Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: mcmorrison on June 19, 2009, 11:48:45 am
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Hello,
I am looking towards buying a 9900 and have been reading of the clogging difficulties some folks have been having. Thanks to Wayne Fox in particular for his extensive reporting.
I wonder if there are any 7900/9900 owners who are NOT having significant clogging issues? If so, and you are willing to post on your experience, would you give us a note on how your x900 is working out?
Also, it would be great to hear from Jeff or Michael if you have any thoughts on the clogging topic. Have you had any clogging troubles with your own machines? Do you have a sense of whether these issues are isolated, or whether there is a systemic issue that needs to be worked out? If there is a broader issue, do you know anything about it, or about efforts at Epson to address them?
Many thanks,
Michael Morrison
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Also, it would be great to hear from Jeff or Michael if you have any thoughts on the clogging topic. Have you had any clogging troubles with your own machines? Do you have a sense of whether these issues are isolated, or whether there is a systemic issue that needs to be worked out? If there is a broader issue, do you know anything about it, or about efforts at Epson to address them?
Other than the same auto-clean before each darn print issue (which I turned off way in the beginning) I've really had very little problem with my 7900. We dragged first a late preproduction then later a production unit 7900 around to 10 cities and aside from getting some micro-banding while in Washington DC and some issues at the next venue in NYC where I had to do a couple of power cleans (same prepro unit that was having issues in DC) we had very little issue even though the printers were crated and shipped by truck from venue to venue...
I do know that Epson is working on some issues primarily related to the nozzle pair cleaning cycles and I think there will be a firmware update "soonish" that will fix that (I hope).
As for my opinion regarding some of the antidotal reports of problems, well, don't know what to say. Ain't happening to me. Since I'm not sitting over the other peoples' shoulders I can't say if their printers are problematic or if there's something else at play...the 79/9900 owners I know personally haven't seem to have had the problems some have reported...
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I've just visited a clent with 6 machines including 2 x 9900 with spectros- driven from gmg, he doesnt do anything other than pick up the printed jobs, calibration is done while he sleeps- he loves them. I specifically aked about nozzels /banding and in the 2 months he has had them in highish volume production he hasnt seen any at all.
I checked with another user -7900- driving it very hard (10-12 hour day) and he is buying a second machine- also very happy
edwinb
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Knock on wood, mine has been basically trouble free after I got a humidifier and keep the humidity between 45-50%. The auto cleaning is turned off and when I am not printing work, I make sure to turn the printer on run a couple of nozzle checks every 3-4 days.
Jim
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I got the 7900 in late December and until the first week of February had the nozzle "clogging" issue others are reporting. Given its performance since then I'm perfectly happy with the printer. I've put more details in a different thread at http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=35627 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=35627).
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I wonder how these clogging issues relate to:
- low or high volume output (occasional private versus 24/7 commercial use)
- lower humidity vs higher humidty
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I wonder how these clogging issues relate to:
- low or high volume output (occasional private versus 24/7 commercial use)
- lower humidity vs higher humidty
Volume: My output volume is very low if you are comparing to a 24/7 commercial print shop. In the time since I got the printer it has printed at least something on most days, sometimes a lot, sometimes a little, sometimes with periods of 2 or 3 days turned off.
Humidity: In my case the problems stopped happening in early February, during winter, when humidity levels are low. Where the printer is located humidity is in the 25%-35% range from mid December through mid March or early April. When humidity levels start to go above 50% on a regular basis I run a dehumidifier to keep it in the 48%-50% range. So far I see no correlation between humidity and what has happened with the 7900.
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I'm skeptical of humidity levels having much to do with nozzle clogging. The pump/cap assembly design looks like it completely seals off the head to external environment when parked. And, it's soaked in moist ink every time you run the printer. I'm convinced using the printer on a regular basis and running lots of ink through it is the best way to avoid clogs.
I purchased my two 9800's from a business that printed all day long and both were clog free for months after I bought them. Then... due to very little use on my part, one machine has been a clogging nightmare. For some reason, the other has had no problems at all.
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I'm a happy camper with my 9900. Apart from the confounded auto cleaning cycles which I disabled on the main panel, I haven't had one nozzle clog. My print volumes are very low, but most days I just do a nozzle check print out to keep the ink moving through the nozzles and head. I do not control the humidity, and have variable humidity from around 50 - 85% here inear Brisbane. I have recently been travelling for 6 weeks, went to my studio the day after we arrived home, printed a nozzle check and everything was fine. In a couple of minutes I was printing a perfect 150cm x 100cm print. Such a good feeling!
Julie
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Another happy camper with a 7900 here. I represent the far low end of the spectrum with respect to print volume and user experience. This is my 2nd inkjet printer and first Espon which I purchased as a dealer tradeshow demo model in April. I print about once a week as photography is a hobby. Initially had to run cleaning pairs prior to printing sessions, but in the last month I've printed more and ran a cleaning pair only once. I think the strength of Epson is the ability to accurately differentiate tone levels to show subtle details in shadows, and I use "PrintShield" spray if desired for gloss differential on prints with significant areas of blown white highlights. I have this printer in my Colorado home where the weather has been unseasonally wet, and just measured the humidity @ 35%. I have the printer in the smallest closet possible ( http://www.ascent-design.com/photo/web/Closet_w_7900.pdf (http://www.ascent-design.com/photo/web/Closet_w_7900.pdf) ) without any ventilation or dust, and wonder if the low air circulation benefits the printer. This 7900 gets turned off when not in use.
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I wonder how these clogging issues relate to:
- low or high volume output (occasional private versus 24/7 commercial use)
- lower humidity vs higher humidty
I am an "occasional" user, sometimes going days without turning the printer on, often only printing 1 or 2 prints when I do use it. There are some days where I print quite a few prints, but those are rare.
That being said, my 11880 sees even less use, and it has been virtually clog free. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect similar results. Currently I have to run a cleaning cycle each time I start the printer up in the morning. Fortunately using the service mode CL1 clean, this never uses more than about 10 - 15ml of ink now. I'm hoping the printer will settle in like others and provide an experience similar to my 3800's and 11880.
I have had trouble through the winter (fairly dry), but the new printer that I have been working with for a couple of weeks has been during a very stormy June in Utah (over 300% of normal rainfall, humidity has been in the 30-40% range), and I am having more nozzle failures with it, despite the higher humidity.
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I am an "occasional" user, sometimes going days without turning the printer on, often only printing 1 or 2 prints when I do use it. There are some days where I print quite a few prints, but those are rare.
That being said, my 11880 sees even less use, and it has been virtually clog free. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect similar results. Currently I have to run a cleaning cycle each time I start the printer up in the morning. Fortunately using the service mode CL1 clean, this never uses more than about 10 - 15ml of ink now. I'm hoping the printer will settle in like others and provide an experience similar to my 3800's and 11880.
I have had trouble through the winter (fairly dry), but the new printer that I have been working with for a couple of weeks has been during a very stormy June in Utah (over 300% of normal rainfall, humidity has been in the 30-40% range), and I am having more nozzle failures with it, despite the higher humidity.
Wow, 10 to 15ml of ink for cleaning....okay you have a big beast....comes with the territory I guess :-)
Since february 2008 I'm running a Canon iPF5100, I've printed about 30 sq. M (320 sq. f), mainly print black and white (70%). So most of the colored ink is used on cleaning, Except grey and photogrey,all others are still the 90ml starter cartridges, all are now at 20% and yellow now says 'soon to replace'.
A rough estimat: In 17 month the printer used round and about 65ml (90ml starters minus filling of lines minus used at printing) of yellow ink for cleaning. For all twelve 12 cartridges that add's up to 1.5ml per day for cleaning. I've the printer on standby, it wakes up once a day to do a check/clean.
No clogs yet, but given the canon print head technology hopefully also not a replace head message soon....
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Having owned more inkjets than I care to count, our current 7900 probably clogs less than any of the others to date - perhaps maybe not the iPF5000 but certainly no more than that either - and we're super happy with it. Yes, still the odd clog and we've disabled all the auto stuff and we do manual checks each day, after ink swaps etc, but anyone running an inkjet should just factor in a realistic amount of wastage and then move on and enjoy the awesomely fast, quiet, and superb quality machine it is!
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I was going to just finish reading this thread and move on...but the quote from bassanova, just stopped me and reminded me of a couple years back, and felt I should share my experience and perhaps relate to those that might have felt or concluded things or on the fence about the same experiences.
anyone running an inkjet should just factor in a realistic amount of wastage and then move on
Thats a problem. While the statement can cover any printer, ...there are other concerns that someone in the market for a new machine should consider.
I don't think the printer should be my first thought when I walks in the studio..."ooh, I better feed it some ink before it makes a mess of thing". I rather forget it is there until I need it, and get a print from it without a hicup. Or go on vacation, leave it on/off, and come back in a week, throw a file at it, get the print. That is a no nonsense printer.
I have the older Desigjet130, and in almost 2 YEARS I have needed to change ONE printhead cartridge (HP sent 2 for me, due to out of date), with NO nozzle checks or cleanings, PERIOD.
( I can just see now after I said it, a number of problems spring up at me...hahaha). but really, After doing that for years with the Epson, I feel liberated.
I do love the "charactor" of the Epsons print, but I certainly dont miss it with all else that comes in. today i did a testprint for image quality, and it was perfect with no nozzle problems. Thats what I expect from a printer that is at the entry Pro level, specially at the production pro level.
Even the most trouble free users are either always running a clog check or clean cycle, or the printer is running almost nonstop...and that is a great thing in production. But humidity? and not printing daily causing issues? This really should be unacceptable at a pro level. I know it may sound a bit harsh, but come on! why do some companies address areas of a problem and another cannot correct things for YEARS. Unless it makes them more money selling ink...but thats a underhanded business model.
I have used Epsons from the begining...The Epson Stylus Color, I thought the prints were unreal...as if I were dreaming that the photo was coming out of the printer.
Then some 980?, then the 1280, then the 3000, then the Pro5000 with a hardware RIP($$$), stand the full features, then the Pro4000, and when I was working at a company with the 7500, that was the last I used. Since then HP had been improving their print quality. And they had finally caught up...
After these years, I still read the same or related issues on the Epson's newer machines. Its a love and hate relationship, or a acceptance of the daily tuning before things get going, or you change to something reliable. For all I know the HP Z series maybe experiencing its own issues (soon I will be looking at them before getting the Z3200). UV inks can be some of the issue, but I dont think all as before the UV Epson had clog problems. No machine is perfect.
When you add up the cleaning, the clogging, the daily tune to keep things smooth running, the ink wasting and humidity level(?) etc... I come to think that those are the folks that are willing to sacrifice for the beautiful output the Epson deilvers without a doubt. I remember having one of my files printed on the Epson 7600 vs the DJ130 I had access to..... and I thought, wow, the charactor out of the 7600 withOUT a RIP, was just bliss, beautiful, and ACCURATE tones and smooth transitions. Without the RIP on the HP, I cursed it. After the RIP on the HP, I purchased it(DJ130). I was looking for my particular needs in color accuracy, more than anything Fine Art related, But if tone, color and transitions are improved on the HP Z vs the 130, I can't think of a reason Not to get the HP. For those that have been there and done that apples to apples comparison, and still pick the Epson...I applaud you.
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Having owned more inkjets than I care to count my 7900 possibly clogs more than all the others put together.
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Deleted.
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Hello All,
Thank you all for your reports. They help fill out the spectrum of experience folks are having. While we may not yet have the "perfect printer" what we do have today is incredible. I'm psyched that I have the opportunity to work with these amazing machines.
Best,
Michael
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... but anyone running an inkjet should just factor in a realistic amount of wastage and then move on ...
"Realistic" depends on whether you are running a Canon or HP. Those two have a reasonable and "realistic" amount of ink expended in keeping themselves unclogged. Epson wastage is ridiculous.
Tom
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"Realistic" depends on whether you are running a Canon or HP. Those two have a reasonable and "realistic" amount of ink expended in keeping themselves unclogged. Epson wastage is ridiculous.
Tom
My two 3800's and my 11880 have used less ink put together than my ipf6100 for clog maintenance. The Canon uses far more ink to remain "clog" free (because it really does clog, it just hides it well) than most realize. While I don't count the canon excessive, I also believe that the recent Epson's are also very good.
Despite some problematic 7900/9900 it appears many user's are not experiencing problems, and I remain optimistic that Epson will resolve mine. I do know that the 7900 has superior output to anything I have ever used before ... I will continue to work with Epson until the printer performs as they and I expect it to. (they have told me when I've called that having to clean it 3 or 4 times a week at startup is not normal and is excessive).
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My two 3800's and my 11880 have used less ink put together than my ipf6100 for clog maintenance. The Canon uses far more ink to remain "clog" free (because it really does clog, it just hides it well) than most realize. While I don't count the canon excessive, I also believe that the recent Epson's are also very good.
Wayne,
A friend has both the iPF9000 and the 11880. The Canon served him well in printing many square meters over two years. He didn't observe excessive ink use compared to the Epsons 9600-9800 he owned at the same time. The Canon carts emptied to a few ml left. The iPF9000 had several mechanical problems though, flat cables to the head lasted maybe 6-8 months, several heads replaced. Right now it isn't working properly either. The 3 months old 11880 is doing a good job. He disabled the cleaning ritual like more have done. The one thing he doesn't like is the ink left in the cart when the printer says it should be replaced, 100 ml in a cart left is a lot. He inserts them again and keeps track of their weight. What do you do to keep that ink waste low?
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
New: Dinkla Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html (http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html)
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The problematic "clogging" I experienced during my 7900's first month of service has recurred. Details at http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=35627 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=35627).
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Wayne,
A friend has both the iPF9000 and the 11880. The Canon served him well in printing many square meters over two years. He didn't observe excessive ink use compared to the Epsons 9600-9800 he owned at the same time. The Canon carts emptied to a few ml left. The iPF9000 had several mechanical problems though, flat cables to the head lasted maybe 6-8 months, several heads replaced. Right now it isn't working properly either. The 3 months old 11880 is doing a good job. He disabled the cleaning ritual like more have done. The one thing he doesn't like is the ink left in the cart when the printer says it should be replaced, 100 ml in a cart left is a lot. He inserts them again and keeps track of their weight. What do you do to keep that ink waste low?
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
New: Dinkla Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html (http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html)
Does he replace the cartridge when the printer says it is low, or does he wait until it actually runs out of ink during a job then replace it? I haven't experienced this, but I'll admit I've never opened a cartridge to see how much ink is in them. I know when I shake an empty cartridge I can't really hear or feel any ink moving around, and the empty one is substantially lighter than it's replacement.
The printer will tell you to replace it when it is at about 10%, but I usually wait until it stops during a job to replace it.
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Try weighing a full one, and then the "empty" cart. interesting what the difference maybe.
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Does he replace the cartridge when the printer says it is low, or does he wait until it actually runs out of ink during a job then replace it? I haven't experienced this, but I'll admit I've never opened a cartridge to see how much ink is in them. I know when I shake an empty cartridge I can't really hear or feel any ink moving around, and the empty one is substantially lighter than it's replacement.
The printer will tell you to replace it when it is at about 10%, but I usually wait until it stops during a job to replace it.
The ink is in a sac or at least is on HP carts. When there is a little left you couldn't hear or feel it moving about as it is pretty dissipated. I've opened a fair amount of them and there isn't more than 3 to 5ml max. When the bongers (pumps) can no longer pressure the valve open at the bottom of the cartridge the printer is told to stop at which time you can swap carts. True enough at this level of being empty there are image quality issues. IF it's a dark print it's going to suffer if it's a dark ink cart, but light prints and or an ink that is not much in the print line will go unnoticed.
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Neil!...Great to see you here. Came across a few of your posts. You helped me out a few years back with some HP DJ130 profiles. I don't know if you remember. You suggested I try a RIP, and I did(EFI). I have not looked back since. Maybe sooner or later I will try the Z3200.
Neil...
Love your work, and your dedication towards others in the field. Your work has been at least inspiring.
I have opened up an Epson cart sometime back, and it had a sponge inside.
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The printer will tell you to replace it when it is at about 10%, but I usually wait until it stops during a job to replace it.
That is what he now intends to do but also keeping an eye on the cart weight if larger jobs have to be done.
I have to say that the Z3100/3200 keep good track of what is left and I usually put in a new cart when a larger job is there, to replace the near empty ones on less important jobs.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
New: Dinkla Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html (http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html)
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I have to say that the Z3100/3200 keep good track of what is left and I usually put in a new cart when a larger job is there, to replace the near empty ones on less important jobs.
I never had a problem replacing carts mid-job with my Epson 9600. The print always turned out fine.
Not so with my HP Z3200! On the three occasions that I replaced a Z3200 cartridge mid-job the print was ruined with a clear band running across at the point of cartridge change. So now I do just as Ernst states above and change any low cartridges (if they are reported at about 10ml) before starting a larger job.
But is it ok to reinsert nearly empty Z3200 carts for smaller jobs? I haven't tried this and I am wondering if this is a good idea?
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I never had a problem replacing carts mid-job with my Epson 9600. The print always turned out fine.
Not so with my HP Z3200! On the three occasions that I replaced a Z3200 cartridge mid-job the print was ruined with a clear band running across at the point of cartridge change. So now I do just as Ernst states above and change any low cartridges (if they are reported at about 10ml) before starting a larger job.
But is it ok to reinsert nearly empty Z3200 carts for smaller jobs? I haven't tried this and I am wondering if this is a good idea?
Shake R&R the old cart before inserting. And the HP cart pump/agitator does a nice job to keep cart content consistent in the printer over the usable period. I did not have any problems so far. There are also jobs like text pages where MK or PK is used mainly and that's a good opportunity to empty the black carts. More recently I preserved some of the near empty cart content to let an office printer do its job but that one is only CMYK.
There may be an even nicer Edelweiss growing at the edge of the cliff with third party inks but I am happy enough with the economic Vivera bouquet.
In reflection: must be a Dutchman writing that line :-)
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
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There may be an even nicer Edelweiss growing at the edge of the cliff with third party inks but I am happy enough with the economic Vivera bouquet.
In reflection: must be a Dutchman writing that line :-)
Vivera Vivera
Every morning you greet me
Small and white
Clean and bright
You look happy to meet me
Blossom of snow may you bloom and grow
Bloom and grow forever
Vivera Vivera
Bless my Z3200 forever