Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: geesbert on May 15, 2009, 04:50:25 pm
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today i was in discussion about a decently sized, interesting job, when the guy from the agency, which I haven't worked for yet and who is also the art director for this job, suddenly mentions that he is expecting a 10% share of my fee, as a provision to get me in contact with the client. I told him to get lost and that no way in my life I would do that. I guess I am not getting this one...
since then I asked around, just to learn how common this is and that it is strange that I havent encountered it yet. so, is it really common? what to do? forget about those jobs or try to arrange yourself with those leeches?
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Yeh One shitty end of the business. Years ago it used to Coke,Alcohol,Hookers and Discos...:+}
RE: Miami Beach...:+]
Still is in some groups.
I try everyday to make my business a One man job b/c I hate to have to pay some lazy *** for the in between.
Most Big agencies are Pathetic and just copy other Big ads, Wow really difficult and they get paid Big $$ for offering a copy of other campaigns.
Happens to me everyday.. I get a couple of Vogues pictures or ads and they want me to copy it but with their shitty clothing..
But Like Andre mentioned, you might be gaining 90% of what you did not have. But for the guy to mention it so obviuosly is crooked if you ask me!!
These guys should be taken out back and their legs Broken like the good ole days...:+}
Snook
This post has been edited by a Moderator. Do not use profane offensive language in this Forum.[/i]
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Does sound sleazy. I may have taken to job if it looked good and if the agency is one where I would want future work. Since they will likely take months to pay you after you've done the work, you would have plenty of time to ask someone else at the agency (maybe someone in accounting who would be getting your invoice) if this 10% "taste" as Tony Soprano would call it, was normal at their agency. There's a good chance this agent you were interacting with was going under the table, and would be reprimanded/fired for doing this. But maybe this is normal for them, in which case do the job and charge 10% more next time you work with them.
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Does sound sleazy. I may have taken to job if it looked good and if the agency is one where I would want future work. Since they will likely take months to pay you after you've done the work, you would have plenty of time to ask someone else at the agency (maybe someone in accounting who would be getting your invoice) if this 10% "taste" as Tony Soprano would call it, was normal at their agency. There's a good chance this agent you were interacting with was going under the table, and would be reprimanded/fired for doing this. But maybe this is normal for them, in which case do the job and charge 10% more next time you work with them.
And what would be the benefit to geesbert for such investigation? At best he'd get a possibly influential AD fired (and not get the job), at worst he'll burn bridges with the AD, the agency, and possibly local industry heads (and not get the job).
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I don't know if I'd call it an "investigation" as much as a simple, honest question. No? If you are asking here on a forum, why not ask someone at the agency instead, like maybe the person who is responsible for paying people and who sees other photographers invoices.
Anyway feppe, it's valid research, IMO. I don't go around giving anyone a percentage of things unless I know it's legit. He's already lost the job ("burned the bridge") by saying no to the fee, so why not ask instead next time?
What if the agent had said 30%? Would you ask if it's normal business practice then?
I have my doubts about just how "influential" this AD is going to be in the long run if he goes around car jacking people in the industry. He won't last long. At least I don't think he would in NY. He'd be fired a few times, and then he'd have a hard time finding work. People talk.
But again, if this is common at their advertising agency (they all get 10% when they connect photographer with client), then that's okay if you want to play spit ball with them. Like I said, charge an extra 10% Spit Ball fee next time you work for them, and you'll be Even Steven.
I don't think I have ever lost a job by asking legitimate questions about billing.
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Sleazy? How about its illegal! I had an agency person ask me for a kick back once, and told the art buyer to take a leap. I still worked with other art directors and buyers at the agency. I never said anything to anyone, but a few months later they where gone. With work this slow I would have maybe taken the offer, and then asked after getting payment for an invoice from them and SS# for tax purposes. See how fast they come up with that info.
BTW, if someone at the agency is getting a cut from your check you generally get the money faster as well since it becomes not just my money but our money. I have to be very corrupted person since I do not see nothing sleazy in anybody getting a cut and I even report it on my IRS form. Maybe I have spend to much time in industrial construction business before.
Andre
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BTW, if someone at the agency is getting a cut from your check you generally get the money faster as well since it becomes not just my money but our money. I have to be very corrupted person since I do not see nothing sleazy in anybody getting a cut and I even report it on my IRS form. Maybe I have spend to much time in industrial construction business before.
Andre
Then I guess they are not booking you for your talent but for the kickbacks.
Usually agency or reps get a %. Not some sleeze bag in and advertising agency.
I guess the models have to sleep with the photographer mentality is what your saying also?
Hopefully all the sleezy people will be banished in 12 21 2012... Cannot wait.
Unfortunately I do know what you mean and it is a catch 22 situation, but these dirt bags should be fired and if the client knew about it maybe they would change agency.
Conforming to it just makes it worse I have to say, but I do understand why, to maybe get the job.. But.... Are you sleeping ok in the night?
AD from agency are like sleezy model bookers.. they last about a couple of months then off to the next agency.
I truly Hate these sleeze bags but they are a factor...
Snook
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today i was in discussion about a decently sized, interesting job, when the guy from the agency, which I haven't worked for yet and who is also the art director for this job, suddenly mentions that he is expecting a 10% share of my fee, as a provision to get me in contact with the client. I told him to get lost and that no way in my life I would do that. I guess I am not getting this one...
since then I asked around, just to learn how common this is and that it is strange that I havent encountered it yet. so, is it really common? what to do? forget about those jobs or try to arrange yourself with those leeches?
I say pay the money and see where it goes, try to put your fee up as much as you can above normal to cover it or fudge it in costs . It might be a one off , and if you don't do it someone else will.
I have only had to do this once, and it has gained me a solid regular client at no further commissions ( or "tastes" , I like that) so it was a positive outcome, although I was dubious at the time .
In the past I have had a client complaining to me about the cost of photography then to later find the agency he was working through had been marking it up nearly 100%! . The agency ( and me) lost the work eventually but through no fault of mine. Of course fairly standard practise in some areas and commission based clients like marketers or print brokers will mark work up every time, but seldom by that much. Very interesting discussion thread !
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Yes, of course, if you don't do it, someone else surely will. But do you want to do it? Where does it stop? Today it's 10%. Tomorrow it could be 30% or something else. Supposing the AD wants you to shoot a major campaign in Singapore, which would get you enough money to retire, or at least buy two Phase One P65+ backs at list price without going through secret handshakes. The 'taste' is to carry a small package of white powder for the AD while he's there with you.
Just remember, it always starts with small things.
Cheers,
Kumar
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Hi All,
Yes thay all want a share of our "pie" now
I just received this memo from one of Australaisa's top two Magazine/Newspaper Publishers-- we've got to give them 15%!
Ah well If I remember how to do it-- I think it's called markup!
Des
[attachment=13700:Fees.jpg]
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'Dis has got to be thu best Thread eva' on this forum...
All da' while I tought it wuz gonna be Doug Peterson wantin' 10 percent back from every job youz shot wit his P45 rental.
Respectfully,
Tony Soprano
Waste Management Inc.
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well i dont like that they expect it, arrogance ticks me off. i do offer a 5-10% first time client discount that seems to help out. i remember getting one once from a CD printing place and thought it was a nice gesture. and i use it to get a $1040 job in to the 900s just to make it seem reasonable...one of those visual bars...985 seems affordable...1035.....he wants over 1000 dollars! get out! (im in a small town btw).
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You pay or the next guy will. Plain and simple. There is less good jobs then good photogs now days. It holds true in any industry and unless you are THE GUY that everybody wants, you consider it a finder fee and you pay.
I pay referral fees and do verbally advertise it to all my clients. It is much cheaper than advertising. To me I am not loosing 10% but I am gaining 90% I would never have otherwise.
Little financial incentive goes very long way. People are way more likely to show you images to other potential customers and brag about their great experience with you.
With AD's and others if it is not money than it is the great food and entertainment which generally cost more at the end.
Andre
there is a big difference between being told upfront to kick back some money and treating your good client to some stuff down the road..or offer a commision/finder fee.
I would say no to the first..but I have given some pretty nice gifts of appreciation to AD's who continued to direct jobs my way. Nowadays most agencies make you sign a vender agreement that says you will not give any gifts to anyone..but funny how the props disappear after a shoot..
I have no problem if you want to give referral fees, you are calling the shots and that is how it ought to be.. hell I will give anyone reading this 10% if you actually responsible for getting me a job..a big ole national campaign at full tilt fees.. I would do as much as 25%.. This is what we do, it aint art or charity work..it's business.
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Well, I would avoid this kind of "jokes" in Singapore: they certainly wont laugh about it, if caught.
The last one doing this was an Australian national and he lost his life in the Changi jail, one morning at 6.00am about 2 years ago: it happened that I just arrived that morning at that time at Changi airport: it gives you a strange feeling, believe me, and no way to buy oneself out of this nightmare.
Cheers,
Thierry
The 'taste' is to carry a small package of white powder for the AD while he's there with you.
Kumar
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Well, I would avoid this kind of "jokes" in Singapore: they certainly wont laugh about it, if caught.
The last one doing this was an Australian national and he lost his life in the Changi jail, one morning at 6.00am about 2 years ago: it happened that I just arrived that morning at that time at Changi airport: it gives you a strange feeling, believe me, and no way to buy oneself out of this nightmare.
Cheers,
Thierry
Wasn't a joke. I was trying to illustrate how things can, and do happen. Not all the people executed for drug related offences were professional smugglers. The death penalty is mandatory for some offences, even in such a case where the trial judge accepted there was "no direct evidence that he knew the capsules contained diamorphine".
As I said, it starts with the small things - like a 10% kickback.
Cheers,
Kumar
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Dear Kumar,
I can imagine that you know the law quite well, in Singapore. I was simply warning some who might not know it.
While death penalty for drug offences is also mandatory in Indonesia (or some other countries) and handed-over quite easily, there is always and still a possibility to "buy" oneself out of this situation, not in Singapore. Even a personal intervention of AU Prime Minister Howard to the Singaporean governement in favor of this AU citizen (who was btw carrying it for his own consumption and not a professinal smuggler, and who was in transit before returning home) did change nothing and the sentence was carried out without even a delay.
People should know it.
Cheers,
Thierry
Wasn't a joke. I was trying to illustrate how things can, and do happen. Not all the people executed for drug related offences were professional smugglers. The death penalty is mandatory for some offences, even in such a case where the trial judge accepted there was "no direct evidence that he knew the capsules contained diamorphine".
As I said, it starts with the small things - like a 10% kickback.
Cheers,
Kumar
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my stock agent in the US gets 50%
my rep in the US I think puts at least 60% on top of my fee
my stock agent in Europe gets 50%
my rep in China will get 30%
my worldwide rep must also put at least 60% on top.
After all that my wife gets 90%
aaah the business of photography!!!
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Spitball
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A spitball is an illegal baseball pitch in which the ball has been altered by the application of saliva, petroleum jelly, or some other foreign substance.
Such a pitch presents an additional challenge to the hitter because it causes the ball to move atypically during its approach due to the altered wind-resistance and weight on one side of the ball.
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[quote name='ThierryH' date='May 16 2009, 12:27 PM' post='284066'
I can imagine that you know the law quite well, in Singapore.
[/quote]
No personal experience! I've been there a few dozen times, and was struck by the speed at which the law moves. Also, as you noted, appeals from Prime Ministers and Presidents are routinely ignored. I recall one incident about fifteen years ago, when a young American was flogged for spray-painting cars with graffiti. Clinton couldn't do a thing about it.
Cheers,
Kumar
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I think it's very simple.
Do you want the job, yes or no.
If you don't pass it and expect no further jobs from that guy, if you want to make money and get more work from him, share the 10% and raise your fee by 10% next time he/she hires you.
In the end it's all very simple, smile and take the hit.
Next time raise your fee and smile the real smile.
Remember that there are alot of photographers out there wanting to do jobs for free or for less than most pros will if you want to stay on top or working you will have to also learn people skills.
One of those people skills to make everyone happy.
Also when the AD earns money from hiring you you can bet that they will hire you the next time again.
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Hi All,
Yes thay all want a share of our "pie" now
I just received this memo from one of Australaisa's top two Magazine/Newspaper Publishers-- we've got to give them 15%!
Ah well If I remember how to do it-- I think it's called markup!
Des
[attachment=13700:Fees.jpg]
Hi Des,
Thanks for this. I heard that Fairfax was cutting back. If I go to my suppliers and ask for a 15% discount, I really wonder what they will say . On the other subject of an AD asking for a 10% kickback - we've heard of this, though thank goodness, we've never been asked - I think they probably know better. Talk about setting bad precedents for the industry.
Denis
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I think it's very simple.
Do you want the job, yes or no.
If you don't pass it and expect no further jobs from that guy, if you want to make money and get more work from him, share the 10% and raise your fee by 10% next time he/she hires you.
In the end it's all very simple, smile and take the hit.
Next time raise your fee and smile the real smile.
Remember that there are alot of photographers out there wanting to do jobs for free or for less than most pros will if you want to stay on top or working you will have to also learn people skills.
One of those people skills to make everyone happy.
Also when the AD earns money from hiring you you can bet that they will hire you the next time again.
Is it so simple? Getting involved in the likely illegal and definitely unethical practices of one art director who's taking advantage of others. It's no different than giving the mafia their cut of "protection" money to be allowed to stay in business. It's very clear to an advertising agency, or the agencies client, that art directors taking kickbacks is not in their best interests. It means the art director is not choosing the photographer with the right work at the right price, they are instead looking for an unethical photographer who's willing to "play ball". Any agency here in Los Angeles would fire an art director found to be doing this, and would also cease working with the photographers involved.
This practice is not common here in the United States. It would be considered a rare exception to standard practice, and could put your business and reputation at great risk.
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From the Cornell University Law School:
http://topics.law.cornell.edu/wex/Kickbacks (http://topics.law.cornell.edu/wex/Kickbacks)
"kickbacks: an overview
A "kickback" is a term used to refer to a misappropriation of funds that enriches a person of power or influence who uses the power or influence to make a different individual, organization, or company richer. Often, kickbacks result from a corrupt bidding scheme. Through corrupt bidding, the official can award the contract to a company, even though the company did not place the lowest bid. The company makes profit by having been awarded the bid and getting to perform the contract. In exchange for this corrupt practice, the company pays the official a portion of the profits. This portion is the “kickback.”
Such a practice falls within a sphere practices often referred to as “anti-competitive practices.” Organized crime has been traced to using kickbacks for many years. Some also consider kickbacks to be a type of bribery.
See White-collar crime."
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From the Cornell University Law School:
http://topics.law.cornell.edu/wex/Kickbacks (http://topics.law.cornell.edu/wex/Kickbacks)
"kickbacks: an overview
A "kickback" is a term used to refer to a misappropriation of funds that enriches a person of power or influence who uses the power or influence to make a different individual, organization, or company richer. Often, kickbacks result from a corrupt bidding scheme. Through corrupt bidding, the official can award the contract to a company, even though the company did not place the lowest bid. The company makes profit by having been awarded the bid and getting to perform the contract. In exchange for this corrupt practice, the company pays the official a portion of the profits. This portion is the “kickback.”
Such a practice falls within a sphere practices often referred to as “anti-competitive practices.” Organized crime has been traced to using kickbacks for many years. Some also consider kickbacks to be a type of bribery.
See White-collar crime."
Thank you for this!
Denis
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Is it so simple? Getting involved in the likely illegal and definitely unethical practices of one art director who's taking advantage of others. It's no different than giving the mafia their cut of "protection" money to be allowed to stay in business. It's very clear to an advertising agency, or the agencies client, that art directors taking kickbacks is not in their best interests. It means the art director is not choosing the photographer with the right work at the right price, they are instead looking for an unethical photographer who's willing to "play ball". Any agency here in Los Angeles would fire an art director found to be doing this, and would also cease working with the photographers involved.
This practice is not common here in the United States. It would be considered a rare exception to standard practice, and could put your business and reputation at great risk.
Eric this is so true.
It is pure and simple bribery; unethical business and everyone here should distance themselves from photographers like Frank Dorhoff and Andre Napier and their way of morality.
Remember that there are alot of photographers out there wanting to do jobs for free or for less than most pros will if you want to stay on top or working you will have to also learn people skills.
One of those people skills to make everyone happy.
Also when the AD earns money from hiring you you can bet that they will hire you the next time again.
I hope Elinchrom and Leaf are reading this thread and distance themselves from Mr. Dorhoff - encouraging fellow photographers to get involved in bribery should have you banned from every forum.
Andre, I would worry if some photographer you "won" a job from would send this link to the IRS, I think you could be in deep trouble.
The funny part of this thread is Paul More buying a gun for his client, I wonder what a psychoanalyst would think of this story - or perhaps it is just protection from the mafia who also wants a cut of the deal
Stefan you did the right thing and protected your business and name in the long run - bravo.
T
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Remember that there are alot of photographers out there wanting to do jobs for free or for less than most pros will if you want to stay on top or working you will have to also learn people skills.
One of those people skills to make everyone happy.
Also when the AD earns money from hiring you you can bet that they will hire you the next time again.
I guess I don't consider paying bribes to be "people skills."
Remember that there are alot of photographers out there wanting to do jobs for free
Also, I don't run my business from a position of desperation. (read: I will not do whatever I *imagine* the next underhanded businessman might do in order to get some work.) I believe I would run it into the ground if that were the case. Like I said earlier Frank, what if you did the job and next time this AD says: times are tough, so now we are asking for 50%, every time you work?? "It's protection money - I'm protecting you from losing the job."
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From the Cornell University Law School:
http://topics.law.cornell.edu/wex/Kickbacks (http://topics.law.cornell.edu/wex/Kickbacks)
"kickbacks: an overview
A "kickback" is a term used to refer to a misappropriation of funds that enriches a person of power or influence who uses the power or influence to make a different individual, organization, or company richer. Often, kickbacks result from a corrupt bidding scheme. Through corrupt bidding, the official can award the contract to a company, even though the company did not place the lowest bid. The company makes profit by having been awarded the bid and getting to perform the contract. In exchange for this corrupt practice, the company pays the official a portion of the profits. This portion is the “kickback.”
Such a practice falls within a sphere practices often referred to as “anti-competitive practices.” Organized crime has been traced to using kickbacks for many years. Some also consider kickbacks to be a type of bribery.
See White-collar crime."
so according to this definition, the kick back only has to be a portion of profit not the total billing? thats not so steep then is it? .......
as i write from shanghai, its funny to read so much surprise at what is really a very common practice here in China - one i do not resort to , i might add, as aside from the moral dilemma, it does absolutely nothing to improve and stimulate real creative development of individuals or the industry as a whole....and god knows this industry here still needs developing.
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What a response......jeez
First of all.
The term kick back is not know by me.
What I got from what was posted is that a certain AD has a job offer but has one condition, he wants 10% for getting you that job.
In that case you will have to choose for yourself what you want to do.
In other words if the AD is hiring the photographer for a job and he asks 10% for getting you the job I don't see this as MAFFIA practice.
It's not 100% clean of course but MAFFIA ?
The TS asked what to do, my answer was simple if you want the job you will do it, if you don't want the job don't.
I know that if it's not ILLEGAL I would have no problems with it if the job is something I really want.
IF IT'S ILLEGAL or CONTRACT BREACH I would NEVER EVER do it.
But again I don't know the term kick back as the discription given a few posts above this one.
In my mind the TS just asked what to do if someone that has a job for him wants 10% "finders-fee" in that case I see no problem.
@Lisa,
I never got the intention from the TS that this was the case.
If he/she would do it that way the answer is simple, shoot it yourself.
However again, and I really stress this, if it's seen as a simple "finders-fee" with no bad intentions I see no problem.
To make things clear I'm not connected to an agency, or bureau.
The work I do is all free lance so there are no contracts (except between me and the client or the person hiring me (in this case that would be the AD)), no middleman etc.
IF I were conected with a bureau I would of course obbey to their rules.
But I write my own invoices so again if it's a good coorperation and a "finders-fee" I see no problem.
@Toby,
I don't know what I ever did to you except maybe you're green with envy because those responses are WAY WAY out of line and totally uncalled for.
The coorperation I have with Elinchrom and in smaller form with Leaf is based on mutual respect and trust.
Something that you will have to learn I guess, especially the respect thing.
Normally that happens when you grow up........
Sorry for the blund response I'm normally a bit more "civil" but this is way out of line and borders insult and to be honest I don't have to take that from a nobody.
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Hi All,
Yes thay all want a share of our "pie" now
I just received this memo from one of Australaisa's top two Magazine/Newspaper Publishers-- we've got to give them 15%!
Ah well If I remember how to do it-- I think it's called markup!
Des
[attachment=13700:Fees.jpg]
good to see them being honest. shame they didnt realise the aussie dollar actually been getting better....
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@ Frank: in the European Union bribery, even at business level, is ILLEGAL. ( I mean not only bribing legislative powers is illegal)
@ OP/ Stefan: in Germany the Anti-Corruption law is part of the criminal code and offenses can be punished with jail time. You could be prosecuted for bribing the AD if a prosecuter wishes to open a case on this. Just remember the Siemens case not so long ago.
Technically ( by law) everything offered to a business partner for free in order to gain an advantage can be considered bribery.
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I heard a rumor that fairfax was going to go to a local photo-school and use the students to shoot stories for free. All under the guise of nurturing talent.
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@ Frank: in the European Union bribery, even at business level, is ILLEGAL. ( I mean not only bribing legislative powers is illegal)
I understand but I never saw it as bribing, maybe my fault.
In my view the TS would get an invoice for his work, in other words a normal business deal.
If you read the first post, the guy asking the 10% is working for the agency and the AD, I expect the agency to bill you and on that bill the 10% is shown.
Later on in the thread people are making it an under the table maffia like payment.
My response was purely for those situations were an agency wants 10% more because it's a bigger job or a client that can give you more work in the future.
AGAIN doing something ILLEGAL or in this case doing something like a payment off the papers is not something I would advise or do.
My response was again purely based on the idea I got from the first post that normally they bill you for ammount X only and for this client they will bill you ammount X plus 10% of your fee.
In that case I really don't see anything wrong, and especially not worth the ridicilous attack to me as a person by Toby.
Again I don't know the term kick back as it was described later on, in that case my response would be different of course.
Risking your reputation or business for a job is NEVER a good thing.
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I understand but I never saw it as bribing, maybe my fault.
In my view the TS would get an invoice for his work, in other words a normal business deal.
If you read the first post, the guy asking the 10%, is working for the agency and the AD, I expect the agency to bill you and on that bill the 10% is shown.
Later on in the thread people are making it an under the table maffia like payment.
Think about it. Why should the guy/ AD ask for 10% of the photographers share if he has to write a bill? He want s the money cash for sure. It would be easier for the agency to mark up the photographers bill by 10 % and pass it to the AD, if the whole think would be a legal way to make money.
And the whole issue is about ethics, business ethics. With one AD it is 10% in greens, for the next one you pay the hooker or the white residue around the nostrils???? "Finders-fee"!? Just asking.
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it would definitively help "Toby1014" to live in one of these countries where briberies/kickbacks and other under-the-table-money are common practices to get things done, to see things under a different light. Life is not that easy and simple for all, sometimes one has to adapt to the existing "culture" and habits.
Am I culprit if I am ready to pay 500 Thai Bath to a corrupt policeman (for locals it's 50 Bath), instead of having to drive through Bangkok to the police station to pay my fine and get my passport back, with 1/2 day lost? Am I culprit if I hire a middle-man and pay him 5'000 Thai Bath to get my 1-year visa in a day and without hassle, instead of having to go myself a few times without the certainty to get it and being asked each time different documents? Am I culprit to make use of a fictive job contract (paid for) to get a working permit, when otherwise it is almost impossible under certain circumstances? I can continue with many other examples. Therefore, it does not surprise me to have such practices in China: it happens at all levels, in photography and elsewhere, and I have experienced it all the time.
Coming from Germany, though, it sounds a bit different and certainly not the norm, IMO. In other words, I am convinced that most of the jobs to be done can be won the "normal" way, with the talent and skills of the photographers. I certainly won't accept to pay this "fee".
But would I have to work in Asia/South-East Asia, I am not really sure what would be my response: it is too often the only way to get forward, being talented or not.
Difficult question with no black or white answer, for me.
Thierry
as i write from shanghai, its funny to read so much surprise at what is really a very common practice here in China - one i do not resort to , i might add, as aside from the moral dilemma, it does absolutely nothing to improve and stimulate real creative development of individuals or the industry as a whole....and god knows this industry here still needs developing.
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Think about it. Why should the guy/ AD ask for 10% of the photographers share if he has to write a bill? He want s the money cash for sure. It would easier for the agency to mark up the photographers bill by 10 % if the whole think would be a legal way to make money.
And the whole issue is about ethics, business ethics. With one AD it is 10% in greens, for the next one you pay the hooker or the white residue around the nostrils???? "Finders-fee"!? Just asking.
As mentioned before I'm not connected to an agency.
I can imagine that agencies will normally charge a certain ammount or percentage that's fixed.
In my view in this case it was 10% higher because it was a bigger/more interesting/higher profile customer.
In that case you have to think about it, go for the job and earn less or loose the job and maybe also some more work in that segment.
But again that's how I read it, and I could 100% be wrong.
That's why I changed my post that if indeed it was an under the tafel transaction I would NOT advise it or DO it.
When you explain it like this I see exactly what you mean, but I was thinking totally different......
Maybe I'm silently hoping that most people are good in their intentions.
It's always difficult to get everything 100% right in three lines on a forum, so that's were my idea of the case came from.
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@ Thierry: I see your point, but if you do this "bribery" in order to make better business for a German company, the German state can prosecute you for doing this, because IT IS against German Law. Even when it happened somewhere else on the planet. Again, Siemens is a prominent case for this.
I don't think it is only a question of bending morality a little bit, because: Where do you draw the line? What is immoral? What would you not do, to get things done? No offense, just asking!
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I'm pretty sure the OP means with agency, the agency the AD works for, not the photogs agency/ rep/ whatever.
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Heinrich,
yes, that is also to be considered, not making oneself prosecutable in another country.
The line is really difficult to draw in Asia: as a foreigner one has "some" morality, one tries to fight against such immoral behaviors, then one realizes that one cannot change the system and that it is much related to the education, and eventually one is caught in the "game" simply because things get done this way.
That is also the reason why I am so happy to be able to get back to Europe, believe me. Moreover, it gives another light to my children.
Thierry
@ Thierry: I see your point, but if you do this "bribery" in order to make better business for a German company, the German state can prosecute you for doing this, because IT IS against German Law. Even when it happened somewhere else on the planet. Again, Siemens is a prominent case for this.
I don't think it is only a question of bending morality a little bit, because: Where do you draw the line? What is immoral? What would you not do, to get things done? No offense, just asking!
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I understand but I never saw it as bribing, maybe my fault.
In my view the TS would get an invoice for his work, in other words a normal business deal.
If you read the first post, the guy asking the 10% is working for the agency and the AD, I expect the agency to bill you and on that bill the 10% is shown.
Later on in the thread people are making it an under the table maffia like payment.
My response was purely for those situations were an agency wants 10% more because it's a bigger job or a client that can give you more work in the future.
AGAIN doing something ILLEGAL or in this case doing something like a payment off the papers is not something I would advise or do.
My response was again purely based on the idea I got from the first post that normally they bill you for ammount X only and for this client they will bill you ammount X plus 10% of your fee.
In that case I really don't see anything wrong, and especially not worth the ridicilous attack to me as a person by Toby.
Again I don't know the term kick back as it was described later on, in that case my response would be different of course.
Risking your reputation or business for a job is NEVER a good thing.
I think that there has also been a little confusion on this thread about the photographers agent and the advertising agency. When anyone just says "agent" or "agency" it's hard to know what their talking about.
I took the first post to mean the art director at the agency expected a kickback. The art director did not "get" the photographer a job, they "gave" the photographer a job. I think most advertising agencies and their clients would fire an art director who individually asked for a kickback because it is a conflict of interest with their primary function. The art director can not properly serve the needs of the ad agency and client while at the same time working only with the photographers who give kickbacks.
I googled the term kickback. Most of the stories were about employees getting fired for the practice, and often going to jail for the tax evasion and document falsification that went hand in hand with the kickbacks.
There were also stories about companies expecting kickbacks from other companies. Because they make the rules and agree to contracts, it is not illegal. Here is a little story that sounds like the experience that Andre had back in another life. It could be argued that this kickback scheme is not in the best interest of the condo owners, but the company tries to argue their side anyway. It is a conlict of interest in my view, and can't really serve the condo owners.... http://www.suntimes.com/business/roeder/15...oeder06.article (http://www.suntimes.com/business/roeder/1559993,CST-FIN-roeder06.article)
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@ thierry
By the way, what you're up to in Switzerland? Still in camera business?
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I think that there has also been a little confusion on this thread about the photographers agent and the advertising agency.
Agreed ... true "agents" - whether contractual or ad hoc - can expect and deserve to be paid for connecting a "supplier" (photographer) to a "buyer" (ad agency).
An employee of the "buyer" who surreptitiously tries to capture some benefit from the supplier for steering his employer's business to that particular supplier is seeking a "kickback" and is acting un-ethically.
I'll leave questions of law to the lawyers.
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@Eric,
When explained that way I'm 100% at the same side as you, let's get that straight.
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Here's an interesting approach. Learn the name of this person's superior, after getting the job and being paid make the kick back check out to the person who requested the kick back and mail it to the person's superior, showing the purpose of the payment "...to secure the job".
Jerry Reed
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Here's an interesting approach. Learn the name of this person's superior, after getting the job and being paid make the kick back check out to the person who requested the kick back and mail it to the person's superior, showing the purpose of the payment "...to secure the job".
The problem with that is, the AD that was requesting the backdoor kickback paid HIS boss off to secure his full time position. And on and on, up the chain of command.
Is that what they mean when they say "Pay it Forward".....?
Best thread ever. I'll even mention the words Medium Format so that the thread doesn't get killed.
You should see some of the overly serious documents (multi page), that I receive from large corporations, that address this issue. No gifts, no tickets, no iPods, no BJ's, no nothing. US corporations take this very seriously.
As far as Eastern Europe, well, all bets are off.
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It's all double Dutch to me.
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Eric this is so true.
It is pure and simple bribery; unethical business and everyone here should distance themselves from photographers like Frank Dorhoff and Andre Napier and their way of morality.
I hope Elinchrom and Leaf are reading this thread and distance themselves from Mr. Dorhoff - encouraging fellow photographers to get involved in bribery should have you banned from every forum.
Andre, I would worry if some photographer you "won" a job from would send this link to the IRS, I think you could be in deep trouble.
The funny part of this thread is Paul More buying a gun for his client, I wonder what a psychoanalyst would think of this story - or perhaps it is just protection from the mafia who also wants a cut of the deal
Stefan you did the right thing and protected your business and name in the long run - bravo.
T
It not often that I stand up for Frank , But Toby I think your statements are totally un called for..
What the hell does leaf and Elinchrom and Frank have anything to do with Kick backs.
That would be simple sponsor ship and that is what makes our world go around.
You think it is Kickback that Tiger Woods has Nike Logos everywhere assoiciated with him...
I think you need to re think what you wrote.
Snook
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i think I have to clarify a few things about my story: the guy is a freelance AD working for a big advertising agency. he is organizing a photo-shoot for a major manufacturer. he asked me to quote for a job, we went into further discussion and then suddenly he drops his notion of getting 10% of my creative fee for getting me that job. I told him I wouldn't accept this under no circumstances, then he returns, as I am not working with a rep I shouldn't mind, as they would take 25%.
I can't comment on the morals here, but for me it would be a situation where I only loose by accepting this.
1. it is unlawful
2. either I am earning 10% less on that job or I am 10% more expensive, so I might not get the job.
3. why in the world should I pay this? I do not have a rep, which means client contact is a lot of work for me. I make money by doing it myself.
4. I am fully booked for the next 3 months, this job would have filled my only free week till mid August. I'd rather spend the time with my family.
Still, my experience with the people in photography business is a pretty positive one. nearly all the ad agencies I am working with are extremely professional and correct. they give me jobs and both them and me make money with that. I guess I was just lucky not to encounter such a thing until now.
once an advertising agency asked me whether I would do their portraits for their website for free after they gave me a job. I happily accepted, I guess this could be seen as a kick-back too.
Most people are nice, I am holding onto this....on the other hand, someone stole our pram last night, I still can't believe how you can steal a pram.
stefan
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So he's a freelance weasel, like I thought.
By pram, you mean a baby carriage, right?
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yes, our baby carriage. sorry, made by neither leaf nor sinar, a bit off-topic.
what a way to start a life pushed around in a stolen pram.
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thinking a bit more about it: taking money from photographers is a neat way for the AD to lower his fees to the client and still get enough, at times when there are a lot of creative workers fiddeling their thumbs it is not such a stupid move.
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I have never been asked for a kickback from an art director or artbuyer, but a friend of mine mentioned that he'd heard about this with ad agencies in London taking a cut. I think it is an unfortunate trend and if enough photographer don't play along, it might not take off. I'd like to think that I am hired on the basis of my skills not on sharing a cut. If all the really talented photographers refuse to pay a kickback, it'll be harder for the art buyer or ad to justify their choice of photographers.
I guess my suggestion is that if you feel confident in the quality of your work you ignoe the request. And you make sure to discuss the phenomenon with as many of your colleagues and connections in the advertising industry as possible...people need to understand that the consequence of this praxis is photographic work of poorer quality.
Corruption is wrong in so many ways and it needs to be stopped at any level it might occur.
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i think I have to clarify a few things about my story: the guy is a freelance AD working for a big advertising agency. he is organizing a photo-shoot for a major manufacturer. he asked me to quote for a job, we went into further discussion and then suddenly he drops his notion of getting 10% of my creative fee for getting me that job. I told him I wouldn't accept this under no circumstances, then he returns, as I am not working with a rep I shouldn't mind, as they would take 25%.
I can't comment on the morals here, but for me it would be a situation where I only loose by accepting this.
1. it is unlawful
2. either I am earning 10% less on that job or I am 10% more expensive, so I might not get the job.
3. why in the world should I pay this? I do not have a rep, which means client contact is a lot of work for me. I make money by doing it myself.
4. I am fully booked for the next 3 months, this job would have filled my only free week till mid August. I'd rather spend the time with my family.
Still, my experience with the people in photography business is a pretty positive one. nearly all the ad agencies I am working with are extremely professional and correct. they give me jobs and both them and me make money with that. I guess I was just lucky not to encounter such a thing until now.
once an advertising agency asked me whether I would do their portraits for their website for free after they gave me a job. I happily accepted, I guess this could be seen as a kick-back too.
Most people are nice, I am holding onto this....on the other hand, someone stole our pram last night, I still can't believe how you can steal a pram.
stefan
Hi
I think the way to come back to him is to explain what a rep does for their 25%. For example a rep could see 25 agencies before they get a quote. If you convert 1 out of 4 quotes into a job that is not bad. So a good rep has to do a lot of work with hours of marketing just to get one job. Explain that to this AD.
Denis
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With this individual situation it might be hard to see without more individual information, but there are other ways of looking at this.
The AD is a freelancer, right, so he is self employed...like most of us. We all mark up our business inputs costs before billing our clients. From his business point of view, the supplier (photographer) is billing your client (ad agency) direct, so the AD missing out on one of the possible revenue streams (marking up a suppliers input) , so the AD asks the supplier to pay a commission. After all the AD has used expertise to select the supplier and that intellectual decision is worth something.
It would be like going to a hardware shop looking for a particular tool and they don't have it in stock, but their wholesaler does have it. They say that you can pay them their retail price and they will give you a purchase order to go down the road and pick up the tool directly from the wholesaler. Are you being ripped off by not paying the wholesale price?
Before kicking the AD out it would be worth asking how the 10% is justified to get an idea of where the request is coming from. It might be a decision from the agency that they are going to under pay the AD on the basis that he picks up commissions from suppliers chosen for the job. You could then say "so you don't mind if I confirm that with your CD?"
David
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Thierry - thailand sounds like China in those regards - but paying companies for legitimate time saving services in third party industries (eg visa renewals) as opposed to perpetuating a destructive practice in the industry you work in is slightly different in my mind. I do however agree that there is no black and white and in some circumstances one does have to think about their own interests and what is relevant to them.
RE
it would definitively help "Toby1014" to live in one of these countries where briberies/kickbacks and other under-the-table-money are common practices to get things done, to see things under a different light. Life is not that easy and simple for all, sometimes one has to adapt to the existing "culture" and habits.
Am I culprit if I am ready to pay 500 Thai Bath to a corrupt policeman (for locals it's 50 Bath), instead of having to drive through Bangkok to the police station to pay my fine and get my passport back, with 1/2 day lost? Am I culprit if I hire a middle-man and pay him 5'000 Thai Bath to get my 1-year visa in a day and without hassle, instead of having to go myself a few times without the certainty to get it and being asked each time different documents? Am I culprit to make use of a fictive job contract (paid for) to get a working permit, when otherwise it is almost impossible under certain circumstances? I can continue with many other examples. Therefore, it does not surprise me to have such practices in China: it happens at all levels, in photography and elsewhere, and I have experienced it all the time.
Coming from Germany, though, it sounds a bit different and certainly not the norm, IMO. In other words, I am convinced that most of the jobs to be done can be won the "normal" way, with the talent and skills of the photographers. I certainly won't accept to pay this "fee".
But would I have to work in Asia/South-East Asia, I am not really sure what would be my response: it is too often the only way to get forward, being talented or not.
Difficult question with no black or white answer, for me.
Thierry
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I do fully agree with you, Rodney, it is indeed different. I know China well, and how it works there, at all levels. Connections and briberies are common life at all levels. Most importantly, when I am speaking about paying somebody to get a visa, it means that this happens at the government level. How do you want normal citizen to act with morality, when they see and know that the politicians are corrupt?
By the way, it happens that today there is an news article in one of Bangkok's English newspaper, here:
http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion...ole-in-thailand (http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/16828/manliness-and-its-role-in-thailand)
It is kind of funny, that this is published today.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry - thailand sounds like China in those regards - but paying companies for legitimate time saving services in third party industries (eg visa renewals) as opposed to perpetuating a destructive practice in the industry you work in is slightly different in my mind. I do however agree that there is no black and white and in some circumstances one does have to think about their own interests and what is relevant to them.
RE
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David: Then the AD should bill for this work, not rip it off me. Why should I become more expensive, just because the AD had to look for other photographers than me?
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It sounds like you did the right thing getting rid of the AD. Was probably just unscrupulous, maybe had a chip on his shoulder thinking that you get paid too much and wants some of what is yours. Not a productive way to develop a relationship with you.
David: Then the AD should bill for this work, not rip it off me. Why should I become more expensive, just because the AD had to look for other photographers than me?
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The way I see it, bad behavior only results in more bad behavior. If I were to pay the AD/ Extortionists 10% I would be compelled to raise my rate to account for the fee. Then the AD would badmouth me because I would then be perceived as being too expensive to work with. The AD would then come back and tell me that the Agency is concerned and thinks that I am screwing up a good thing but still wants his/her 10%. Depending on my next action, it may turn into an actual crime by conspiring to rip the Agency off in order to pay the AD's kickback. It simply turns into a vicious circle and face it, there is no honor among thieves.
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Yeh One shitty end of the business. Years ago it used to Coke,Alcohol,Hookers and Discos...:+}
RE: Miami Beach...:+]
Still is in some groups.
I try everyday to make my business a One man job b/c I hate to have to pay some lazy *** for the in between.
Most Big agencies are Pathetic and just copy other Big ads, Wow really difficult and they get paid Big $$ for offering a copy of other campaigns.
Happens to me everyday.. I get a couple of Vogues pictures or ads and they want me to copy it but with their shitty clothing..
But Like Andre mentioned, you might be gaining 90% of what you did not have. But for the guy to mention it so obviuosly is crooked if you ask me!!
These guys should be taken out back and their legs Broken like the good ole days...:+}
Snook
This post has been edited by a Moderator. Do not use profane offensive language in this Forum.[/i]
Hi Snook
Very well said. I am hearing of kick backs here in Sydney too. Copying of tear sheets has been going on for years here in Sydney which makes my blood boil! This just drives the industry down.
Cheers Denis
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Hi, I just wanted to let you know that where i come from, this is not just common practise but an absolut must! Agents, ad agensies and all kinds of people in between me and the client earn more than I do 90% of the times. I usually earn 30-50% of what the client pays for the job... how does that sound? When I first started to work here (being in the UK for over a decade), I tried avoiding all this weird relasioships till I found I would get no good assignments cause the entire market is being controled by agencies. I mean I even got phone call threats when I knocked at doors I shouldn't have! Anyways, I learned to play the game, before I run myself out of buisness. Yes I only get 30-50%, which is mostly good for this kind of tight market, but there are people who bring me work all the time, enough to pay the bills. I know it is bad I know it shouldn't be that way, but its too complicated to change. One decides not to follow that, he ll end up loosing most of the comissions he could do. But maybe that doesn't happen in most countries as far as I see in this topic.
George
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Last night I got the email telling me I didn't get the job. I guess he found someone who gave him what he wanted.
I am happy i resisted
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Seems we're dancing around the issue a bit. So how about some definition:
If its a bribe or kickback, the OP has to decide if they want to do business that way. I don't, never have, but its not unheard of. Participating in it has its benefits (you get to play) at the cost of bad ethical position. The relationship of ethics to business practice have been well studied over many years:while good ethics can be costly in a bad scenario, they are supposed to be worthwhile. Each their own. Its only been a debate for the past three millenia. People do illegal things for all sorts of reasons.
- if its a "discount", then its quite possibly a reasonable position to be discussed: "you were bought directly, will you lower your price?". There is a reasonable, if unpleasant, reality here - it might be true, it might be worthwhile.... if business is slow, people will negotiate prices. Some never do... but some do. That's not necessarily wrong, and is certainly a point that one can discuss and ethically participate in.
Sussing out the difference between these two is the delicate part. If the client is willing to accept an invoice that shows clearly the reduction in price, then its a negotiation. If the AD wants it off the top, on the side, in cash.... then its clearly something else.
One way to handle this is to move discussions from the first category into the second: offer to write up the invoice with a discount, thus showing willingness to accept the reduction in price, but an unwillingness to participate in something off the books (and likely illegal and immoral). Often, if handled carefully, the request will disappear, amidst quiet embarassment.
That the request is wrong is not to deny that it sometimes happen. Less these days than it used to... and yet probably not unheard of. I'm not condoning it in any way, but just acknowledging the dilemma the OP put up. Its ugly, big league. The short answer is find different clients. The longer answer is to try to move the request from the back room into the light of day, where it can be addressed legitimately.
Geoff
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. . . in the European Union bribery, even at business level, is ILLEGAL.
. . . in Germany the Anti-Corruption law is part of the criminal code and offenses can be punished with jail time.
Then you clearly have never worked with the German armaments industry!