second option.[G] We'll see. If they did, they will have one hell of a pissed off Leaf customer base.
It was already officially announced that they went with option 2.
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'Japanese companies are hugely quality focussed, taking their time,' says Hakonsson. 'However, Mamiya is already working a new system of camera and lenses for later this year and you will see an increase in the speed of development.'
tricky statement. Now Mamiya doesn't focuss on quality anymore and instead goes the Phase way... or what?
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Untrue: Capture One has supported the Mamiya ZD since May of 2008 (C1 4.1).
AFTER Phase announced the strategic alliance with Mamiya in November 2007. It's not like Phase engineers went to work one random day and charitably decided, "Oh gee, lets make the C1 work with MEF files. That'll be fun." Part of the announcement included Phase stating C1 would support MEF files. Six months later they released the update with only ONE profile for the ZD, whereas Phase One backs have four or five profiles. Phase One delivered C1 support for MEFs, but at a minimal level.
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AFTER Phase announced the strategic alliance with Mamiya in November 2007. It's not like Phase engineers went to work one random day and charitably decided, "Oh gee, lets make the C1 work with MEF files. That'll be fun." Part of the announcement included Phase stating C1 would support MEF files. Six months later they released the update with only ONE profile for the ZD, whereas Phase One backs have four or five profiles. Phase One delivered C1 support for MEFs, but at a minimal level.
Minimal for Phase yes, but having one camera specific color profile is still far more than Lightroom and ACR which basically assume the same generic color profile for all cameras.
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Capture One has had their "Looks Editor" for a long time and Camera Raw and Lightroom have their DNG Color Editor (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/accessories/dng-profiles.shtml). If you don't like the supplied default profiles and want to roll your own it's pretty straightforward with either program.
Michael
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Six months later they released the update with only ONE profile for the ZD, whereas Phase One backs have four or five profiles. Phase One delivered C1 support for MEFs, but at a minimal level.
True, but have you processed an MEF through both C1 and LightRoom?
If I were a ZD owner I would be extremely pleased.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:[email protected])
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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I have and a world of difference with a ZD. But sold it bought a Phase back
And Phase files look like total crap in LR and removed LR completely from my system. So has Jack actually. We both hated what LR was doing to the Phase files. Now that was a version ago so not sure today what they look like today. But they came in about 1.5 stops too dark and the color temp was all over the map with them. Certainly was not tuned for Phase files. I gave up and removed it. Admittedly though i am a C1 diehard been using it since the Canon 1DS and every camera since than.
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There is a lot of focus on the downside for Leica, but I think that a lot of people don't realize what this may mean for Phase One. Leica is/was their single largest C1 customer. Every D-Lux 4, D-Lux 4 Titanium, M8, and M8.2 ships with a licensed copy of C1. If we figure ~100,000 D-Lux 4s and ~35,000 M8/M8.2s (over the last 2 years), I'm sure that the amount Leica pays Phase for ~135,000 (or more) s/w licensees is not insignificant. This is additional revenue that could disappear in the future. I don't know the details of this deal or the "strategic alliance" that got canceled, but these things work both ways.
Leica's advantage is that the S2, just like the DMR and M8 before it, shoot in the non-proprietary DNG format. This allows almost any RAW processing s/w to work with S2 files off the shelf today. As to what Leica has planned for included s/w is anybody's guess right now. Back at PMA, there was already some discussoin of working with Adobe or possibly developing something in-house, so I think Leica has known this relationship with Phase One wasn't really going to work out for some time now. Even back at Photokina in September, the S2 files were being demoed in Lightroom. For the LFI shoot in Germany a few months later, the photographer used Aperture to process his S2 files.
While we may never know all the reasons behind 1) the announcement at Photokina and 2) calling it off some months later, some things are clear.
- Phase wanted Leica glass for their Phamiya system. This wasn't going to happen (Leica even said so back at Photokina). Why give away your greatest competitive edge?
- Phase wanted to be able to sell the S2 through its sales channels. Again, since Photokina, Leica said that wasn't going to happen either. At PMA in March, the S2 product manager went on record with me that the S2 would only be sold and supported through Leica dealers.
- Phase said that they were deeply involved with development of sensor, firmware, etc. on the S2. Leica refuted this 100% the day it was said. The information coming from Phase just wasn't jiving with Leica's reality.
- With the S2 being in direct competition with Phase, there were concerns at Leica as to whether Phase would allow C1 to give optimal results for S2 files, or whether they might cripple it in some way.
- On the Phase side of things, they don't want to help a clear competitor. Hasselblad, Sinar, and (until the the recent Phase/Leaf deal materializes) Leaf are unsupported in C1 for this reason. With the ZD, an agreement was struck with Mamiya that Phase dealers would have a one-month head start selling the new AFDIII ahead of Mamiya dealers, in exchange for C1 support. They would also be able to brand it for their own use. Clearly, the ZD, with older technology, was not a threat, so adding support for it in C1 was no big deal. The S2 is a different story. Incidentally, before that deal was struck between Mamiya and Phase, the ZD shipped with Lightroom bundled.
Admittedly, C1 is great software. I use it for most of my files. It is missing the Digital Asset Management abilities found Aperture and Lightroom, but I live with that limitation because I really like the quality of the files. If another solution will give me equal quality files, with the added benefit of DAM, I'll be a happy camper. We'll have to see what Leica announces in the coming weeks, but I for one am not surprised by the news. I'm only surprised it was not announced earlier.
David
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Howard
You know how much Phase One users have suffered over the years because Flexcolor was not open to them.
Couldn't sleep last night?
Steve
Yes, about as much as Hasselblad H3D owners have suffered by not being able to put their digital back on a Mamiya AFD! I must confess that I have never awakened in the middle of the night with an overpowering urge to do that(but I probably know both of the photographers who have).
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Yes, about as much as Hasselblad H3D owners have suffered by not being able to put their digital back on a Mamiya AFD! I must confess that I have never awakened in the middle of the night with an overpowering urge to do that(but I probably know both of the photographers who have).
Back to your original issue of open/closed, if any H3D owner has suffered by not being able to put their digital back on an AFD (as you state), the not being able to is through no fault of ours, as the AFD is an open system. Any digital back can go on it, unless the manufacturer of that digital back has prevented this from occurring.
Steve
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what about the current owners of Leaf backs. Does Phase's acquisition of Leaf include taking over the warranty obligations of Leaf ?
Don't know the arrangements in the US, but certainly in the UK it is my understanding that Kodak have retained all the service staff in Israel and we, as dealers, are currently in contact with them. At present there is absolutely no difference in service levels, and I would expect that to continue. It might well be that when the Leaf Imaging Co. is up and running they might take over the service staff and obligation with the blessing of Kodak, it would certainly make sense, but that's merely conjecture at present.
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Don't know the arrangements in the US, but certainly in the UK it is my understanding that Kodak have retained all the service staff in Israel and we, as dealers, are currently in contact with them. At present there is absolutely no difference in service levels, and I would expect that to continue. It might well be that when the Leaf Imaging Co. is up and running they might take over the service staff and obligation with the blessing of Kodak, it would certainly make sense, but that's merely conjecture at present.
So, to be clear, Phase One has NOT hired the service staff and undertaken the obligation to fulfill warranty obligations owed to the existing Leaf customer base. The Leaf owners will be relying for service on Kodak, which has every economic incentive to delay service, deny warranty coverage and otherwise do whatever it can to minimize the costs of service to it. Very reassuring.
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So, to be clear, Phase One has NOT hired the service staff and undertaken the obligation to fulfill warranty obligations owed to the existing Leaf customer base. The Leaf owners will be relying for service on Kodak, which has every economic incentive to delay service, deny warranty coverage and otherwise do whatever it can to minimize the costs of service to it. Very reassuring.
Clearly I'm going to very biased in this, but it might be worth waiting a few weeks/months to hear real-world-reports before assuming quality/speed of service will be anything but great.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:[email protected])
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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Clearly I'm going to very biased in this, but it might be worth waiting a few weeks/months to hear real-world-reports before assuming quality/speed of service will be anything but great.
David Farkas and Doug,
Your both very well meaning gentlemen, but let's be honest about the specialty camera makers. They let you and your customers down too many times.
BC
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True, but have you processed an MEF through both C1 and LightRoom?
If I were a ZD owner I would be extremely pleased.
True, I still have many .mef around from my ZD days and C1 does a very good job with them, basically as good as Raw Developper on regular exposures with very nice colors.
RD remains significantly ahead on long exposures where it is in a class of its own.
Cheers,
Bernard
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http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=864524 (http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=864524)
http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=864524 (http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=864524)
The latest
The S2 will be released in the summer 09 this year without PO SW.
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Does Phase's acquisition of Leaf include taking over the warranty obligations of Leaf ?
Howard, you're a lawyer, so you might have some extra insight into this. I was under the impression P1 didn't acquire Leaf, but rather formed a new company - Leaf Imaging, Ltd - with the mission of acquiring Leaf assets, and entering into an IP licensing agreement with Kodak. To me it sounds like P1 is simply buying up some of the Leaf technology, rather than acquiring Leaf outright. What's your take?
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Howard, you're a lawyer, so you might have some extra insight into this. I was under the impression P1 didn't acquire Leaf, but rather formed a new company - Leaf Imaging, Ltd - with the mission of acquiring Leaf assets, and entering into an IP licensing agreement with Kodak. To me it sounds like P1 is simply buying up some of the Leaf technology, rather than acquiring Leaf outright. What's your take?
Yes, it is clear that Phase formed a new company and cherry picked certain tangible and intangible assets relating to the Leaf digital back business out of Leaf. It also appears that Phase left behind all of the liabilities associated with that business, including the obligations on the warranties held by existing Leaf customers on Leaf backs and AFI cameras. This pattern is not uncommon when a company buys selected assets of a failed company like Leaf. Kodak/Leaf will, in theory, continue to provide warranty service on those products. (Did you ever see the Aamco ad where a guy's car transmission breaks down in the middle of the desert and he leaves it for repair with the local service station? The guy calls several months later to ask how the repairs are coming along. The owner assure him that he has his best guys "on it", and the camera cuts to show two drunk employees lying on the hood of the car drinking beers. in the Phase One version of the ad, the equivalent of the service station owner asks the car owner if he is aware of new upgrade offers on Phase One backs.) On the Hy6/AFI project with Sinar, my expectation is that Phase could not take over any legal rights Leaf has under that contract with Sinar to obtain AFI versions of the Hy6 without also assuming any contract obligations Leaf also has under that contract. It's unlikely that Phase is interested in doing that. This whole deal is much ado about nothing. They paid next to nothing, and they got commensurate value. They probably think they can migrate Leaf customers over time to Phase products, but there is a greater risk that they will alienate them with the walk away on the warranties and mediocre upgrade offers. Moreover, even a cherry pick like they are doing usurps limited management resources and is a distraction from fighting the real battle, which is the encroachment of Canon/Nikon on the historic turf of medium format digital. They keep talking about open v. closed systems as if the real battle is with Hasselblad. It's not, and they better figure it out because the people who are deserting medium format digital for Canon/Nikon couldn't care less that those cameras are completely closed. They just work very seamlessly and deliver what they promise.
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....the real battle, which is the encroachment of Canon/Nikon on the historic turf of medium format digital......people who are deserting medium format digital for Canon/Nikon couldn't care less that those cameras are completely closed. They just work very seamlessly and deliver what they promise.
Couldn't agree more. I bought a D3X a couple of months ago and haven't used my P45+ since. The P45+ still delivers better resolution and acuity, but the D3X isn't far behind, and in other ways is at parity or ahead.
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True, I still have many .mef around from my ZD days and C1 does a very good job with them, basically as good as Raw Developper on regular exposures with very nice colors.
RD remains significantly ahead on long exposures where it is in a class of its own.
Cheers,
Bernard
So, so true. 4 second exposure with the ZD dSLR.
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Hi!
Looking at the flash presentation on the front of the phase web site today makes me believe your right Howard!
An obvious move I must say - Why not just say "Upgrade now and stay safe"
/FlashDB
Contax & P25
H3DII-39
H2
Yes, it is clear that Phase formed a new company and cherry picked certain tangible and intangible assets relating to the Leaf digital back business out of Leaf. It also appears that Phase left behind all of the liabilities associated with that business, including the obligations on the warranties held by existing Leaf customers on Leaf backs and AFI cameras. This pattern is not uncommon when a company buys selected assets of a failed company like Leaf. Kodak/Leaf will, in theory, continue to provide warranty service on those products. (Did you ever see the Aamco ad where a guy's car transmission breaks down in the middle of the desert and he leaves it for repair with the local service station? The guy calls several months later to ask how the repairs are coming along. The owner assure him that he has his best guys "on it", and the camera cuts to show two drunk employees lying on the hood of the car drinking beers. in the Phase One version of the ad, the equivalent of the service station owner asks the car owner if he is aware of new upgrade offers on Phase One backs.) On the Hy6/AFI project with Sinar, my expectation is that Phase could not take over any legal rights Leaf has under that contract with Sinar to obtain AFI versions of the Hy6 without also assuming any contract obligations Leaf also has under that contract. It's unlikely that Phase is interested in doing that. This whole deal is much ado about nothing. They paid next to nothing, and they got commensurate value. They probably think they can migrate Leaf customers over time to Phase products, but there is a greater risk that they will alienate them with the walk away on the warranties and mediocre upgrade offers. Moreover, even a cherry pick like they are doing usurps limited management resources and is a distraction from fighting the real battle, which is the encroachment of Canon/Nikon on the historic turf of medium format digital. They keep talking about open v. closed systems as if the real battle is with Hasselblad. It's not, and they better figure it out because the people who are deserting medium format digital for Canon/Nikon couldn't care less that those cameras are completely closed. They just work very seamlessly and deliver what they promise.
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for those in nyc, the leica reps will be at fotocare on monday and i understand they will have a production s2 on hand....
http://hdhd.wordpress.com/ (http://hdhd.wordpress.com/)
regards
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Couldn't agree more. I bought a D3X a couple of months ago and haven't used my P45+ since. The P45+ still delivers better resolution and acuity, but the D3X isn't far behind, and in other ways is at parity or ahead.
would be intersted to know more of your thoguhts on the D3x and MF, its something I have been mulling over.
have read some very critical reviews of D3x and its pricing structure and age of that body design, but... its a tempting machine.
however 2Fps at the higher bit depth is not that great.
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Hi Narkin
Follow this thread if you want some opinions: http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=35658 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=35658)
Cheers
FlashDB
would be intersted to know more of your thoguhts on the D3x and MF, its something I have been mulling over.
have read some very critical reviews of D3x and its pricing structure and age of that body design, but... its a tempting machine.
however 2Fps at the higher bit depth is not that great.