Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: rethmeier on April 13, 2009, 03:21:42 am
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Deleted and apologies sent to Martin Vogt from Arca-Swiss
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Willem, I hope or your sake that it is good but there are a lot of Asian operators specialising is making goods which look great but are poorly engineered. You can't tell from the photo whether they used the most durable materials, or the tightest tolerances, or the smoothness of any action, etc. Warranties can also be hard or impossible to enforce. As I said I hope you get lucky but there are reasons to avoid these products unless perhaps you have a trusted review of one particular product.
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is it a good copy, a bad copy or just a similar product ?
what about patent ?
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I should add that you probably shouldn't be recommending a product that you haven't even seen never mind thoroughly tested. Sorry, Willem!
(...and copies are morally questionable too).
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I saw it at the Photokina last year. Looked very good to me.
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Looks interesting, does anyone know where one can be purchased in the US?
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i've bought a Manfrotto Bogen 410 for architecture, it last 2 years
i've bought a Manfotto Bogen 405... it went 3 times to the factory (waranty) in a year
i wasn't brutal at all, just the material they use inside isn't harder enought for a heavy use !
then i swap to an arca B2... no problem anymore... but i miss geared movements !
it seems to be very difficult to have geared movements and durability with the same head...
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PM sent to Willem
Mark, Customer Support
ARCA-SWISS
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PM sent to Willem
Mark, Customer Support
ARCA-SWISS
Mark,
my sincere apologies,
regards,
Willem.
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John,
I think an apology was warranted in this case.
I should have kept the whole thing to myself.
End of story.
Best,
Willem.
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John,
I think an apology was warranted in this case.
I should have kept the whole thing to myself.
End of story.
Best,
Willem.
What exactly is the issue?
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The issue was me promoting a copy of a ArcaSwiss cube,made in Korea.
I wasn't aware that those cubes from ArcaSwiss had a patent on them.
Best,
Willem.
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The issue was me promoting a copy of a ArcaSwiss cube,made in Korea.
I wasn't aware that those cubes from ArcaSwiss had a patent on them.
Best,
Willem.
I really don't understand why you're apologizing, if there's an issue its between AS and the Korean company, nothing to do with consumers! Buying and reporting on competing products is your right and everyone else's here. If AS has an issue they should take it up with the Korean company and not you, this is very wrong of them to hassle the consumer and if anything, they need to apologize to you!!!!!
Patents are tricky and must be handled by lawyer and not by us on a public bulletin board, AS has to prove that there has been a patent infringement in the first place otherwise they're opening themselves to reverse lawsuits. I have 11 patents myself and am saying this from experience, AS is in the wrong for contacting you!
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As sensitive as I am to intellectual property rights (ex musician), I have to say that... unless there is something none of us know... you need not make a public apology. I am not condoning the ripping off of ideas... at all. The market is FULL of similar products that all do the same thing, with the only differences being subtle. There are subtle differences in the mechanisms between the cube and this device... probably no more subtle than the differences between the million different ballheads on the market.
Am I saying that the korean company is wrong? I'm saying I can't (not enough info). What I'm saying is that we DON'T KNOW if there is a patent infringement going on. From that side of things... an apology is WAY too premature... and I hope you weren't beat up about it.
I get your sentiment. I appreciate your sentiment. But don't feel bad about finding a clone at a good price. Let AS deal with THEM (not you) if they are, indeed, in the wrong.
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Thanks guys for standing up for me!
When the Multiflex arrives,I'll inform you all how good or bad it is.
Still for a $1000 USD I expect a lot.
The people a Photoclam,would have outlaid $ for the Multiflex.
It still has to be made and machined like the AS one.
Best,
Willem.
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Arca could easily end all discussions by telling the patent number and where it was issued. Attacking third parties doesn't make sense to me either.
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You know what gets me most about Martin's pm to you besides being totally inappropriate & unprofessional, is that you can send them a hundred emails asking them about a product or an order that is months or even a year late and you won't get a single response from them but now, suddenly, they appeared out of nowhere to attack you. AS has great products but their customer service is the worst that I've seen from any specialist company, ever!
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Still for a $1000 USD I expect a lot.
Yes, it should be cheaper, I presume they don't have the research and design costs built into their product, & probably inferior materials. If all we do is buy the cheap rip-off products, who is going to be bothered designing good new toys ?
I suppose the same applies to photographers... why pay for an expensive one when there area lot of ones around with less R&D input ?? You may find a good one, but I'd test that first!
David
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Multiflex has arrived.
Bummer,no leather pouch!
I have to get one from AS.
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Thanks guys for standing up for me!
When the Multiflex arrives,I'll inform you all how good or bad it is.
Still for a $1000 USD I expect a lot.
The people a Photoclam,would have outlaid $ for the Multiflex.
It still has to be made and machined like the AS one.
Best,
Willem.
Hi there Willem,
No no do not feel bad you are quite within your rights to advise of products you feel fit the needs--
Just to say I have two Arca Ballheads--both faulty and no response from Arca direct nor any dealer regards fixing/help /etc
They do indeed have the worst support /backup I have ever come across of any Mfg.
Keep us informed of how the "Clone" performs
I agree $2400 USD is outrageous.
Good Shooting,
Des
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Thanks Des!
From what I can see,the Multiflex build quality is excellent,however I can't compare it with the AS Cube.
If the Cube is as good,than I'm happy,even-tough I sort of feel bad having purchased a copy.
AS blames the current $2400 USD of the Cube on the exchange rate.
Best,
Willem.
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As a patent holder and businessman, I strongly support IP rights. There is an enormous amount of money, talent and energy that goes into developing a new physical or virtual product.
I personally own the arca swiss cube that I bought used from columbus camera. It is (like most swiss manufactured products) second to none in quality and durability. It is an essential component that I will no longer have to worry about- this piece of kit will last far longer than me.
I paid approx $ 1,200 used and must say I consider it a bargain for the quality of the design and manufactur. I shoot using AS products for 4x5 and 8x10 and am very pleased with the high level of craftsmanship and design skill. Like most things, you get what you pay for.
I don't support buying illegal knockoffs but this is a personal choice.
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This seams like a simpler idea ...
http://thelevelhead.com/ (http://thelevelhead.com/)
(http://thelevelhead.com/images/s1.gif)
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@ Focusgroup,
the Cube at $1200 USD is excellent value.
The Multiflex at $985 even better.
I certainly would have purchased the Cube at $1200,not at $2400.
Even-tough the Multiflex is a copy,it's a bloody good one!
Best,
Willem.
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....
I personally own the arca swiss cube that I bought used from columbus camera. It is (like most swiss manufactured products) second to none in quality and durability. It is an essential component that I will no longer have to worry about- this piece of kit will last far longer than me.
.....
Arca-Swiss is a French company, they moved there 10 years ago.
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Because of Tax reasons?
Sorry I was being cheeky,
most be old age.
Best,
Willem.
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As a patent holder and businessman, I strongly support IP rights. There is an enormous amount of money, talent and energy that goes into developing a new physical or virtual product.
I personally own the arca swiss cube that I bought used from columbus camera. It is (like most swiss manufactured products) second to none in quality and durability. It is an essential component that I will no longer have to worry about- this piece of kit will last far longer than me.
I paid approx $ 1,200 used and must say I consider it a bargain for the quality of the design and manufactur. I shoot using AS products for 4x5 and 8x10 and am very pleased with the high level of craftsmanship and design skill. Like most things, you get what you pay for.
I don't support buying illegal knockoffs but this is a personal choice.
French company "Arca Swiss" make a nice product. I'd say this controversy is going to help them. Being known as the best maker of a type of product is better than not having that type of product known at all. And just think of all the money the lawyers will get if "illegal knockoff" is a correct description of the Korean product rather than just a derogatory and diffamatory statement.
Edmund
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Because of Tax reasons?
Sorry I was being cheeky,
most be old age.
Best,
Willem.
I see you have an interesting sense of humor. Must be old age, or personal experience speaking.
Edmund
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Edmund,
it's well known in the world that Switzerland has a much better tax climate compared to France.
I'm sure I don't have to tell you that.
Anyway,I'm happy with my Multiflex,I certainly can't fault it,apart from being copied extremely well.
Best,
Willem.
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Yes, it should be cheaper, I presume they don't have the research and design costs built into their product, & probably inferior materials. If all we do is buy the cheap rip-off products, who is going to be bothered designing good new toys ?
I suppose the same applies to photographers... why pay for an expensive one when there area lot of ones around with less R&D input ?? You may find a good one, but I'd test that first!
David
I really wouldn't assume that the materials are "inferior". Considering that when I get stuff engineered I actually can choose what material I to make it out of, it is biased to assume that a knockoff company would use cheaper materials. In fact perhaps they would consider better quality materials due to the fact that their manufacturing costs are lower. That could be a possibility.
Actually to take it to the context of photography, the fact that people could easily copy my pictures forced me to find a unique point in my craft to sell.
This is the same for a multitude of fields. information is so freely available now. People can hire an inferior one who's good at copying, but you don't see Art & Commerce's photographers crying about that.
It's a good idea to figure out a way to continually have something that makes you better value than someone else to convince a consumer.
You can do this by overhyped marketing like many high-end audio brands, peer pressure word of mouth like MFDB manufacturers on online forums like these, by paying magazines to put up ads,
or more positively you could create a great user experience and quality at a reasonable price that leads people to recommend you to others.
I find Profoto expensive but invested in the system ultimately because I felt the premium was worthwhile considering their continual upgrades to the system, the positive user experiences, the relative ease of getting servicing, etc etc.
two trains of thoughts, I do wish everything was more open but from a business point of view, one has to fight hard to sustain their $$$
it's a small world, if someone in korea's making something cheaper and equally good, as a consumer I will buy the cheaper one
Ethics will differ from person to person however ethics are a whole other can of worms.
This brings to mind the Briese vs Broncolor Para debate.
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Avoid all the mayhem of 'is-it-a-copy, isn't-it-a-copy?' and just buy one of these: http://www.optosigma.com/miva/merchant.mv?...ode=Goniometers (http://www.optosigma.com/miva/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=OS&Product_Code=pg341-344&Category_Code=Goniometers) - and put a panning base on the bottom and/or a RRS panning-clamp on the top (looks like all the dual-axis models have a 0.25" threaded central socket on the top and bottom).
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Avoid all the mayhem of 'is-it-a-copy, isn't-it-a-copy?' and just buy one of these: http://www.optosigma.com/miva/merchant.mv?...ode=Goniometers (http://www.optosigma.com/miva/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=OS&Product_Code=pg341-344&Category_Code=Goniometers) - and put a panning base on the bottom and/or a RRS panning-clamp on the top (looks like all the dual-axis models have a 0.25" threaded central socket on the top and bottom).
what a great idea... and after a bit of searching, I've found several more sources... obviously designed for high-accuracy:
one here (http://www.newport.com/GON-Series-Goniometers/144554/1033/catalog.aspx?gclid=CP-Uy8rh9ZkCFZuF7QodG2PXRg)
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Arca-Swiss is a French company, they moved there 10 years ago.
Umm
I think everyone knows they moved. The small company still employs the same 1/2 french 1/2 swiss workers. Of course the french manufacture many fine products. Aatons are wonderful lits to work with. I'd like to get a used A minima one of these days.
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Photographers strenuously protect their intellectual property, their copy rights to an image. It would seem more consistent to respect the patents, the IP of our suppliers as well.
Yes the issue is between AS and infringers, but consumers have an obligation to respect IP. Whether Gucci, AS or the 20 dollar bill, a counterfeit is wrong.
Victor
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I am amazed at the speed in which Willem got kicked by Arca about his post, the same company who is not able to communicate with us in a modern way by a website. for years I am interested in their Products, namely their Monolith and the Cube, at both the 96 and the 98 Photokina i asked them to get in contact with me, but they never did.
I bought a Linhof 679 and a Manfrotto geared head. The Money I spent on this would have been enough to get a website done. I spend my money with companies i can talk to, especially if it is very spezialized stuff to fulfill my special needs.
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for years I am interested in their Products, namely their Monolith and the Cube, at both the 96 and the 98 Photokina i asked them to get in contact with me, but they never did.
Is the Cube that old? I was under the impression that it was introduced in 2004 or 2005.
Cheers,
Kumar
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sorry, stupid me. was of course Photokina 2006 & 2008.
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Avoid all the mayhem of 'is-it-a-copy, isn't-it-a-copy?' and just buy one of these: http://www.optosigma.com/miva/merchant.mv?...ode=Goniometers (http://www.optosigma.com/miva/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=OS&Product_Code=pg341-344&Category_Code=Goniometers) - and put a panning base on the bottom and/or a RRS panning-clamp on the top (looks like all the dual-axis models have a 0.25" threaded central socket on the top and bottom).
Neato. I need one of those. I'm not sure why but I feel certain I need to own one.
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I've done a review at GetDPI of the Multiflex:
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.p...ted=1#post92479 (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?p=92479&posted=1#post92479)
I realize that this will annoy certain people,however it's a free world.
Best,
Willem.
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I see you still have your sense of humor Willem -
Thank you very much for your review.
Edmund
I've done a review at GetDPI of the Multiflex:
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.p...ted=1#post92479 (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?p=92479&posted=1#post92479)
I realize that this will annoy certain people,however it's a free world.
Best,
Willem.
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I have read both threads on LL as well as GetGPI. This head looks promising. I find the discussion about the assumed IP also interesting. What I find really remarkable is that in both threads someone from Arca chimes in, without really trying to clear up this issue or vent their POV. Given I hear so many people that have actually bought or wanted to buy AS products that found communication ended in some black hole or repairs/deliveries that took ages I find it astonishing they can 'communicate' in threads like this but not communicate to their own (potential) clients in a desired manner. Any communication I have seen sofar from AS was in a negative connotation. I believe some of their products look really interesting but this is the one thing that prevents me from buying anything from them even more so than pricing.
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Whatever issues Arca may have, their US repair facility - Precision Camera Works - is absolutely stellar. Over many years I have never experienced any delays in service or communication or had problems of any kind. Rather quite the opposite, Bob and his team go above and beyond, and I can recommend them without reservation. While I don't know if they handle international repairs, if there is a problem with Arca service (or any other brand) in your country it may be worth contacting PCW.
If you are in the US, Diane at Arca's US office is quick to respond and help with any questions, and there are several good dealers who can give you straight answers, including Jeff at Badger and Rod at Photomark.
About the Cube, I bought what may have been the first one imported into the US probably 5 years ago (will have to dig out the rcpt to get date, but was told by Arca they didn't know of another one sold here before mine). Paid about $1300 for it at the time and never once regretted it. It has been around the world several times and is still perfect. I would buy another in a second, even at todays price.