Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: jpgentry on March 04, 2009, 08:28:59 pm
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So at this point I'm of the opinion that printers are a wash for the most part. Image quality seems to be a toss up.
Here's something I want to know for those who have used the different lines - Which printer has the toughest inked surface? I want to print photobooks and would rather not laminate. I think lamination will probably be a must but am curious if any surfaces can hold up to handling.
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I'm not actually sure that looking at the ink properties is the way to go. I think the 'toughness' has more to do with the paper and it's coating to take the ink.
Julie
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I'm not actually sure that looking at the ink properties is the way to go. I think the 'toughness' has more to do with the paper and it's coating to take the ink.
Julie
I would agree with this. It's more about the paper and paper coating. I do think that some inks do better on some papers than others, but I don't think any brand overall is superior. It's about the right paper/coating for the printer/ink set you are using.
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I find Hahnemuhle's Pearl surfaces (Fine Art Pearl and Photo Rag Pearl) to hold up exceptionally well to lots of handling. I've got a box of print samples that I've been carrying around and showing to clients and the Pearl Surfaces are in noticeably better shape than the rest (which include a huge variety of media: cotton rag, fiber base, resin coated, canvas, poly, bamboo, etc).
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That's what I was looking for. I'll have to take a look at those pearl papers. Are you using them with Canon inks?
I notice that prints from the photo lab seem to be better about not scratching than inkjet prints. Not sure if the difference is the ink or paper or both but it seems to be somethig that ink jet process could improve on. Maybe in the future there will be an inkjet printer that includes a coating (like gloss optimizer) that will cover the entire surface of the print to make it last? That would be nice.
I find Hahnemuhle's Pearl surfaces (Fine Art Pearl and Photo Rag Pearl) to hold up exceptionally well to lots of handling. I've got a box of print samples that I've been carrying around and showing to clients and the Pearl Surfaces are in noticeably better shape than the rest (which include a huge variety of media: cotton rag, fiber base, resin coated, canvas, poly, bamboo, etc).
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That's what I was looking for. I'll have to take a look at those pearl papers. Are you using them with Canon inks?
I notice that prints from the photo lab seem to be better about not scratching than inkjet prints. Not sure if the difference is the ink or paper or both but it seems to be somethig that ink jet process could improve on. Maybe in the future there will be an inkjet printer that includes a coating (like gloss optimizer) that will cover the entire surface of the print to make it last? That would be nice.
I'm afraid you are going to find all papers scratch, including RA4 prints, conventional silver based prints on both fibre and resin paper, and inkjet prints. A slightly textured surface like Epson Premium Lustre or the equivalent in fibre is slightly more resistant only because of the texture. The glossy 'baryta' fibre papers are the worst. All inkjet matt papers scuff badly.
I would use other criteria for choosing a paper otherwise you are going to be disappointed with all of them. Scratching was one of the banes of my life. Just try not to let prints slide on top of each other and keep the storage containers or portfolios clean. Better still, hide all the prints away in a box and look at them once a year.
John
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You probably didn't read my post. I'm intersted in printing photobooks. This type of abuse is way beyond your suggestion to "Just try not to let prints slide on top of each other and keep the storage containers or portfolios clean. Better still, hide all the prints away in a box and look at them once a year."
The prints are handled and touched. Many companies make photobooks. I want an inkejet process that will make a tough print and I know it's possible. This needs to be the next frontier of inkjet printing.
-Jonathan
I'm afraid you are going to find all papers scratch, including RA4 prints, conventional silver based prints on both fibre and resin paper, and inkjet prints. A slightly textured surface like Epson Premium Lustre or the equivalent in fibre is slightly more resistant only because of the texture. The glossy 'baryta' fibre papers are the worst. All inkjet matt papers scuff badly.
I would use other criteria for choosing a paper otherwise you are going to be disappointed with all of them. Scratching was one of the banes of my life. Just try not to let prints slide on top of each other and keep the storage containers or portfolios clean. Better still, hide all the prints away in a box and look at them once a year.
John
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Jonathan
There is a paper you may want to give it a try. It is "Inkpress Luster Duo".
This is probabably the most die hard and durable inkjet paper I have ever used. It is a double sided RC paper/300gsm/12 mil/ and reasonably priced.
Avalan
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The prints are handled and touched. Many companies make photobooks. I want an inkejet process that will make a tough print and I know it's possible. This needs to be the next frontier of inkjet printing.
-Jonathan
Even Indigo and NexPress books are a little sensitive to scratching, unless you use a clear coat as one of the colors, or use a coater after printing.
There are some inkjet processes which are much more durable using solvent based inks, but they can't deliver the detail/gamut as the printers most photographers use, and even with these the coatings can be sensitive. The problem with high end inkjet is both the ink and coating can damage somewhat easily.
It could be the z31/3200 printers may have an advantage here assuming you coated the entire print with the gloss optimizer (I assume this is an option, haven't used one of those for a couple of years).
I guess the real question is how durable ... is this a book handled multiple times daily for months? Not many books would hold up ... could be inkjet wouldn't fare that much worse. I did a book on Moab Entrada and it's held up pretty well, but it just sat on the corner of my desk and people would thumb through it when they stopped by to chat.
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That's all I would reasonably expect. Used like a wedding book where it's looked at a lot at first and put away for months. I just notice that the prints from my Canon ipf9100 on Canon Heavyweight Satin paper scratch pretty easily, so I wanted to identify a better combination. These paper choices offered give me a good start, but I hope Epson, Canon and HP take this seriously as something we want.
Even Indigo and NexPress books are a little sensitive to scratching, unless you use a clear coat as one of the colors, or use a coater after printing.
There are some inkjet processes which are much more durable using solvent based inks, but they can't deliver the detail/gamut as the printers most photographers use, and even with these the coatings can be sensitive. The problem with high end inkjet is both the ink and coating can damage somewhat easily.
It could be the z31/3200 printers may have an advantage here assuming you coated the entire print with the gloss optimizer (I assume this is an option, haven't used one of those for a couple of years).
I guess the real question is how durable ... is this a book handled multiple times daily for months? Not many books would hold up ... could be inkjet wouldn't fare that much worse. I did a book on Moab Entrada and it's held up pretty well, but it just sat on the corner of my desk and people would thumb through it when they stopped by to chat.
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greetings
don't know if you are still following this thread but I was curious as to how your book process is turning out?
I've been prepping for a series of one off books for the last 2 months and finally bought my first printer a few days ago.
Truth is, it's been brutal...the bindry, the papers, the lay out changes etc etc
not fun
would love to hear your experiences
s
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Even Indigo and NexPress books are a little sensitive to scratching, unless you use a clear coat as one of the colors, or use a coater after printing.
I am been looking for a solution to these issues too. Does anyone know if there is a clear coat that can be put in place of one of the inks in a Epson printers (X800 etc)? Empty carts are easy enough... but I haven't found the coating substance... yet. It would be great if there is already something on the market, especially if it is neutaral / matt.
Regards,
Scott
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Using a Z3110 HP printer, the only solution I have found is using a lustre paper like HP Instant Dry Satin (gloss enhancer, whole sheet) and then spraying them with a satin or gloss clear coating. Once sprayed the prints are a lot tougher and can be handled, softly rubbed etc and then it is possible to have a careful bookbinder do their stuff.
The lustre surface is important if you want to replicate a RA4 Lustre lab print as close as possible.
As mentioned, this finish helps hide marks etc.