Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: BJL on March 27, 2009, 12:23:29 pm
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Some links about the Pentax DMF project, apparently to be released at last (in Japan only, at least initially) in 2010. The indicated price of about one million yen or US$10,000 is nice at least. That price and the fact that Pentax is keeping the 55mm normal lens as part of the project suggests that Pentax is staying with a 44x33mm sensor (55mm diagonal). Though perhaps a new one, like one with the new 6 micron cell size, which would give 40MP.
http://photo.net/medium-format-photography...sTT?unified_p=1 (http://photo.net/medium-format-photography-forum/00SsTT?unified_p=1)
Some in Japanese:
http://www.pentax.jp/japan/news/2009/200907.html (http://www.pentax.jp/japan/news/2009/200907.html)
http://www.digitalcamera.jp/ (http://www.digitalcamera.jp/) (currently this gives PIE 2009 news)
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Some links about the Pentax DMF project, apparently to be released at last (in Japan only, at least initially) in 2010. The indicated price of about one million yen or US$10,000 is nice at least. That price and the fact that Pentax is keeping the 55mm normal lens as part of the project suggests that Pentax is staying with a 44x33mm sensor (55mm diagonal). Though perhaps a new one, like one with the new 6 micron cell size, which would give 40MP.
http://photo.net/medium-format-photography...sTT?unified_p=1 (http://photo.net/medium-format-photography-forum/00SsTT?unified_p=1)
Some in Japanese:
http://www.pentax.jp/japan/news/2009/200907.html (http://www.pentax.jp/japan/news/2009/200907.html)
http://www.digitalcamera.jp/ (http://www.digitalcamera.jp/) (currently this gives PIE 2009 news)
I guess the face of MF digital is about to change, certainly Leica's S2 and this new Pentax with their dslr type handling will give the current players a run for the money. As it is the value of my high priced DBs is already in the toilet, just wonder what happens next year if/when you can get something like this Pentax for 10k! I guess I need to rethink my plan to purchase yet another high priced brick this year.
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Pentax has built some working cameras with the 31MP sensor early last year and given out to testers in Japan, they are probably trying a 40 MP sensor this time around.
31mp working pentax 645d from march, 2008 (http://www.digitalcamera.jp/html/HotNews/image/2008-03/07/p645d/)
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A bit more details here.
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/pie09.shtml (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/pie09.shtml)
Cheers,
Bernard
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I guess the face of MF digital is about to change, certainly Leica's S2 and this new Pentax with their dslr type handling will give the current players a run for the money.
I am not sure about the handling of the Pentax body. It is designed like a MF camera plus back, with lateral grip and tubular shape, similar to a Hasselblad HD, in strong contrast with the Leica S2.
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I am not sure about the handling of the Pentax body. It is designed like a MF camera plus back, with lateral grip and tubular shape, similar to a Hasselblad HD, in strong contrast with the Leica S2.
That's exact what their differences are, Ruben.
If you go for the Pentax you'll have the possibility to upgrade with a bigger sensor 'cause this thing has room for a full size 645 mirror box and prism, it is very important to note that the newly crafted 55mm lens is designated as a D FA lens so you can tell it is designed for 645 full frame.
In the mean time, the sensor size of S2 will always remain as 30x45, a full frame 645 sensor is 72% bigger than the S2 sensor.
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... the newly crafted 55mm lens is designated as a D FA lens so you can tell it is designed for 645 full frame.
How does the name tell you that? The "D" could carry the same significance as in "Pentax DA lenses", namely "digital only, due to being designed for the smaller image circle of the sensor we have chosen for our digital SLRs".
In fact, Pentax has described this as a normal lens designed specifically for digital, whereas a 55mm lens covering the 70mm image circle of 645 is a distinctly wide angle design, as wide as 33mm in 35mm format. Getting a FOV that wide is a distinctly more difficult design than a "normal" design covering only the 55mm image circle of the 44x33mm sensor format that Pentax has been working with for its DMF body. So it seems likely that this lens is specifically for the 44x33mm format, and my guess is that Pentax has chosen that format to position itself as a relatively inexpensive DMF option.
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As an owner of two Pentax 67 bodies and 5 fixed focal length lenses I am wondering:
1 - Will the digital 645 accept the 67 lenses?
2 - How will the 67 lenses perform in terms of resolution and contrast compared to lenses designed for digital cameras?
Any thoughts,
Ken
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How does the name tell you that? The "D" could carry the same significance as in "Pentax DA lenses", namely "digital only, due to being designed for the smaller image circle of the sensor we have chosen for our digital SLRs".
It's just Pentax's naming convention. DA series are designed for cropped sensors, D FA designations are reserved for full frame lenses.
For example, the 2 D FA macro lenses are designed to cover a 35mm full frame sensor. Ditto, the 645 D FA 55mm is designed to cover a 645 full frame sensor.
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As an owner of two Pentax 67 bodies and 5 fixed focal length lenses I am wondering:
1 - Will the digital 645 accept the 67 lenses?
2 - How will the 67 lenses perform in terms of resolution and contrast compared to lenses designed for digital cameras?
Pentax made an 67 -> 645 adapter which is now discontinued, you can use that if you could find one.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/4081..._to_Pentax.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/40816-REG/Pentax_38454_67_Lens_to_Pentax.html)
I've never had any p67 gear myself but I've seen pictures taken with a 67 lens adapted to a k20D, they seem to be quite nice.
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It's just Pentax's naming convention. DA series are designed for cropped sensors, D FA designations are reserved for full frame lenses.
For example, the 2 D FA macro lenses are designed to cover a 35mm full frame sensor. Ditto, the 645 D FA 55mm is designed to cover a 645 full frame sensor.
I would not read too much into that name, which Pentax explains this way
"The PENTAX D FA series, compatible with PENTAX 35mm film cameras, but built specifically for digital SLRs ..."
at http://www.pentaximaging.com/camera-lenses/ (http://www.pentaximaging.com/camera-lenses/)
The promise there is only covering specifically the 35mm frame, with never a use of the highly ambiguous "full frame", so nothing directly relevant to how the naming applies to formats larger than 35mm.
The argument about "normal angular FOV design for 55mm image circle" vs "wide-angle design for 70mm image circle" is more compelling to me than reading the tea-leaves of a product name.
Anyway, we will hopefully see in due time; enough speculation.
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The "Pentax 645D" points to a 645 format camera... Then, you have to use the 645 lenses on cropped sensors, or buy full frame 645 sensors (very expensive, huge files).
Pentax had the possibility of developing a new system based on a smaller sensor, just like Leica, but retaining backwards compatibility with old 645 lenses. However, it seems, Pentax prefers to stay with the original 645 format. This stablishes direct competition with Hasselblad and Mamiya.
In any case, Pentax says the "645D" name is "provisional", so... maybe they are thinking what to do... 645 format or a smaller format...
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The "Pentax 645D" points to a 645 format camera...
For some years Pentax has used a tentative name based on "645" while at the same time talking about using 44x33mm sensors and a 55mm normal lens designed for that sensor format: first the old 18MP Kodak sensor was to be used, and then the next generation 31.6MP Kodak of the same size. So the name is no promise of using the format of 645 film cameras; it could be just to make the connection to the former Pentax 645 film SLR system and the usability of lenses from that system.
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I would not read too much into that name, which Pentax explains this way
"The PENTAX D FA series, compatible with PENTAX 35mm film cameras, but built specifically for digital SLRs ..."
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There you go, if the D FA can be used on a film camera, why isn't it for full frame?
"D FA" lenses are 35mm full frame lenses which can be used on 35mm film cameras and full frame DSLRs (of course, nothing from Pentax at the moment).
"645 D FA" are designed for 645 full frame cameras, film and digital. These are direct words from Pentax, you can believe whatever you want of course.
Pentax has also included a 645 D FA ultra wide angle lens in their roadmap, that is a full frame 645 lens too.
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For some years Pentax has used a tentative name based on "645" while at the same time talking about using 44x33mm sensors and a 55mm normal lens designed for that sensor format: first the old 18MP Kodak sensor was to be used, and then the next generation 31.6MP Kodak of the same size. So the name is no promise of using the format of 645 film cameras; it could be just to make the connection to the former Pentax 645 film SLR system and the usability of lenses from that system.
The sensor may be smaller than 645, but the point is what is the specification for the system: if 645 is the format, and the back is upgradeable, the new lenses and prism must be for 645 format; if the system's format is smaller, the new lenses and prism will be adapted to the new format, and the camera will be "full frame", even if you can use old 645 lenses on it.
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31mp working pentax 645d from march, 2008 (http://www.digitalcamera.jp/html/HotNews/image/2008-03/07/p645d/)
Clever access to the sensor [for cleaning?]
http://www.digitalcamera.jp/html/HotNews/i...5d/P645D-15.jpg (http://www.digitalcamera.jp/html/HotNews/image/2008-03/07/p645d/P645D-15.jpg)
I liked the Pentax 645 for its dampened mirror and film wind action.
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Clever access to the sensor [for cleaning?]
http://www.digitalcamera.jp/html/HotNews/i...5d/P645D-15.jpg (http://www.digitalcamera.jp/html/HotNews/image/2008-03/07/p645d/P645D-15.jpg)
I liked the Pentax 645 for its dampened mirror and film wind action.
And quite a few more pics here:http://www.digitalcamera.jp/html/HotNews/i...08-03/07/p645d/ (http://www.digitalcamera.jp/html/HotNews/image/2008-03/07/p645d/)
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The sensor may be smaller than 645, but the point is what is the specification for the system: if 645 is the format, and the back is upgradeable, the new lenses and prism must be for 645 format; if the system's format is smaller, the new lenses and prism will be adapted to the new format, and the camera will be "full frame", even if you can use old 645 lenses on it.
There is no back on the camera depicted; it is a unibody construction. Frankly, if the body and sensor are going to be tied together anyway, I would prefer something like the S2, which is much more streamlined than the Pentax.
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There you go, if the D FA can be used on a film camera, why isn't it for full frame?
"D FA" lenses are 35mm full frame lenses ...
"645 D FA" are designed for 645 full frame cameras, film and digital. These are direct words from Pentax, you can believe whatever you want of course.
Except that the words "full frame" are solely yours, not those of Pentax. So here is the argument:
- Pentax says "35mm film cameras", with no mention of "full frame"
- you add "full frame" to get "35mm full frame"
- you then remove 35mm to get "full frame"
- you then add 645 to get "645 full frame".
And miraculously, an explicit reference to the 24x36mm format of 35mm film cameras has become a promise of supporting the very different 42x56mm format!
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There is no back on the camera depicted; it is a unibody construction. Frankly, if the body and sensor are going to be tied together anyway, I would prefer something like the S2, which is much more streamlined than the Pentax.
Look at this:
http://www.digitalcamera.jp/html/HotNews/i...08-03/07/p645d/ (http://www.digitalcamera.jp/html/HotNews/image/2008-03/07/p645d/)
The camera has an integrated "back". It seems to be removable... or foldable.
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- Pentax says "35mm film cameras", with no mention of "full frame"
- you add "full frame" to get "35mm full frame"
- you then remove 35mm to get "full frame"
- you then add 645 to get "645 full frame".
And miraculously, an explicit reference to the 24x36mm format of 35mm film cameras has become a promise of supporting the very different 42x56mm format!
Sounds like, um... religion (or mf digital, lol!)
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- Pentax says "35mm film cameras", with no mention of "full frame"
If 35mm film is not full frame then what is?
If you think what I've said is wrong, that is ok.
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The camera has an integrated "back". It seems to be removable... or foldable.
An interesting compromise: it could be at least factory upgradable to a next generation sensor module (unlike the Mamiya ZD or Leica S2 probably) while staying "closed" to third party backs.
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two nice things about this camera-
1/ the screen looks pretty good compared to most of current offerings.
2/ there looks as if there is an o-ring type seal on the CF card door- there might actually be a bit of weather sealing )im extra sensitive to this because my p25 was written off with a small splash of salt water).
but it is very ugly.
also, i cant see how/if they can ever add a vertical grip.
paul
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Who wants a small 33x44 sensor, only a tad bigger than a 24x36 sensor.. Why are pentax throwing it all away when they should know that everone who is a potential buyer wants at least 36x48 or bigger??
Strange..
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Leica's new system is 30 x 45 mm, basically smaller than the PENTAX
This is what Leica has to say about their decision to go in that direction:
[blockquote]"The S2’s metal body is appreciably smaller and easier to carry than similar models from other camera brands, and yet it’s also nearly twice as fast thanks to ultra modern processor technology.
With the S2, Leica has created an entirely new class of camera – technically innovative but incredibly flexible thanks to a wide selection of accessories. It’s a must for every professional photographer who is looking to upgrade from standard 35mm SLR systems...." [/blockquote]
Who wants a small 33x44 sensor, only a tad bigger than a 24x36 sensor.. Why are pentax throwing it all away when they should know that everone who is a potential buyer wants at least 36x48 or bigger??
Strange..
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Who wants a small 33x44 sensor, only a tad bigger than a 24x36 sensor.. Why are pentax throwing it all away when they should know that everone who is a potential buyer wants at least 36x48 or bigger??
I presume you mean that *you* want 36x48 or larger. The P30+ class of backs are selling very well.