Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Sergio from Toronto on June 22, 2009, 11:35:33 am
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I am throwing the initiative to create a petition group for either Mamiya Company or Phase-One, or any other digital back manufacturer.
This is a petition to have available a Full Frame digital back for RZ67, in order to have wide angle lenses full performance.
This is a call to the mentioned manufacturers to make a 56×69,5 mm sensor digital back.
In my opinion, we may not need such extremely high resolution backs as 40 or 65 megapixels, but we do want to use our lenses as we used them with film.
Interiors and architecture is one of my frequent fields of professional assignments.
I am eager to hear other's opinions and thoughts.
Thanks
Sergio
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Would be nice, but I dont think you will see one come to market since it would probably cost $100,000 with current technology.
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I am eager to hear other's opinions and thoughts.
Thanks
Sergio
Please take this with the best of intentions, but this is like two GM engineers talking about designing the next Hummer, while across the street Toyota builds another Prius assembly plant.
I understand the value of "Full Frame", I understand the value of getting more use out of your current equipment, but the world is changing by the second and it is not clamoring for more cameras whose sole destination is for ink on paper prints.
BC
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Please take this with the best of intentions, but this is like two GM engineers talking about designing the next Hummer, while across the street Toyota builds another Prius assembly plant.
I understand the value of "Full Frame", I understand the value of getting more use out of your current equipment, but the world is changing by the second and it is not clamoring for more cameras whose sole destination is for ink on paper prints.
BC
I fully take it with good intentions.
But on the 35mm DSLR's level, Nikon has launched 3 models featuring "Full Frame" (D3, D700, D3x), and their prices are not climbing, they delayed a couple of years.
I am sure that many RZ owners would be happy to have up to 30 megapixels, isn't enough? back but full frame.
SS
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I fully take it with good intentions.
But on the 35mm DSLR's level, Nikon has launched 3 models featuring "Full Frame" (D3, D700, D3x), and their prices are not climbing, they delayed a couple of years.
I am sure that many RZ owners would be happy to have up to 30 megapixels, isn't enough? back but full frame.
SS
With a 45 P45MP back just back up slightly and you will have almost full frame.. Then crop to full frame.
Not worth the extra $$$$ to produce/buy a full frame.
Isn't the p65 suppose to be full frame. Not sure on an RZ.
Snook
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I publicly offered 100K already about 2 years ago for Rz full frame. It would be a dream at around 40MP.
It would show lots of photogs what a joke the D3X is ( I got one ) as compare to Rz when it comes to image drawing.
Snook
Stepping back even couple inches completely changes lens drawing. It is the difference between great shot and a dull one. I am sure you know the difference that couple inches make.
Andre
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I publicly offered 100K already about 2 years ago for Rz full frame. It would be a dream at around 40MP.
Andre
Who knows... maybe you'll get lucky next year. Red is supposed to release a 6x17cm DSMC back for just 53'000$:
http://www.red.com/epic_scarlet/ (http://www.red.com/epic_scarlet/)
I understand that there used to be times where yields were extremely low in CCD and CMOS sensor production. That's what drove sensor prices through the roof. But production yields could be improved a lot which should have resulted in noticable price drops. I've read that sensor prices have come down EXTREMELY in the 36x24 world because of this. This made products such as the Canon 5D (and Mark2), and the 1Ds line at affordable prices possible.
It would be great to work a RZ67 with digital as we used to work with film and receive the same look. But let's be honest... it's more likely that all MFDB companies go belly up than that we see a 6x7 digital back for a 25 year old camera platform. Alone my pelican case for the Mamiya rz67 is so huge it's difficult to travel with it. Few people today would be willing to deal with this regardless of the provided image quality.
It seems the professional photography market is going towards "good enough as cheap as possible" and not "what's the best we can get for our money".
That's why Canon 1Ds MK5 and Nikon D5x will eat away PhaseOne and Hasselblads market bit by bit. 1Ds MK3 and D3X are already doing that today although I'm far from happy with the 1Ds MK3.
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But let's be honest... it's more likely that all MFDB companies go belly up than that we see a 6x7 digital back for a 25 year old camera platform. Alone my pelican case for the Mamiya rz67 is so huge it's difficult to travel with it. Few people today would be willing to deal with this regardless of the provided image quality.
It seems the professional photography market is going towards "good enough as cheap as possible" and not "what's the best we can get for our money".
That's why Canon 1Ds MK5 and Nikon D5x will eat away PhaseOne and Hasselblads market bit by bit. 1Ds MK3 and D3X are already doing that today although I'm far from happy with the 1Ds MK3.
Canon and Nikon would eat away MFD if all that MFD would have to offer will be cropped down 645.
Same principle as with film before,
6x7 is not 35mm but it is damn close to 36mm x 48mm.
If MFD want to survive, it has to offer a product that blows away any D5x and it would easily do it with larger sensor.
Andre
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Who knows... maybe you'll get lucky next year. Red is supposed to release a 6x17cm DSMC back for just 53'000$:
http://www.red.com/epic_scarlet/ (http://www.red.com/epic_scarlet/)
I understand that there used to be times where yields were extremely low in CCD and CMOS sensor production. That's what drove sensor prices through the roof. But production yields could be improved a lot which should have resulted in noticable price drops. I've read that sensor prices have come down EXTREMELY in the 36x24 world because of this. This made products such as the Canon 5D (and Mark2), and the 1Ds line at affordable prices possible.
It would be great to work a RZ67 with digital as we used to work with film and receive the same look. But let's be honest... it's more likely that all MFDB companies go belly up than that we see a 6x7 digital back for a 25 year old camera platform. Alone my pelican case for the Mamiya rz67 is so huge it's difficult to travel with it. Few people today would be willing to deal with this regardless of the provided image quality.
It seems the professional photography market is going towards "good enough as cheap as possible" and not "what's the best we can get for our money".
That's why Canon 1Ds MK5 and Nikon D5x will eat away PhaseOne and Hasselblads market bit by bit. 1Ds MK3 and D3X are already doing that today although I'm far from happy with the 1Ds MK3.
i was just going to post the red link. i think we are going to see red be a major player in the professional photography market within a few years.
paul
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The size of the sensor is directly related to the cost.
It doesn't matter if you only put 12MP on a 6x7 sensor, it's still going to be freaking expensive! Don't hold your breath, but didn't we say that about FF 645 not too long ago?
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If I understood correctly from Jim Tasket at Bear Images in Palo Alto, there are bigger sensors out there ... just not integrated.
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While I am not overly optimistic about any DB manufacturer producing a full frame back for RZ67, I would like to be counted as one who would like to see it happen.
Certainly the world is moving in a direction that does not clamor for big cameras and big prints. One sees the trend for images being shared via the internet and the increasing
popularity of video clips ... but, if it were not for what happened a few days ago I would not be adding to this thread.
An old client called and requested reprints of some family and individual portraits I did years ago with RZ67 and Vericolor. I had the negatives scanned at a bare minimum resolution to make 8 x 10 and 11 x 14 prints. When I printed them on my Epson R2400 I was astonished at the quality. Some would praise the 3D effects or the way the 110 mm lens draws ... whatever the case may be, the portraits had have a more palpable presence than anything I've seen come out of my 5DII or a borrowed D3x.
I may not be in a position to offer 100K for an RZ full frame, but a lot more than is asked for some cropped/compromised solutions.
Richard
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I publicly offered 100K already about 2 years ago for Rz full frame.
Andre
I'm with you... I offer 100K to phase or....
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I'm with you... I offer 100K to phase or....
I like the guys that comes around forums to show off their last Maserati.
BTW nobody sees it!
I offer 200K for a regular one and another than comes in pink crocodile leather.
What the eck!
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I like the guys that comes around forums to show off their last Maserati.
BTW nobody sees it!
I offer 200K for a regular one and another than comes in pink crocodile leather.
What the eck!
not just any Maserati, 6x7 Maserati....
PS: good luck with pink color though hahahaha....
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Hello,
I would like one too ...for 10k
But today, shoot film on 6x7 (Fuji velvia ,provia or kodak portra ) then scan and WOW !
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I dont need 6x7 just 6x6 please
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I'm with you... 56mmX56mm would be perfect for my Rollei!
I dont need 6x7 just 6x6 please
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I like the guys that comes around forums to show off their last Maserati.
BTW nobody sees it!
I offer 200K for a regular one and another than comes in pink crocodile leather.
What the eck!
It is not an issue of Maserati nor showing off. It is about letting Mfg know that there is a market for high end products.
It is not about having or not having money. It is about the fact that not every photographer and studio is made by a guy with 5D and a flash.
When you consider how much does it cost to purchase real estate for a studio in any major city and than remodel it to fit your purpose,
when you consider how much it cost to buy full equipment for fashion studio on top of it than you will quickly realize that 100K makes just a few percent of a bill.
Full frame Rz back would set my studio for 10 years without a need to change.
My point goes around the premiss that by now there are photogs who would purchase larger sensor back but do not give shit about more pixels.
I will not pay again for non existing improvements to existing backs. I will not buy AFI7 - 3 nor 5. To me they are Aptus 75 on a camera that can not focus before the back recycle. And yes, two of them cost 70K
Andre
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My point goes around the premiss that by now there are photogs who would purchase larger sensor back but do not give shit about more pixels.
Yep, you can add me to that list.
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Given a choice between a lower megapixel count on a much larger chip ( eg 6x6/4x5) and more megapixels squished onto the traditional 645 format - it is a no brainer to prefer larger chip dimensions over more megapixels. This is an inconvenient truth for the companies that have based their strategies on selling megapixels and software. These same companies have come to dominate hardware sales in high end use - because of megapixel counts - despite the obvious and sad limitations of these same chips on traditional technical and view camera useage.
I wonder how many on this forum would invest in MF camera systems - if they had the choice of using view and technical camera systems based on large enough chip sizes to easilly employ shifts/tilts and skews?
We are coming to the end of the road for these MF system companies as far as possible improvements in utility goes -anyone using the gear already knows this and substituting post shot procesing and photoshop magic - is no substitute for a photographic control over the making of an image in the first place.
To end the observation with a joke- witness the typical fashion shot - the photographer uses lenses and chips capable of resolving hairs on hair on the models nose - only to have to employ a post shot somebody to make the skin look plastic and barbie dolled - seriously funny - you have oversharpenned eyes popping out of a plastic wrap skin which has no reference to anything remotely attractive or appealing and has become some kind of surreal standard it seems. thats not photography it is next generation air brushed illustration.
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It's a much heard joke on fashion but......
Remember that there's much more than skin, we do a lot of work for hairdressers for example and the extra sharpness/crispness of MF really helps to let the pictures stand out.
Also when shooting materials for designers it's very nice to have the really sharp images, the material shows a much more real.
But skin.... yeah I agree I also always retouch skin in the studio sessions, outside it's 50/50.
On megapixels.
I agree with people that think that 22MP is enough.
I don't rule out I will ever shoot on 39/60MP but in reality I think for most work 22MP is enough.
Than again I love to zoom in a picture and see all the details.
So to stay in the thread, I would love to see larger sensors, the Aptus10 is something I'm still very interested in.
But would love to also see a sensor like that with 4:3 format.
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To end the observation with a joke- witness the typical fashion shot - the photographer uses lenses and chips capable of resolving hairs on hair on the models nose - only to have to employ a post shot somebody to make the skin look plastic and barbie dolled - seriously funny - you have oversharpenned eyes popping out of a plastic wrap skin which has no reference to anything remotely attractive or appealing and has become some kind of surreal standard it seems. thats not photography it is next generation air brushed illustration.
Peter, I often see imperfections on the images, just out of the camera, that I cann't see in viewfinder.
What is your solution?
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Hm, would love to see a ff 6x7 sensor, but a ccd in that size and the pixelpitch of a current 22MP back, which would then result in a much appreciated resolution of like 30 to 40 MP (someone else do the math please ), would kick us right back into moiree hell. I hated the p25 for that.
So why not a CMOS chip? Sharp enough for me, the look of 6x7 would be much more welcome in my world then super sharp super high res, and don't forget cmos's high iso capabilities. And a 6x7 back would really offer some real estate for a nice display! And sensor god, please add a Pentax 67D and a Mamiya 7IID.
Ok, back to work, enough daydreaming already.
cheers
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hahahah guys - it is a two edged sword - how much is too much detail and how much is not enough..but plastic skin -- puhleese
I think the old Avedon B& W age - they made great pics - but less detail and no colour..so I guess they had it easy compared to you guys..
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hahahah guys - it is a two edged sword - how much is too much detail and how much is not enough..but plastic skin -- puhleese
I think the old Avedon B& W age - they made great pics - but less detail and no colour..so I guess they had it easy compared to you guys..
It depends on the market and the possibilities I guess.
I know that some older photographers have said in interviews that IF photoshop was available when they worked they for sure would have used it.
And the market demands a certain look in some cases.
I think it's best to just do everything so not be stuck in one case