Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: BSG on March 31, 2009, 01:44:06 pm
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I am purchasing a new complete MF system, and have 2 options before me and was hoping someone could give me their opinion as to which is a better option. I shoot mostly landscapes for very large prints. Print size is very important to me, as well as long exposures, which is why I chose Phase One in the first place. So now I have to make a decision between two systems, and any advice helps.
System 1 -
Everything brand new
P30+
Phase One 645 camera
80mm lens
System 2 -
P45+ - 20,000 actuations
Hasselblad H2 - about 15,000 actuations
80mm lens- same as body
The 2 systems are almost the same price, the used P45+ will probably come out $2,000 more. I always have the tendancy to go the brand new route, but know the P45+ is probably a better choice. What is the best things to do for my work? Thanks.
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The camera is more important than the back. Which system has the lenses, accessories and features you will need? Do you use tilt/shift lenses? How wide do you want to go? Do you need leaf shutter lenses? Why are you not looking at a view camera? etc
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The camera is more important than the back. Which system has the lenses, accessories and features you will need? Do you use tilt/shift lenses? How wide do you want to go? Do you need leaf shutter lenses? Why are you not looking at a view camera? etc
I have not had a need for tilt/shift lenses thus far, and I am looking at the 28mm for a wide lens, which is available on both cameras. I have never used a leaf shutter, and therefore am not sure if I need it.
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I have not had a need for tilt/shift lenses thus far, and I am looking at the 28mm for a wide lens, which is available on both cameras. I have never used a leaf shutter, and therefore am not sure if I need it.
The reason I ask is that the best quality landscape lenses are the lenses available for view cameras only. The widest lens for a digital back is also only available for the view cameras (23mm). If I were shooting landscapes, there would be no question. Have a look at Sinar arTec, Alpa, Cambo, etc
The leaf shutter gives you faster flash sync and almost no shutter vibration. The downside is that the fastest shutter speed is slower. Probably not an issue for your work either way.
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I have not had a need for tilt/shift lenses thus far, and I am looking at the 28mm for a wide lens, which is available on both cameras. I have never used a leaf shutter, and therefore am not sure if I need it.
BSG:
Be aware that the Hasselblad 28mm lens is incompatible with all digital backs except for their own. The 28mm lens for the Phase One camera will work with any digital back. So if a 28mm lens is critical, the Phase One camera is the only choice if you prefer the Phase One digital back (of course you do!).
Actually in the case of choosing betwen the P45+ and P30+, there are important differences:
P45+
*larger sensor, better lens coverage
*higher resolution
P30+
*Faster shooting speed
*Better high ISO
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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BSG:
Be aware that the Hasselblad 28mm lens is incompatible with all digital backs except for their own. The 28mm lens for the Phase One camera will work with any digital back. So if a 28mm lens is critical, the Phase One camera is the only choice if you prefer the Phase One digital back (of course you do!).
Actually in the case of choosing betwen the P45+ and P30+, there are important differences:
P45+
*larger sensor, better lens coverage
*higher resolution
P30+
*Faster shooting speed
*Better high ISO
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
Thanks for all of the information. I have always seen those when I read about the P30+ benefits but am not too concerned with high ISO or shooting speed. But now I worry if the P45+ has enough of a benefit to make up for a difference in the flexibility of the system when paired with the phase one camera vs. the hassy?
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So if a 28mm lens is critical...
Actually in this particular decision it is not... as the 28mm on the P30 with lens factor 1.3 is roughly the same as a 35mm on the P45 with lens factor 1.1.
I'd go for the larger sensor (because of wide angle) without microlenses (for possibly later use on a view camera ) for landscape ...
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Thanks for all of the information. I have always seen those when I read about the P30+ benefits but am not too concerned with high ISO or shooting speed. But now I worry if the P45+ has enough of a benefit to make up for a difference in the flexibility of the system when paired with the phase one camera vs. the hassy?
My advice given you stated,
"I shoot mostly landscapes for very large prints. Print size is very important to me, as well as long exposures, which is why I chose Phase One in the first place."
Get the P45+. It has a bigger sensor, more total pixels than the P30+. Also, the P30+ has micro-lenses which do act as a sort of soft AA filter and do detract slightly from net detail if you compare directly to P45+ files at 100%. Not sure you'd really notice it in a print, but it is visible in the file. Frankly for landscape, I think the camera platform is LESS important than the back you choose. (And FWIW if you had said you were shooting primarily fashion, I would have suggested the P30+ over the P45+ and added that camera platform is also an important consideration )
Cheers,
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Frankly for landscape, I think the camera platform is LESS important than the back you choose.
I have to disagree. There is a far greater difference in lens image quality than digital back image quality. When comparing similar backs, people usually have to pixel peep for some time to spot any differences. This has been said by many on this forum. But the best lenses really make a difference especially with landscape. That's why I'd recommend a view camera solution.
(Steve makes a very valid point about the Hasselblad 28mm. )
Rodenstock 23mm (http://www.alpa.ch/files/products/288/ALPA_23hr_000089.jpg)
Plenty more samples on the Alpa website (http://www.alpa.ch)
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(Steve makes a very valid point about the Hasselblad 28mm. )
Yes he does, and rather than try to sway BSG either way I would recommend you try the P45+ and the Mamiya 28 and also an H3DII39 with our 28mm and see what you prefer for your landscapes.
Also compare the prices between the two systems.
Best,
David
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Is a 28mm lens absolutely necessary when such fine examples of panoramic stitching have been posted here?
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Is a 28mm lens absolutely necessary when such fine examples of panoramic stitching have been posted here?
Depends if you wanna stitch.
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I would also suggest having a good read through this thread about the 28mm lenses....
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....=28651&st=0 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=28651&st=0)
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Is a 28mm lens absolutely necessary when such fine examples of panoramic stitching have been posted here?
Thank you every one for the advice, i think that I am very much leaning towards the P45+. The main concern for me is that I am not too familiar with the Hassy system and do not want to run in to any unexpected problems, or compatibility issues. I am aware of the 28mm lens problem, but with the difference is the lens factor that is not a deal breaker for me. It essentially for me is an issue of a complete phase one system that is brand new vs. the H2/P45+ combo that is used. I have heard that phase one backs have no "moving parts" and so the used factor is not as important as with other backs. If this is the case then it is probably a no brainer, especially because I have found the P45+ for the same price as a new P30+.
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I have heard that phase one backs have no "moving parts" and so the used factor is not as important as with other backs.
If you mean no fan, that is true and also true of the Sinar eMotion backs.
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I would recommend you try the P45+ and the Mamiya 28 and also an H3DII39 with our 28mm and see what you prefer for your landscapes.
Also compare the prices between the two systems.
And also compare long exposure as this seems to be one of your primary features.
Is a 28mm lens absolutely necessary when such fine examples of panoramic stitching have been posted here?
Depends on how you stitch. Based on pan with panorama head it is actually better with lenses without distortion... so actually not wide angles. Stitching based on a view camera (shifting the capture frames inside the image circle of the large format lens) is fine with wide angle lenses as long as they hold sharpness at the edges.
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if all you shoot is landscapes, i would buy a non plus p45, and save lots of money.
people i know who have compared the two have found very little difference. the screen is better on the +, but only a little, and the iso is only a little better as well.
i have used the p45 (non plus) quite a bit, and its very good, if a little slow capture rate wise. i dont think a p30 (plus or non plus) is best for landscapes IMO.
paul
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if all you shoot is landscapes, i would buy a non plus p45, and save lots of money.
Except he also wants to be able to do long exposures, and that is one of the benefits to the plus...
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The Hasselblad 28mm HC lens is just incredible in my opinion. I second all the opinions stated here about this lens. It is just the best wide angle lens I have ever used. It is light and just stellar. A second advantage to the Hasselblad system is the HTS system that will allow tilt/shifts from the 28,35,50,80 and 100mm HC lenses. Third, I do not understand is not being familiar with the Hassy system. Being a closed system -- compatibility issues have really disappeared. Getting familiar with the system does not take that long. So familiarity should not really be a major factor in my opinion. Fourth, I agree that for landscapes, the need for outstanding high iso images may or may not be an issue. but there are times when the wind is blowing and I want to get some flowers or plants or even some macro type shots and having high iso capability has really been helpful. Finally if you need really long exposures then the Phase system would have to your choice but I have never needed more than 10 seconds anything I have shot. BTW Steve Hendrix was the one who convinced me on the Hasselblad system . M
Jack I have seen images comparing the detail in the H3DII-31 to H3DII-39 and at least with the HC lenses, I could not see any differences in detail resolution.
Thank you every one for the advice, i think that I am very much leaning towards the P45+. The main concern for me is that I am not too familiar with the Hassy system and do not want to run in to any unexpected problems, or compatibility issues. I am aware of the 28mm lens problem, but with the difference is the lens factor that is not a deal breaker for me. It essentially for me is an issue of a complete phase one system that is brand new vs. the H2/P45+ combo that is used. I have heard that phase one backs have no "moving parts" and so the used factor is not as important as with other backs. If this is the case then it is probably a no brainer, especially because I have found the P45+ for the same price as a new P30+.
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BTW Steve Hendrix was the one who convinced me on the Hasselblad system . M
Yes, but I only offered you the best I had at the time being, as I was not selling Phase One!
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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Except he also wants to be able to do long exposures, and that is one of the benefits to the plus...
woops, i didnt read that part. the p45 does up to several minutes.
i have shots exposures of several minutes with my old p25, and it always took twice as long because of the black frame (or what ever it was called).
do you still have to do one of those time consuming frames with the plus backs? if you do, what a bloody head ache to do with a half hour exposure!
paul
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woops, i didnt read that part. the p45 does up to several minutes.
i have shots exposures of several minutes with my old p25, and it always took twice as long because of the black frame (or what ever it was called).
do you still have to do one of those time consuming frames with the plus backs? if you do, what a bloody head ache to do with a half hour exposure!
paul
Hi Paul:
Yes, you do still need to wait for the back to do the dark-frame subtraction, so every long exposure takes 2x as long as the actual exposure. I understand the non-plus backs will do 60 to 120 second exposures in moderately cool temps and a bit longer in colder temps before they hit the noise wall, but the issue is it's always a dice toss as to what you'll get if you go longer than a minute...
Cheers,
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Yes, but I only offered you the best I had at the time being, as I was not selling Phase One!
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
hahahah now THAT was worth logging in to read!
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Yes, but I only offered you the best I had at the time being, as I was not selling Phase One!
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
Nice try.... ;-)
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Thank you to every one for all of the help. I had to make my final decision today and I went with the P45+ with H2 mount. I have the P45+ back now and am just waiting to get my H2, I cannot wait to get it all together and take my first shot with it. Thanks to all for the comments.
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Thank you to every one for all of the help. I had to make my final decision today and I went with the P45+ with H2 mount. I have the P45+ back now and am just waiting to get my H2, I cannot wait to get it all together and take my first shot with it. Thanks to all for the comments.
Yes, basically, there all good, really good.
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Thank you to every one for all of the help. I had to make my final decision today and I went with the P45+ with H2 mount. I have the P45+ back now and am just waiting to get my H2, I cannot wait to get it all together and take my first shot with it. Thanks to all for the comments.
Good choice, the P45 plus is a excellent back and loaded with great detail for landscape work. I shot it many times along with my P25 plus and yes it does have the detail edge. Although I am selling mine for a P30 plus my needs are different. Phase makes great backs and I love C1 to process there files.
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woops, i didnt read that part. the p45 does up to several minutes.
i have shots exposures of several minutes with my old p25, and it always took twice as long because of the black frame (or what ever it was called).
do you still have to do one of those time consuming frames with the plus backs? if you do, what a bloody head ache to do with a half hour exposure!
paul
It is called a black calibration or black cal for short. The newer P+ backs will do a count for you on the back to tell you how long your exposure is / was.
It will in turn do a black calibration for the exact same amount of time. The black cal file creates a profile to help mask the noise built up in longer exposures
and then applies it to the file to subtract any noise in the capture.
Chris Lawery (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:[email protected])
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Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 404.234.5195
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I could not resist...
Yes, but I only offered you the best I had at the time being, as I was not selling Phase One!
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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Hi BSG.
The best way to make the choice is to try both systems and pick the camera that you like the best. The differences between the backs is going to be the factor that has the least influence on how much you will like the system. I have not tried the P45+, only the P45 and I own the P30+. There could be some differences in how well the backs handle high ISO, that may be important to you. The resolution difference is not so big, so it will only make any real difference in very few cases.
Pick the camera system that works for you and your style and take the back, unless there is a very specific reason you need one back over the other.
Before deciding on the Contax 645 with a P30+ back I went through a long period of borrowing and trying different systems and I ended up buying a completely different kit than I thought I would from the start...looong post about the process here:
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2933 (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2933)
Good luck,
Anders
I am purchasing a new complete MF system, and have 2 options before me and was hoping someone could give me their opinion as to which is a better option. I shoot mostly landscapes for very large prints. Print size is very important to me, as well as long exposures, which is why I chose Phase One in the first place. So now I have to make a decision between two systems, and any advice helps.
System 1 -
Everything brand new
P30+
Phase One 645 camera
80mm lens
System 2 -
P45+ - 20,000 actuations
Hasselblad H2 - about 15,000 actuations
80mm lens- same as body
The 2 systems are almost the same price, the used P45+ will probably come out $2,000 more. I always have the tendancy to go the brand new route, but know the P45+ is probably a better choice. What is the best things to do for my work? Thanks.