Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: heinrichvoelkel on May 05, 2009, 03:30:58 am
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Hello,
I need to shoot an assignment in B/W. It will be an outdoor feature. As I'm used to shooting medium format, I would like to keep the quality up and use MFDB for it. As I have to rent one or rather can rent the best MFBD for the job, I would like to know from any of you, who shoot in B/W:
1. Does the high iso usability change with the conversion to B/W? Will noise at 800 iso bother less in B/W
2. How do you convert? In the raw converter or with the 16bit Tiff?
3. Anybody using Hasselblad/PhaseOne/Leaf converting to B/W? Can I see some Samples?
Thanks in advance,
Heinrich
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I think you can test for yourself by downloading say Phase C1 Pro trial and converting some Raw files, be these from Canons or Nikons if you do not already have the back. Choose a b/w profile and you see the conversion on screen immediately.
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1. Does the high iso usability change with the conversion to B/W? Will noise at 800 iso bother less in B/W
It will depend on the back to some extent but my back's chrominance noise is more distracting than the luminance noise so if anything b&w looks less noisy. I always export to Photoshop in 16 bit and do the conversion there.
I'm not sure what seeing web-sized samples will tell you, but...
(http://moskvamodels.com/images/gerli_nude.jpg)
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Lovely picture, Graham...
If colour aberrations were a major problem, them using Monochromatic light (e.g. sodium street lights) might be a solution (or a test). My Front lawn is well lit by street lights, so come and try it.
Apochromatic lenses shout also solve the problem.
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3. Anybody using Hasselblad/PhaseOne/Leaf converting to B/W? Can I see some Samples?
What sort of outdoor subjects will you be shooting, and how soon?
I have only just got my computer and have not installed the software yet (ought to stop writing this and get on with it).
There is a club here (Cotswold Monochrome) which specializes in monochrome, and I have the 7900 with 3 shades of black, and colorburst, which should enable me to do some good mono prints.
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It will depend on the back to some extent but my back's chrominance noise is more distracting than the luminance noise so if anything b&w looks less noisy. I always export to Photoshop in 16 bit and do the conversion there.
I'm not sure what seeing web-sized samples will tell you, but...
Thanks Graham for the picture. Which iso did you shoot this with, 100 ?!
To make things clearer, I will be shooting a lifestyle reportage, so the iso will vary. Most of the time I will shoot on sunny days, some overcast sky as well, some ( only little) nighttime stuff. With film I wouldn't go higher as 400, so I guess 400/800 iso will do with digital.
I could shoot it with my MarkII, but would like to go for the extra pop pf MFDB.
I know the web-sized samples won't do any good for pixelpeeping, but I'm rather interested in the idea of digital B/W and how different backs look ( if this is visible at all) and a walkable way software wise.
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(1) Yes, the noise at higher ISOs with digital is much less objectionable in B&W than in color.
(2) I convert the photo from RAW to PSD or TIFF in the raw converter (usually Capture One Pro, sometimes Lightroom). I do not do my B&W conversion there any longer, however, since I got Alien Skins Exposure plug-in. Renders lovely B&W based on profiles of film stock (e.g., Tri-X 400, pushed one stop). You can set it to give you a particular film's "look" with or without grain. (I usually choose with grain). I was seriously skeptical of the ability to really replicate the look of B&W film in digital, but Exposure does so convincingly.
I will try to post some B&W samples from the Contax 645/P30+ when time permits.
Hello,
I need to shoot an assignment in B/W. It will be an outdoor feature. As I'm used to shooting medium format, I would like to keep the quality up and use MFDB for it. As I have to rent one or rather can rent the best MFBD for the job, I would like to know from any of you, who shoot in B/W:
1. Does the high iso usability change with the conversion to B/W? Will noise at 800 iso bother less in B/W
2. How do you convert? In the raw converter or with the 16bit Tiff?
3. Anybody using Hasselblad/PhaseOne/Leaf converting to B/W? Can I see some Samples?
Thanks in advance,
Heinrich
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thanks william, will be interesting to see your pics.
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I know the web-sized samples won't do any good for pixelpeeping, but I'm rather interested in the idea of digital B/W and how different backs look ( if this is visible at all) and a walkable way software wise.
The lenses, aperture used, and post-processing will make all the difference to the look, not the choice of back.
FWIW, a 100% crop:
(http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/gerli_nude_crop.jpg)
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Hello,
I need to shoot an assignment in B/W. It will be an outdoor feature. As I'm used to shooting medium format, I would like to keep the quality up and use MFDB for it. As I have to rent one or rather can rent the best MFBD for the job, I would like to know from any of you, who shoot in B/W:
1. Does the high iso usability change with the conversion to B/W? Will noise at 800 iso bother less in B/W
2. How do you convert? In the raw converter or with the 16bit Tiff?
3. Anybody using Hasselblad/PhaseOne/Leaf converting to B/W? Can I see some Samples?
Thanks in advance,
Heinrich
A lot of the time I do my conversions using the Color Editor inside of Capture One. If you are going to apply one profile (a.k.a. "film/filter characteristic response") to many many files then this is faster than doing it to the processed files. However, for working on a particular image there is no doubt the B+W tools in Photoshop and the variety of B+W plugins available for Photoshop are faster and easier to use.
Note a few other things:
In Capture One when shooting tethered you can set the look of the image, including the b+w conversion and contrast, and then have all incoming images only ever show up in that style. You are still capturing raw files (Capture One NEVER writes information to the raw file) so you can change your mind later. Combine this with the ability to shoot into a particular aspect ratio, and overlay a magazine/advertising layout on top of the image as you shoot and you can get really solid visual feedback per your final usage the second you take the shot.
You can set the P65+ and P40+ to display the B+W on the LCD. It's a strait grayscale conversion and you can't customize it to a particular B+W response (e.g. lighter green tones) but it better than viewing in color.
My work is nothing special, and hopefully someone will link to someone better, but for now...
Examples of Phase backs converted to B+W in C1 using Color Editor:
B+W Landscapes in Moab Utah (Arches) (http://www.doug-peterson.com/wordpress/2009/02/moab-utah-with-getdpi-black-and-white/)
Botanical Gardens (http://www.doug-peterson.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/botanical-gardenscf026115p.jpg)
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:[email protected])
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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My work is nothing special, and hopefully someone will link to someone better,
Until I started on Luminous Landscapes, I could count the photographers whose work I admired on the thumbs of one hand - but I hope to be able to "nothing special" as well as you do.
I am hoping to get round to some flower macro soon (with my Apo digitar 120 and Sinar P3)... have you tried focus merge to increase the depth-of-field for macro?
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Until I started on Luminous Landscapes, I could count the photographers whose work I admired on the thumbs of one hand - but I hope to be able to "nothing special" as well as you do.
I am hoping to get round to some flower macro soon (with my Apo digitar 120 and Sinar P3)... have you tried focus merge to increase the depth-of-field for macro?
My current major project (unfinished) is shooting bug eyes at 5-10X with a P65+. To get any meaningful DOF (without softening because of diffraction) I had to stack 40-100 images.
Macro DOF stacking in a CONTROLLED environment and with sufficiently precise equipment is cakewalk. DOF stacking with sloppy gear or a chaotic environment (e.g. shooting flowers in nature) is an exercise in futility.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:[email protected])
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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Check out Nik software's "Silver Efex Pro"
Works quite fine for me.
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My current major project (unfinished) is shooting bug eyes at 5-10X with a P65+. To get any meaningful DOF (without softening because of diffraction) I had to stack 40-100 images.
Macro DOF stacking in a CONTROLLED environment and with sufficiently precise equipment is cakewalk. DOF stacking with sloppy gear or a chaotic environment (e.g. shooting flowers in nature) is an exercise in futility.
Orchids, apparently, are easy, as they do not move much - a daffodil in the wind would be hopeless. Any plant outside might be hopeless to to phototropism.
I have a set of Zeiss Luminar lenses, which should give me up to 25:1... what lenses do you use?
I have a polaroid shutter to use with the Luminars, as it has a separate cable for cocking the shutter, avoiding touching the lens between pictures... Would you consider a Sinar P3 suitable or "sloppy gear"?
Do you re-focus using a focus rail, front standard or rear standard? ... conventional focussing changes the magnification ratio, giving false perspective?
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Orchids, apparently, are easy, as they do not move much - a daffodil in the wind would be hopeless. Any plant outside might be hopeless to to phototropism.
I have a set of Zeiss Luminar lenses, which should give me up to 25:1... what lenses do you use?
I have a polaroid shutter to use with the Luminars, as it has a separate cable for cocking the shutter, avoiding touching the lens between pictures... Would you consider a Sinar P3 suitable or "sloppy gear"? I would have much preferred a camera stand or a dedicated repro/macro stand from TTI, but it's a side project so I can't go nuts.
Do you re-focus using a focus rail, front standard or rear standard? ... conventional focussing changes the magnification ratio, giving false perspective?
I'm writing up a full report, and this is outside of my job at CI so I'll only respond briefly.
I'm borrowing Luminars from a forum member to complete my project. So far I've used Schneider enlarging lenses. I'm using a Sinar X and a heavy tripod (not a camera stand).
25:1 is insanity. I looked into it, and it's definitely possible, but only with the absolute most precise gear possible. I talked to TTI (copy stand and customs solution manufacturer) and they could engineer a motor-driven system that would be precise (extreme gear ratios) and reliable enough for 25:1 but would cost $10-$20k (little much for a side project ). Of course if you're not stacking images 25:1 would be relatively easy, but DOF is pretty much non-existent (you can't stop down at all because effective aperture causes diffraction immediatly.
I would love to use a focus rail but I found I needed to cover 1 cm of distance in 100 shots and could not find a focus rail able to move in 0.1 mm increments reliably (PLEASE jump in if someone has a device which would be suitable). So instead I used the rear standard. Magnification changes, but Helicon Focus does an incredible job of adapting to this. In this regard I consider it like stitching a panorama; ideally you rotate about a nodal point but the software is so good that this is largely unnecessary.
I also devised a system for Phase One backs that allows you to fire the back/flash without any mechanical movement at all (no shutter release or mirror). I'll be documenting this in full after the project ends. Couple this method with the TTI stand (if you have $10-$20k) and you could capture 100 focus-stacked images without having to touch the system (i.e. set it up, and tell it to start, it does the rest) and the only mechanical movement would be along the extremely rigid vertical stand.
*crap* just realized how OT this is. I'll start a thread in a few weeks when I'm done with my project.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:[email protected])
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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Seems there was some talk awhile back about Phase coming out with a 39MP monochrome back.
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Raw Developer www.iridient.com has a beautiful B&W conversion algorithm. CIE brightness mode. This is the default setting and IMHO better than anything else I've found, it blows ACR and Lightroom out of the water.
It also allows other forms of B+W conversion including a channel mixer and the usual greyscale conversion, but the default method looks best to me.
I use this mainly with Leaf Aptus files. Fantastic combination.
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I have found light zone to be great for black and white. I love how the app uses the zone system for adjustment. Im not sure if it is available for mac.
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I would love to use a focus rail but I found I needed to cover 1 cm of distance in 100 shots and could not find a focus rail able to move in 0.1 mm increments reliably (PLEASE jump in if someone has a device which would be suitable).
*crap* just realized how OT this is. I'll start a thread in a few weeks when I'm done with my project.
I am looking forward to you new thread...
I think that the usual technique is to put the subject on a spare P2 rear standard (or universal standard), and focus with that. If you are using movements, and your plane of sharpest focus is wherever, perhaps you can focus with tilt or rise?
With small subjects, you could focus with a micrometer... vernier or screw.
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With small subjects, you could focus with a micrometer... vernier or screw.
Any idea where I could get a micrometer accurate enough for this? The best I know of is RRS's B150-B Macro Focusing Rail. I have not purchased this but I don't think it would be enough. 1 revolution is 1.25mm, so I would need to rotate less than 30 degrees per picture in a reliable way.
Maybe someone who has used this system could comment. Maybe I could have them replace the handle with a larger one to allow easier micro movements?
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:[email protected])
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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Any idea where I could get a micrometer accurate enough for this? The best I know of is RRS's B150-B Macro Focusing Rail. I have not purchased this but I don't think it would be enough. 1 revolution is 1.25mm, so I would need to rotate less than 30 degrees per picture in a reliable way.
Maybe someone who has used this system could comment. Maybe I could have them replace the handle with a larger one to allow easier micro movements?
With Micrometers the other jaw might get in the way, or the moving jaw might rotate.... so try a micro linear actuator:
http://www.zaber.com/products/product_grou...CFctL5QodSVko8w (http://www.zaber.com/products/product_group.php?group=T-LA&linkid=adwords&gclid=CPqN9MqDppoCFctL5QodSVko8w)
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Doug,
You need to look into optical positioning mounts for scientific use - most of these have linear micrometers which will allow for the kind of positioning accuracy that you need. The cost of this stuff is probably cheaper than that which is destined for photographic use - at least in my experience and you can find lots of this stuff as surplus.
Eric
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With Micrometers the other jaw might get in the way, or the moving jaw might rotate.... so try a micro linear actuator:
http://www.zaber.com/products/product_grou...CFctL5QodSVko8w (http://www.zaber.com/products/product_group.php?group=T-LA&linkid=adwords&gclid=CPqN9MqDppoCFctL5QodSVko8w)
Doug,
You need to look into optical positioning mounts for scientific use - most of these have linear micrometers which will allow for the kind of positioning accuracy that you need. The cost of this stuff is probably cheaper than that which is destined for photographic use - at least in my experience and you can find lots of this stuff as surplus.
Eric
Dick and Eric: Thanks so much for pointing me in the right direction. Like many things on the internet once I had the right keywords and jargon I was able to find precisely what I needed. I'll be looking at a T-LS28-I. Talking to the Zaber engineers I think this is a bit of overkill for 5-10X, but opens up the possibility of shooting even higher magnifications.
Honestly, this is one of those situations that makes you love forums.
Doug
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:[email protected])
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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Don't know how heavy your set up is, but you might also be able to move the bug and get satisfactory results. Some of these positioners will work with big loads
http://cgi.ebay.com/Melles-Griot-65mm-x-65...p3286.m20.l1116 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Melles-Griot-65mm-x-65mm-X-Linear-Stage-Positioner_W0QQitemZ270155584059QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3ee687123b&_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116)
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Another great B&W conversion program is Nik Silver effects Pro another winner uo there with Kodak Exposure.
Snook
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Doug and Eric
Don't know how heavy your set up is, but you might also be able to move the bug and get satisfactory results. Some of these positioners will work with big loads
I am a design, test and development, agricultural, electronic and software engineer, and once contemplated a career in the robotics industry. I am now setting myself up as a photographic solutions provider, specializing in "anything you cannot do with a DSLR".
When the subject is smaller than the camera, move the subject... and this avoids false perspective through changing the magnification
You do not even need a good tripod, as you can use a Sinar monorail system as an optical bench: you can mount a small subject like a slide copier attachment on a spare rear standard.
There are countless cheap and simple ways of producing the small movements you want, and a simple G-clamp type digital or mechanical micrometer (with the spare jaw cut off), would let you produce and measure the movements.
If you want smaller movements, you can use an epicyclic reduction gear box (or clock mechanism) to drive the micrometer or Sinar focusing knob.
You can use a standard mechanism that produces very slow movements, and control the focus slice size with a timer: a grandfather (long case) clock weight moves about a meter in about eight days - this would be slow enough for most applications!
A ratchet system (or clock escapement mechanism) might help, or a Weston differential pulley system could produce the required high velocity ratio, small movements.
()
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[attachment=13532:492909236_hc8sb_XL.jpg]
I'm quite happy with BW conversion in C1 4.7.
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[attachment=13532:492909236_hc8sb_XL.jpg]
I'm quite happy with BW conversion in C1 4.7.
Are you
1) Desaturating?
2) Using one of the default B+W profiles (e.g. Yellow Filter or Panchromatic)
3) Creating your own B+W profile with Color Editor?
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:[email protected])
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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Here are several simple walking around shots outdoors with a MFDB that I converted to black & white with the Nik software Snook mentioned.
Kurt
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One more ...
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Kurt that second one is great, I donwloaded a demo of the nik software and I wasnt impressed compared to what could already be done in photoshop... but that looks better than the results i was getting.
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Are you
1) Desaturating?
2) Using one of the default B+W profiles (e.g. Yellow Filter or Panchromatic)
3) Creating your own B+W profile with Color Editor?
I start off with the Panchromatic profile, then make quick adjustments to white balance and saturation, depending on lighting or colors in the image.
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I like the "Recovery", in the highlights! Well done.
Best regards,
Thierry
One more ...
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bannister shot is scanned film, little PP, prior to dust clean up (sorry!)
Other was M8, CV 15, in camera file, mild PP.
Do you really need the aftermarket plug ins?
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two shots from Phase 20, PS to BW. A bit dry, but to show smooth transition of MFDB.