Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: gwhitf on March 22, 2009, 11:08:14 am
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David,
Has there ever been a demand for a modified Vertical Grip for the H series body, that would somehow add a second shutter release at the bottom of the rechargeable grip? It does seem like it would need to wrap around the body, like the contax battery grip solution. I just imagine a physically longer rechargeable grip that's basically the same shape as the current one, but it would include a release near the bottom. Maybe I'll sketch a picture later, of what I envision.
I just wonder if it's ever been considered. Would make a nice addition, if you shoot verticals all day.
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David,
Has there ever been a demand for a modified Vertical Grip for the H series body, that would somehow add a second shutter release at the bottom of the rechargeable grip? It does seem like it would need to wrap around the body, like the contax battery grip solution. I just imagine a physically longer rechargeable grip that's basically the same shape as the current one, but it would include a release near the bottom. Maybe I'll sketch a picture later, of what I envision.
I just wonder if it's ever been considered. Would make a nice addition, if you shoot verticals all day.
Photographers have complained about the vertical hand position of the H series from the day it was introduced, way before imacon or even wide adoption of digital was a gleam in Hasselblad's eye.
The world of medium format is a strange one.
The only medium format camera with a digital interface and right angle grip is Contax and since that was out before Hasselblad it's not like it's a new idea.
Even more remarkable is Nikon or Canon can make one of these in what seems to be about 10 minutes for almost every camera they sell.
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One more question for David Grover, regarding the Hasselblad HTS unit:
http://tinyurl.com/cb3ykn (http://tinyurl.com/cb3ykn)
When I look at this HTS unit, and I see what it's made of, and I think of how many times I'd use it (or not), I close my eyes, and I think of a dollar amount that I think that this HTS unit should sell for, and that number is:
$1995, and at most, $2495 USD.
Nothing other than a gut feeling. You look at something, and you think of a number that seems fair. Yet, it's twice that.
Just a little focus group feedback. I'm sure it's a well made unit, but are they just trying to spread the R&D over the eight people that'll ever really buy this thing...?
Why not drop the price out of the stratosphere, and really get it into circulation? Could anyone justify a unit like this, costing more than the original H2 kit, with body, viewfinder, back, and 80 lens....?
Great design is wonderful, but if it just sits on the shelf, unpurchased and unused, what have you achieved? I kept looking for the red dot logo, to justify that price, but couldn't find it.
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dump the rice on the new zoom too...
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One more question for David Grover, regarding the Hasselblad HTS unit:
http://tinyurl.com/cb3ykn (http://tinyurl.com/cb3ykn)
When I look at this HTS unit, and I see what it's made of, and I think of how many times I'd use it (or not), I close my eyes, and I think of a dollar amount that I think that this HTS unit should sell for, and that number is:
$1995, and at most, $2495 USD.
for today standards, it seems a pretty "rudimental' piece of equipment. So much for R&D, the knobs looks like they were borrowed from a Black & Decker tool.
if that "thing" costs above 5 grands, what a BMW M3 should costs? 1 million? 2.... 3....
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Honestly I scratch my head so hard about this one...
has anyone at Hasselblad ever held the H body with a zoom or another heavy lens in the vertical position for more than 5 minutes?
Let alone for 3 days of shooting a look book?
this camera is desperately missing a vertical grip.... every half decent DSLR has an option for one which costs no more than $400!
why not make a comfortable one and put a D3X/1Ds3 style battery in it so we get at least a full mornings session on a battery?
and it has to include an AF-On and vertical shutter as well.
The price of the new Zoom... Honestly why did Hasselblad even make it if they don't intend to sell it.
Because at the current price I don't think anyone except maybe a few rental houses are going to get one.
Just for Perspective the one lens costs more than a D3X where I live.
I like a the H body, I like shooting with the H3D2-31... but some days I just don't get it.
am
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One more question for David Grover, regarding the Hasselblad HTS unit:
http://tinyurl.com/cb3ykn (http://tinyurl.com/cb3ykn)
When I look at this HTS unit, and I see what it's made of, and I think of how many times I'd use it (or not), I close my eyes, and I think of a dollar amount that I think that this HTS unit should sell for, and that number is:
$1995, and at most, $2495 USD.
Nothing other than a gut feeling. You look at something, and you think of a number that seems fair. Yet, it's twice that.
Just a little focus group feedback. I'm sure it's a well made unit, but are they just trying to spread the R&D over the eight people that'll ever really buy this thing...?
Why not drop the price out of the stratosphere, and really get it into circulation? Could anyone justify a unit like this, costing more than the original H2 kit, with body, viewfinder, back, and 80 lens....?
Great design is wonderful, but if it just sits on the shelf, unpurchased and unused, what have you achieved? I kept looking for the red dot logo, to justify that price, but couldn't find it.
Agreed the HTS is not an 'economical' item in terms of cost but does give you a lot of use. It also does contain five elements so is not simply a metal chassis.
Using the HTS will convert five lenses into T/S lenses, so in some ways you could argue that is a better solution than buying two or three T/S lenses.
As for only selling 8... then right now we sell all we manufacture so I am afraid you are mistaken on that front. Probably the fastest selling item off the shelves this quarter. (And before you suggest it we have not made only 10! ;-) )
Also worth noting that unlike any other T/S lens the tilt, shift and rotation values are displayed on the H grip, written into the image file and then used to perform extra lens corrections in the software.
How many would you like?
Best,
David
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for today standards, it seems a pretty "rudimental' piece of equipment. So much for R&D, the knobs looks like they were borrowed from a Black & Decker tool.
if that "thing" costs above 5 grands, what a BMW M3 should costs? 1 million? 2.... 3....
The picture B&H show is an old image and the knob design is different.
Rather than use B&H as a reference for all I would suggest our website...
http://www.hasselblad.com/media/1332322/uk...atasheet_v6.pdf (http://www.hasselblad.com/media/1332322/uk_hts_datasheet_v6.pdf)
The datasheet is yet to be updated with the new design but I will grab an image later today and post it.
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for today standards, it seems a pretty "rudimental' piece of equipment.
Please point me towards a similar product as I am not aware of anything that matches the functionality.
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I think since Hasselblad develops massive tables of DAC corrections, the hardware is priced high to subsidize the software side of development. Focus is free, so what really pays for it then. Phase doesn't put anywhere near as much into their corrections in CO 4.6.
Maybe it would cost $2K if there were no software corrections needed or developed.
I do find it funny, that when we shot 4x5 with tilts and swings, who ever needed or bothered making corrections to the image quality because of the T/S.
Good point John!
The HTS was a massive R&D project with Phocus now containing upwards of 50,000 tables of correction data.
Well if we had 4x5 sized sensors a lot of the additional corrections would not be needed. So unless you want a 50billionMP sensor that cost a million dollars we will probably have to stick with todays methods. :-)
David
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Honestly I scratch my head so hard about this one...
has anyone at Hasselblad ever held the H body with a zoom or another heavy lens in the vertical position for more than 5 minutes?
Let alone for 3 days of shooting a look book?
this camera is desperately missing a vertical grip.... every half decent DSLR has an option for one which costs no more than $400!
why not make a comfortable one and put a D3X/1Ds3 style battery in it so we get at least a full mornings session on a battery?
and it has to include an AF-On and vertical shutter as well.
The price of the new Zoom... Honestly why did Hasselblad even make it if they don't intend to sell it.
Because at the current price I don't think anyone except maybe a few rental houses are going to get one.
Just for Perspective the one lens costs more than a D3X where I live.
I like a the H body, I like shooting with the H3D2-31... but some days I just don't get it.
am
Certainly point taken about the vertical grip, especially with heavy lenses.
As for the zoom, again we sell all we make and it is a very useful range for a lot of photographers. Yes it is a higher price point but it has extraordinary performance for a zoom and again works out cheaper than buying a 35, 50, 80 and 90.
It has a very large front aspherical element which unfortunately can only push up the cost of manufacture.
David
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I ashoot vertical quite often. I even do it with the zoom now and than but if possible I take the 100mm which is all but welded to my H. Vertical is doable but I agree the ergonomics of the H are against it. I certainly would like to see what you mean with a vertical grip? Some contraption added to the bottom? I don't see it without a thorough redesign of the body (maybe have a close look at a bigger version of the D3(x))
I will be another one of those 8 people that buy the HTS. The DoF is getting so thin at closer range (where I am often at) that I can really use the extra tilt even at the expens of a 1.5crop. Even at that price but I would appreciate it when it was priced friendlier.
The new zoom? I will pass on that one for the time being. The range is overlapped mostly by the older. The older I have, so I don' t have to invest. It is heavier and more akward probably but I simply have to convince myself the extra 'training' helps preventing those 'love-handles' and firms the biceps. I even save some money in the process
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Also worth noting that unlike any other T/S lens the tilt, shift and rotation values are displayed on the H grip, written into the image file and then used to perform extra lens corrections in the software.
How many would you like?
David,
Thanks for writing back, with a thorough (and confident) answer. I appreciate it.
Since I use the H body with a Phase back, and don't use the software calculations, can I buy the HTS/Knucklehead model that does not do calculations, but simply provides me with shift, (for $2495)? I just need the Manual Version, (for lesser money). I'll even take that demo unit, with the Black and Decker red knobs. All I want to do is shift, not tilt. No calculations. I just want to stitch two frames end to end without the camera body moving or panning.
If not, thanks for coming on here, and being a human voice for Hasselblad.
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for today standards, it seems a pretty "rudimental' piece of equipment. So much for R&D, the knobs looks like they were borrowed from a Black & Decker tool.
if that "thing" costs above 5 grands, what a BMW M3 should costs? 1 million? 2.... 3....
Here is how the HTS looks now. The material between the two standards was also changed. The knobs are larger, and also have a larger guard to prevent accidental locking of the movements.
[attachment=12412:HTS_new_knobs2.jpg]
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David,
Thanks for writing back, with a thorough (and confident) answer. I appreciate it.
Since I use the H body with a Phase back, and don't use the software calculations, can I buy the HTS/Knucklehead model that does not do calculations, but simply provides me with shift, (for $2495)? I just need the Manual Version, (for lesser money). I'll even take that demo unit, with the Black and Decker red knobs. All I want to do is shift, not tilt. No calculations. I just want to stitch two frames end to end without the camera body moving or panning.
If not, thanks for coming on here, and being a human voice for Hasselblad.
Hi gwhitf (hard to type that),
Yes, you can fit the HTS to your body and Phase Back. It is not exclusive to H3D models. Shifting only, I don't think you would have so many issues, except for a bit of vignetting which you would have to fix in post.
I am afraid there is only one version of the HTS, no vanilla or HTS-Lite is available. All the Black & Decker style ones have been burnt as they had inferior optics to the production ones.
It does do a nice job of stitching though, we have knocked out a few panoramas to good effect.
Pleasure to be here... I think!
David
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Hi gwhitf (hard to type that),
Yes, you can fit the HTS to your body and Phase Back. It is not exclusive to H3D models. Shifting only, I don't think you would have so many issues, except for a bit of vignetting which you would have to fix in post.
I am afraid there is only one version of the HTS, no vanilla or HTS-Lite is available. All the Black & Decker style ones have been burnt as they had inferior optics to the production ones.
It does do a nice job of stitching though, we have knocked out a few panoramas to good effect.
Pleasure to be here... I think!
David
Does this mean that tilt can only be utilized with Phocus software? Is there a workaround for Phase users?
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Does this mean that tilt can only be utilized with Phocus software? Is there a workaround for Phase users?
No, you could use any movement with a Phase/Leaf/Sinar back.
The disadvantage is that you would lose out on the sophisticated lens corrections provided by the H3D and Phocus software.
I guess a bit of shift would not require much but when you throw in tilt/rotation as well then it will save you a lot of time in post production, not having to correct non-linear issues.
David
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Certainly point taken about the vertical grip, especially with heavy lenses.
As for the zoom, again we sell all we make and it is a very useful range for a lot of photographers. Yes it is a higher price point but it has extraordinary performance for a zoom and again works out cheaper than buying a 35, 50, 80 and 90.
It has a very large front aspherical element which unfortunately can only push up the cost of manufacture.
David
David
Thank you for your response, don't get me wrong, I would love to have the zoom, if it was around $5k it would have been a done deal, it's just that this year with billing being down so much, it's very hard to justify almost a $10k (with Tax) purchase.
Maybe next year.
am
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Hi David,
Could you post some examples of your panoramas please. I would be interested in seeing the tilt and shift in action. I guess a wish list post might include both studio and field examples.
Pete
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...but if possible I take the 100mm which is all but welded to my H....
OT but... this statement is so very true, and the clicks I put into my 100 is about double what I put into all the other lenses combined . That lens is worth using the H system alone IMHO (but not everyone elses I presume )
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Certainly point taken about the vertical grip, especially with heavy lenses.
David,
I start a job on Tuesday -- two solid weeks of ads, and every image is 8.5x11 vertical for print. Every frame, vertical. On location.
I challenge you -- imagine it's you shooting verticals for two weeks, twelve hour days. Handheld. Go get an H2 and stick a 100 on it, and hold it vertical for three minutes. Then go get a 5d2 with a vertical grip on it, and hold that vertical for three minutes. Not on a tripod. Be honest -- tell me how it feels after three minutes in your hands. Imagine trying to keep the horizon straight, when you arms are in that position after a half hour.
The H system has been out for how long? And it's still incomplete. For even the most basic of things for an advertising photographer. Yes, it's got a wonderful pop up flash for grandma's f'ing birthday, but where is the Vertical Grip? It just drives me nuts when I think about it -- all this money spent on a great camera, but what do I reach for when it comes to really using it hard? Canon.
Magazines are not dead (yet). There are still verticals to be shot.
The H system is so close, but when push comes to shove, in the real world, the empty facets of your system are driving photographers to Canon and Nikon. (At least it is for me).
I'd *love* to shoot this job on the H, but it's just not going to happen. I just needed to say that to you out loud. I asked that question originally in March, and still, no real answer why it does not exist. It is a GAPING HOLE in your system. The H is perfect for advertising, but it's simply a DRAG to handhold it in vertical position. Think how many verticals are still shot with the H.
There: I feel better. Hope you're doing well.
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There: I feel better.
There is always a workaround for this.
http://shop.ebay.com/items/fishing%20line?_dmd=1&_sop=12 (http://shop.ebay.com/items/fishing%20line?_dmd=1&_sop=12)
Just buy some fishing line and superglue it to the shutter release, then run the line down your pants leg to your big toe.
Tap the toe, take the shot, though a few things you should be aware of.
1. Do not play any Latin Music on set. That toe tapping will get you out of sync with the models.
2. Do not walk around with the camera and a fresh cf card or you will fire 2,000 frames before your ready.
3. Be very careful about how you position that fishing line down the pants leg or you will be like that Dolce Mode guy who wants to give up his left nut to shoot for Zink.*
Good news for Phase One/Mamiya users. The fishing line vertical grip system is open platform. It will also work on the Mamiya 645, though there is some extra shutter lag.
Hope this helps.
BC
*Unless you strategically position the fishing line and then it falls under the catagory, Fun With Medium Format Images.
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gwhitf
I agree 100%
am
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I'd *love* to shoot this job on the H
so why don't you?
I don't want to qualify your (valid) rant... but if you'd *love* to shoot with the H and your P45+ and the second choice is the 5D2... why don't you just use a finder mask and shoot the H horizontally?
The 5d2 has 5616 x 3744 pixels. You are probably going to crop to a 4:3 format so that's 4992x3744 pixels.
With the P45+ shot horizontally but cropped to vertical composition you'll have 5412x4059 pixels ... still the same and you'll have the IQ and look of the P45+ (but probably with a 80mm instead of a 100mm lens)
Don't want to give words of advice to you, certianly not... just wonder why not take the H&P45+ (if it's not for speed, ISO, previews ...).
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Don't want to give words of advice to you, certianly not... just wonder why not take the H&P45+ (if it's not for speed, ISO, previews ...).
Valid point about the pixels, but the recycle of the P45+ just couldn't keep up with this lifestyle job. Plus, the Phase LCD quality. Plus the whole mental torture of trying to picture a vertical 8x5x11 out of a horizontal LCD image. My brain is not capable; it's 99% full before I ever walk in the door. The camera needs to HELP me; not hinder me. Thanks.
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Plus the whole mental torture of trying to picture a vertical 8x5x11 out of a horizontal LCD image.
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David,
I start a job on Tuesday -- two solid weeks of ads, and every image is 8.5x11 vertical for print. Every frame, vertical. On location.
I challenge you -- imagine it's you shooting verticals for two weeks, twelve hour days. Handheld. Go get an H2 and stick a 100 on it, and hold it vertical for three minutes. Then go get a 5d2 with a vertical grip on it, and hold that vertical for three minutes. Not on a tripod. Be honest -- tell me how it feels after three minutes in your hands. Imagine trying to keep the horizon straight, when you arms are in that position after a half hour.
The H system has been out for how long? And it's still incomplete. For even the most basic of things for an advertising photographer. Yes, it's got a wonderful pop up flash for grandma's f'ing birthday, but where is the Vertical Grip? It just drives me nuts when I think about it -- all this money spent on a great camera, but what do I reach for when it comes to really using it hard? Canon.
Magazines are not dead (yet). There are still verticals to be shot.
The H system is so close, but when push comes to shove, in the real world, the empty facets of your system are driving photographers to Canon and Nikon. (At least it is for me).
I'd *love* to shoot this job on the H, but it's just not going to happen. I just needed to say that to you out loud. I asked that question originally in March, and still, no real answer why it does not exist. It is a GAPING HOLE in your system. The H is perfect for advertising, but it's simply a DRAG to handhold it in vertical position. Think how many verticals are still shot with the H.
There: I feel better. Hope you're doing well.
DIY (seriously) How about taking an RZ left hand grip with standard 1/4 threaded knob, attaching an L bracket atop and mounting the hassy on the vertical side? You'd need to come up with a way to mount the release cable or modify the grip's internal contacts and wiring (should be easy as the grip comes apart and has electrical contacts and a cable already). You can get the grip at KEH for $199 (a bit pricey but hey its a solution).
Here's a mockup (with the grip reversed) with a Contax as an example (sans its beloved battery grip) for right handed grip - note it didn't feel uncomfortable with the grip reversed - the ergonomics felt better than the OEM Contax battery grip in my opinion.
[attachment=16167:rz_grip.jpg]
And here's a mockup with a left handed grip - very comfortable on the hand but requires left handed shooting which might not be natural for you:
[attachment=16168:rz_left.jpg]
It would be ironic to see a Mamiya RZ piece save the day on a hassy -
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(http://www.ettergmbh.ch/grafik/tesa.jpg)
So you take the shitty, low-resolution LCD image on the back of the P45+, and then you take the duct tape, and you tape off one-half of an already inferior screen? Obviously, you've never shot a paying job, with your ass on the line.
I know you're kidding, but it's truly a shame about the Hasselblad system and no grip, after all these years. Tens of thousands of dollars invested in a "medium format solution" as they say, and we're down to Duct Tape and an RZ flash bracket to solve Hasselblad's design issues. It would almost be funny if it wasn't so not funny.
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So you take the shitty, low-resolution LCD image on the back of the P45+, and then you take the duct tape, and you tape off one-half of an already inferior screen? Obviously, you've never shot a paying job, with your ass on the line.
I know you're kidding, but it's truly a shame about the Hasselblad system and no grip, after all these years. Tens of thousands of dollars invested in a "medium format solution" as they say, and we're down to Duct Tape and an RZ flash bracket to solve Hasselblad's design issues. It would almost be funny if it wasn't so not funny.
Having SK Grimes make you a grip using the RZ grip/handle would be awesome if the H and P45 cost less than $5k, but since they are cinsiderably more, its retarded and anger inducing. An RZ with a rotating back would be great, but Jesus, its heavy.
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So you take the shitty, low-resolution LCD image on the back of the P45+
no. I don't use the LCD to judge anything as I find it completely useless even in "full resolution". To me it's just a control display to show that something was actually captured and to display the histogram.
I don't know how much you move and if it will work out for you personally but maybe you could use a L bracket and a monopod with a ball head with friction control...? But maybe that's simply too inflexible for you. Just a helpless suggestion...
I know you're kidding, but it's truly a shame about the Hasselblad system and no grip, after all these years. Tens of thousands of dollars invested in a "medium format solution" as they say, and we're down to Duct Tape and an RZ flash bracket to solve Hasselblad's design issues. It would almost be funny if it wasn't so not funny.
very true.
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Count me in for this as well, come on Hasselblad, how hard could it be? And more importantly, how much could it really cost? I am sure you would sell a ton of them and get any R&D back many times over.
Jason.
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Count me in for this as well, come on Hasselblad, how hard could it be? And more importantly, how much could it really cost? I am sure you would sell a ton of them and get any R&D back many times over.
Jason.
me too...I shoot vertical A LOT and have a lowly 22MP, so I need the rez...
BTW, has phase brought out that grip for the phamiya?
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Please point me towards a similar product as I am not aware of anything that matches the functionality.
If you made lenses with some spare image circle, the Flexbody would be ideal, especially with a bit more movement and live view... but the useful feature on the TS is a reflex viewfinder.
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DIY (seriously) How about taking an RZ left hand grip with standard 1/4 threaded knob,
And here's a mockup with a left handed grip - very comfortable on the hand but requires left handed shooting which might not be natural for you:
It would be ironic to see a Mamiya RZ piece save the day on a hassy -
I like using hand-held off camera flash (with fill below the camera) so I would want a one-handed grip, with the weight symmetrically above either hand, depending if you want the main light which side of the subject.
I have 4 Metz flashes, including two for background.
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If you made lenses with some spare image circle, the Flexbody would be ideal, especially with a bit more movement and live view... but the useful feature on the TS is a reflex viewfinder.
..Which would lead to an increase in cost, weight... etc etc, thus making them undesirable for purchase.
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..Which would lead to an increase in cost, weight... etc etc, thus making them undesirable for purchase.
Just to bring things back on topic, how about that vertical grip? I believe the question was originally posed with the desire that David might offer some insight?
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I like using hand-held off camera flash (with fill below the camera) so I would want a one-handed grip, with the weight symmetrically above either hand, depending if you want the main light which side of the subject.
I have 4 Metz flashes, including two for background.
Not sure I understand if you're wanting a grip on the camera or flash but how about a pistol grip?
http://www.keh.com/OnLineStore/ProductDeta...p;GBC=&GCC= (http://www.keh.com/OnLineStore/ProductDetail.aspx?groupsku=RZ180050004990&brandcategoryname=Medium%20Format&Mode=&item=0&ActivateTOC2=&ID=49&BC=RZ&BCC=5&CC=18&CCC=27&BCL=&GBC=&GCC=)
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Not sure I understand if you're wanting a grip on the camera or flash but how about a pistol grip?
I usually hang the fill flash round my neck, but could mount it below the pistol grip.
I had the Hasselblad pistol grip way back in the 70s, and vertical was not a problem with the square format (would have been with the 645 film back).
I modified a pistol grip for my ELD and wire release, and could further modify it by using a shelf bracket as an L-adaptor, with the wire release... perhaps I could sell shelf brackets for $200?
The button of the wire release could be stuck to the front of a monopod, with the L-bracket attached, giving tripod-free mobility without having to hold the Kgs of camera and zoom all week.
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If you made lenses with some spare image circle, the Flexbody would be ideal, especially with a bit more movement and live view... but the useful feature on the HTS is a reflex viewfinder.
..Which would lead to an increase in cost, weight... etc etc, thus making them undesirable for purchase.
This did not prevent you doing it with the V series, but the wide angles did not have enough image circle to make them much use with the Flexbody.
I do not expect you to throw away the HTS and your existing line of lenses and start again, but the Schneider Apo digitar lenses are cheap and light, and from 47 up they have spare image circle. With a flexbody type design (with bag bellows) you could use conventional rather than retro-focus wide angles.
The HTS has, I believe, 10 degrees of tilt and I think none of the current batch of compact digital view cameras have... and some of us are waiting for some one to invent something cost effective and compact.
The Arcbody was a similar concept to the Flexbody, but needed a different set of lenses.