Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: David Grover / Capture One on April 06, 2009, 06:01:41 pm
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Hi All,
I was in a nice location today so did a quick and dirty stitch test.
H3D50 with the HTS + 28mm and zero'd movements, you get this...
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k70/dgrover/centre.jpg)
Full top and bottom shift and stitched in Photomerge....
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k70/dgrover/3way.jpg)
Full left to right and stitched again. A little bit beyond the limit as you can see from the vignette.
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k70/dgrover/3wayhor.jpg)
Probably some stitch errors but didn't look carefully to correct! Also did a five-way for fun with a 45° rotation and full shift to 'fill in the corners'. Will upload that when I am more awake!
Also played around with negative tilt to knock out depth of field. Creating a nice effect which some will and some not like.
Best,
David
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...for the curious a shot with the 28 only...
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k70/dgrover/28only.jpg)
...and with -10° of tilt and a full open aperture. (All other captures were at f16).
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k70/dgrover/negtilt.jpg)
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....and last but not least a very quick 7 image stitch based on quick JPEG exports. And now I really must go to bed, or Ill be playing around with this forever.
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k70/dgrover/7way.jpg)
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Nice shots tests.
I hope to get this lens [and maybe TS] as soon as possible.
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Hi All,
I was in a nice location today so did a quick and dirty stitch test.
David
OK dont keep us in suspense....where and when....beautiful location but I assume not the local
Days Inn Hotel.
Bob
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Thanks for sharing the photos!
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I got my 1.5 HTS but my camera is getting repaired... so i cannot wait to get it back to give it a spin
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OK dont keep us in suspense....where and when....beautiful location but I assume not the local
Days Inn Hotel.
Bob
Fazeley Studios in Birmingham....
http://modx-fazeley.spring-php.com/ (http://modx-fazeley.spring-php.com/)
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I really hope Phamiya is working on their own HTS because this sure would be useful..
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I really hope Phamiya is working on their own HTS because this sure would be useful..
I would be extremely suprised if they were.
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$5k for half a an inch of movement with vignetting?
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$5k for half a an inch of movement with vignetting?
First i was so interested about that HTS and i don't know about the price, when i checked on the net about the price i shocked, i think i will ignore it until i can have at least $20k in my pocket.
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$5k for half a an inch of movement with vignetting?
It is half the height of the sensor. (18mm).
Not an insignificant amount of movement for any shift device these days.
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$5k for half a an inch of movement with vignetting?
Leonardo what do you shoot? Have you any idea how useful this piece of kit is?
Nick-T
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Leonardo what do you shoot? Have you any idea how useful this piece of kit is?
Nick-T
for architecture, as this example looks like, not that useful - when you put the straight 28 mm shoot over the stitched image, you reward for the work of stitching 7 images is to my eyes, the same
images combined with some nice dark corners.
If goal is to kill time, then making 7 images and thereafter stitch them, is of course way more efficient than just do one shoot - in this perspective my Rodenstock 23 mm seems as a bargain......
other subjects than architecture, it's probably more useful.
very best
Adam
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Adam, thank you for answering for me, it is exactly what I think, probably the effort -and money- is better spent on non-retro focus lenses with wide coverage...
for architecture, as this example looks like, not that useful - when you put the straight 28 mm shoot over the stitched image, you reward for the work of stitching 7 images is to my eyes, the same
images combined with some nice dark corners.
If goal is to kill time, then making 7 images and thereafter stitch them, is of course way more efficient than just do one shoot - in this perspective my Rodenstock 23 mm seems as a bargain......
other subjects than architecture, it's probably more useful.
very best
Adam
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Adam, thank you for answering for me, it is exactly what I think, probably the effort -and money- is better spent on non-retro focus lenses with wide coverage...
I think exactly the same. For the same money you'd get a really nice large format outfit and get better results for most subjects. But particularly for architecture.
Pete
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Really nice to see you throw out what it can do- great and really helpful.
I cant help but notice that the straight 28mm shot aint too shabby.
Any Lens Cast issues?
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for architecture, as this example looks like, not that useful - when you put the straight 28 mm shoot over the stitched image, you reward for the work of stitching 7 images is to my eyes, the same
images combined with some nice dark corners.
If goal is to kill time, then making 7 images and thereafter stitch them, is of course way more efficient than just do one shoot - in this perspective my Rodenstock 23 mm seems as a bargain......
other subjects than architecture, it's probably more useful.
very best
Adam
You are exactly right. There IS no point to the 7 image stitch as it gives you much the same coverage as the 28mm by itself.
What you have to remember though is that the 28mm by itself would not have the useful action of shifting within an architectural scenario, to maintain correct perspective. (Avoiding falling down building syndrome).
The point of the 7 way stitch was to show to the extent which you could move the lens.
Best,
David
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I think exactly the same. For the same money you'd get a really nice large format outfit and get better results for most subjects. But particularly for architecture.
Pete
There is also the discussion of convenience and the fact the HTS converts five lenses for tilt and shift use as opposed to one lens on one dedicated camera.
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Really nice to see you throw out what it can do- great and really helpful.
I cant help but notice that the straight 28mm shot aint too shabby.
Any Lens Cast issues?
Thanks for pointing out the 28mm shot. It looks excellent in its full rawness!
I have never experienced any lens cast issues with the 28 separately or with the HTS. But to be fair I have not used it in anger enough to unequivocally say there will be no lens cast. There is plenty of facility in Phocus to correct for lens cast.
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This site is always good for a chuckle. It seems to me counterproductive to detract and diminish any tool before trying it.
As one who shoots architecture for a living (and have for over 25 years) and now uses an HTS, I consider it worth every penny. I use it on every shoot.
R
Adam, thank you for answering for me, it is exactly what I think, probably the effort -and money- is better spent on non-retro focus lenses with wide coverage...
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This site is always good for a chuckle. It seems to me counterproductive to detract and diminish any tool before trying it.
As one who shoots architecture for a living (and have for over 25 years) and now uses an HTS, I consider it worth every penny. I use it on every shoot.
R
Richard,
I'm glad you like it. But you should never assume people haven't tried it before commenting. It isn't good enough for me, simply doesn't compare to a proper Large Format camera with a full range of movements and good lenses. That's my opinion anyway.
Pete
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Richard,
I'm glad you like it. But you should never assume people haven't tried it before commenting. It isn't good enough for me, simply doesn't compare to a proper Large Format camera with a full range of movements and good lenses. That's my opinion anyway.
Pete
Pete,
It was never meant to compare to a large format camera and full range of lenses.
However, some photographers who do not want or wish to use such a solution have a real alternative with the HTS.
That is the point of it.
David
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My mind is still stuck a bit on the utility of shifting with the HTS 1.5 when, if you stitch to the max. extent possible, you only get back the original coverage. It seems it has two possible uses: stiching to get bigger files, and if you have a lens which is 1.5x as wide as you need (or more), then you can just shift to correct perspective. Am I missing something?
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It's hard for me to believe that anyone really thinks it was Hasselblad's intention to try to replace Large Format with the HTS, (and thus Canon and Nikon with their PC lenses)? Of course it doesn't. Why would it? I don't expect it to.
The HTS is simply a practical answer to a desire to expand the utility of the camera system.
It's a tool that fulfills a need for some like me, who use the system in a particular manner, not for others, like you who prefer LF.
Richard,
I'm glad you like it. But you should never assume people haven't tried it before commenting. It isn't good enough for me, simply doesn't compare to a proper Large Format camera with a full range of movements and good lenses. That's my opinion anyway.
Pete
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I was initially really interested in getting the HTS 1.5....for about 5 minutes after reading the entire Hasselblad press release. It is pretty useless for the majority of my architectural photography as the 28mm lens suddenly becomes a 43mm lens, which is nowhere near wide enough for the majority of my shots. It's a pity because it would have made my life a lot easier. I don't know if it's technologically possible to make a wider lens to be used with the HDS1.5. Than that could be interesting.
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Hey, but you can stitch the 43mm back to 28mm, and ... tilt it. What else you want for only $5k ?
I was initially really interested in getting the HTS 1.5....for about 5 minutes after reading the entire Hasselblad press release. It is pretty useless for the majority of my architectural photography as the 28mm lens suddenly becomes a 43mm lens, which is nowhere near wide enough for the majority of my shots. It's a pity because it would have made my life a lot easier. I don't know if it's technologically possible to make a wider lens to be used with the HDS1.5. Than that could be interesting.
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Hey, but you can stitch the 43mm back to 28mm, and ... tilt it. What else you want for only $5k ?
Leonardo, you need to rethink the purpose and use of this device. Photographers who have already bought the device, like rmsphoto have real uses for it, exactly like a PC lens from Canon or Nikon, but in our case you have the benefit of adapting five H lenses. Not to mention its the only TS device that uses lens data to correct distortion, CA and vignetting.
Best,
David
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David, You have a valid point. If there are photographers using it it must be useful and it is positive that Hasselbald took the time and effort to design it and produce it. I think that this proves the need for control of perspective, and of lenses with wide and wider views.
Technology solved the problem of robotic focus, and an alternative to chemical imaging. The next big thing to solve is the problem of the REFLEX box. When we eliminate the mirror we will have non retrofocus lenses that can be made wider and cameras more dinamic... This will probably begin with CAMERA RED, a non traditional camera manufacturer that would think in a completely unorthodox way ...
Anyway, too much theory, I will go now for a 3 day Easter holly day hopefully to do more and talk less.. take care
Leonardo, you need to rethink the purpose and use of this device. Photographers who have already bought the device, like rmsphoto have real uses for it, exactly like a PC lens from Canon or Nikon, but in our case you have the benefit of adapting five H lenses. Not to mention its the only TS device that uses lens data to correct distortion, CA and vignetting.
Best,
David
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Lens Equivalent lens with the HTS 1.5 Angle of view diag/hor/vert
HCD 4/28 mm 6,3/45 mm 71°/59°/45°
HC 3,5/35 mm 5,6/55 mm 59°/49°/37°
HC 3,5/50 mm 5,6/75 mm 44°/35°/27°
HC 2,8/80 mm 4,5/128 mm 27°/22°/16°
HC 2,2/100 mm 3,5/155 mm 23°/18°/14°
so, if rodenstock can offer there 40 shift and tilt digaron with a Mamiya 645 it will be even better and wider than it !
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Lens Equivalent lens with the HTS 1.5 Angle of view diag/hor/vert
HCD 4/28 mm 6,3/45 mm 71°/59°/45°
HC 3,5/35 mm 5,6/55 mm 59°/49°/37°
HC 3,5/50 mm 5,6/75 mm 44°/35°/27°
HC 2,8/80 mm 4,5/128 mm 27°/22°/16°
HC 2,2/100 mm 3,5/155 mm 23°/18°/14°
so, if rodenstock can offer there 40 shift and tilt digaron with a Mamiya 645 it will be even better and wider than it !
IF.
Currently there is little or no information on these new lenses and so far they have only been shown on 35mm mounts.
The HTS is available now and modifies five existing lenses.
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I don't get it. What is this...? David shows some examples of HTS usage and people are trying to put down the stuff he works with/for by trying to 'find better' solutions?
Indeed people already using the H system can find use for this 'adapter'. There are more cases than shift to put the HTS to use. In numerous occasions I have too limited DoF with my H where I don't want to go beyond f16 but for the thing I want to achieve I actually should go beyond it. If the HTS can give me the ability to tweak around the plane of focus it is a very welcome piece of equipment for me.
If only the price would be more friendly I would appreciate the device even more. Even at this price point I will buy it sooner than later since it will make my life much easier.
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for architecture, as this example looks like, not that useful - when you put the straight 28 mm shoot over the stitched image, you reward for the work of stitching 7 images is to my eyes, the same
images combined with some nice dark corners.
If goal is to kill time, then making 7 images and thereafter stitch them, is of course way more efficient than just do one shoot - in this perspective my Rodenstock 23 mm seems as a bargain......
other subjects than architecture, it's probably more useful.
very best
Adam
its probably for people who do only occasional and sometimes an architecture shot, i cant see any "full time" architecture photographer doing his work with such tool.
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its probably for people who do only occasional and sometimes an architecture shot, i cant see any "full time" architecture photographer doing his work with such tool.
If 28mm * 1.5 is wide enough, then I don't see any serious limitations to the setup? Big if, though.
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If 28mm * 1.5 is wide enough, then I don't see any serious limitations to the setup? Big if, though.
That's the point,
Lens Equivalent lens with the HTS 1.5 Angle of view diag/hor/vert
HCD 4/28 mm 6,3/45 mm 71°/59°/45°
45mm isn't wide enought for architecture... but still a valid set up for a lot of applications !
an other point, what about distortion...
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its probably for people who do only occasional and sometimes an architecture shot, i cant see any "full time" architecture photographer doing his work with such tool.
Rainer, with all due respect..... that is utter BS.
Are you sure you want to stand by such a perceptually self-righteous statement as this?
A particular set of tools does not make the photographer, they just may, or may not make his job technically a bit easier. (In this case, I'm not sure I could say they'd make it "better" since that's quite subjective isn't it?).
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an other point, what about distortion...
What about it? Please elaborate.
/Henrik
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an other point, what about distortion...
What about it? Please elaborate.
and what about sharpness fall off? We've seen some captures with the HTS on the forum by now. showing the field of view or certain possibilities of use. But never a 100% crop of the edges.
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45mm isn't wide enought for architecture... but still a valid set up for a lot of applications !
an other point, what about distortion...
Apart from the architecture photographers using it?
Distortion is fully corrected based on the T/S and Rotation settings off the HTS, which are displayed on the camera, written to the image file and then used to match one of the 60,000 lens maps in Phocus (our software) to correct for CA, Vignetting and Distortion.
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What about it? Please elaborate. and what about sharpness fall off? We've seen some captures with the HTS on the forum by now. showing the field of view or certain possibilities of use. But never a 100% crop of the edges.
Edge definition is excellent. I will post some crops when it is not a holiday weekend and I shouldn't be on the computer!
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Edge definition is excellent. I will post some crops when it is not a holiday weekend and I shouldn't be on the computer!
David
Thanks for posting the Shift+Stitch images I think a comparison between that and a VR Stitch pivoting the whole camera on the EPP would have been more valuable exercise which I suspect would have given better results than the 'quick 7 image stitch' in post 3
Granted it would not have shown the potential versatility of the HTS but for a £3k investment the HTS's killer app is not just stitching
It has to be with Perspective and Sharpness control ie the Tilt/Swing features and the DAC integration.
Phil
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for architecture, as this example looks like, not that useful - when you put the straight 28 mm shoot over the stitched image, you reward for the work of stitching 7 images is to my eyes, the same
images combined with some nice dark corners.
If goal is to kill time, then making 7 images and thereafter stitch them, is of course way more efficient than just do one shoot - in this perspective my Rodenstock 23 mm seems as a bargain......
other subjects than architecture, it's probably more useful.
very best
Adam
If the only benefit you're looking for is a wider FOV, then there is little point. If you're looking for more detail then there will be a huge (7x/2 or whatever the actual megpixel difference is) difference in the resolved details. You won't see a difference in a web image, but 100% crops will show the difference.
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100% Crops...
Top Left
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k70/dgrover/topleft.jpg)
Top Right
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k70/dgrover/topright.jpg)
Bottom Left
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k70/dgrover/bottleft.jpg)
Bottom Right
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k70/dgrover/bottright.jpg)
+18MM shift (Maximum amount)
Peep away.
Best,
David
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Granted it would not have shown the potential versatility of the HTS but for a £3k investment the HTS's killer app is not just stitching
It has to be with Perspective and Sharpness control ie the Tilt/Swing features and the DAC integration.
Phil
Hi Phil,
I agree. Its killer app is not stitching. The purpose of the 7-way stitch was to show the extent of shifting (rise, fall, etc etc) movements.
David
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Apart from the architecture photographers using it?
Distortion is fully corrected based on the T/S and Rotation settings off the HTS, which are displayed on the camera, written to the image file and then used to match one of the 60,000 lens maps in Phocus (our software) to correct for CA, Vignetting and Distortion.
If you take the DCU off the back of the point-and-shoot adapter, and put it on a mirror-free view camera with non-retrofocus specialist digital apo-chromatic lenses, you get good sharp pictures without DAC software correction of lens aberrations.
This would, of course, work a great deal better if you would enable the live video feature on the H3D11-50, or give me my money back so that I can get a Sinar.
(I have suggested that Hasselblad UK might like to lend me a 39 Megapixel back until you have enabled live-video in Phocus for the 50.)
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100% Crops...
Thank you!