Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Digital Cameras & Shooting Techniques => Topic started by: Snook on January 30, 2009, 04:15:40 pm
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Hey guys was wondering if you all could give me some suggestions about achieving this look the best way possible.
Lighting wise that is:
[attachment=11266:Picture_1.jpg]
Plan on shooting in studio and need to similate the window also.
I figure and HMI spot like would be best but what would be the best way to similate this with flash if possible. If you notice it has no round fresnel type fall off on the images.
Thanks for any suggestions.
Snook
Curios about distant of light to branches and window frame...
Thanks
PS. Not interested in copying the image. Just wonder about shadow effect.
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I'm not sure you should be copying other photographers images into the forum like that...
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I'm not sure you should be copying other photographers images into the forum like that...
Well maybe you should be sure before you comment..:+}
What are you the forum Police?
It has the Logo where it came from if you open your eyes..:+]
Snook
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I don't think anyone is going to come after you because you simulated another's shadows. Get over it people; just because someone puts up some reference doesn't mean they are going to copy it verbatim. Any pro should know that, no disrespect intended.
If you are meaning just the fact that he referenced the image into the forum itself, well he could have just cropped it to include the shadows only but then those who know, probably wouldn't respond to such a cropped image.
Again, no disrespect
peace out
r
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You can achieve this effect using a Source 4 Ellipsoidal Quartz instrument. The Source 4 instrument will have a slot to insert a pattern, sometimes called a cookie. The patterns are made from a thin metal and you can either purchase stock patterns like tree branches and window frames or you can cut your own. The Source 4 is a focusing instrument so you can adjust how sharp or soft you want your pattern. You can probably rent one from a theatrical service supplier.
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Try to use the bare flash tube without any reflector. The trick is not to point the lamp to target the way you would do with a reflector. You have to experiement a bit. With my Broncolor heads it is 90 deg of horizontal axis. This achieves the sun light effect. In theory the light has to come from one point only. So look at what position your bare tube comes closest to this point light.
Hope it helps
happyman
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It looks like an open head with a reflector to me from the double shadows. Either a bare head or some kind of fresnel with a strobe could work too, like a Broncolor Flooter type light
If you get the light far enough back and use a open frame scrim to even it a little where the set is closer to the light, you can keep the light from falling off too much and make it more natural looking.
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It doesn't really matter what light you use, but you should already understand if you want an edgy look you shoot with a smaller light. You want a softer look, you shoot with a bigger light source. This is really quite easy.
Get your self a scrim--build it, buy it, find it--our of wahtever material yuo want. Since it is going between the light and subject, you can make it out of cardboard for ease.
Put the light behind it.
Adjust the light and or scrim up or down to get the angle you want and the right width for your fake frame reflection.
Lighting: Just play with it. Use an umbrella and move it and the scrim you made closer or further away for a softer or harder edged look. Yo don't need any fancy this or that. If you want to concentrate the light going through your "window" wrap some cine foil around the reflector to form a large opening snoot to throw the light in a tighter circle. This means you would be shooting bare bulb, w/o any light modifier, less the stock reflector.
After you get that set up, set you main light as you want it, then reset the fake shadow to an intensity you want for the shadow effect.
There is no way to know the exact distance of the fake window sill you will make or the fake branches either. Just move them around and you'll get it fairly quickly, like about 5 shots using flash.
Flash-->fake branches-->fake window frame-->subject
Just move them around until you get the effect you want.
Am I missing your point?
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No offense Snook, but maybe you missed the notification at the bottom of the opening page on Jedroot:
http://jedroot.com/ (http://jedroot.com/)
http://jedroot.com/images-artwork/index-page/copyright.gif (http://jedroot.com/images-artwork/index-page/copyright.gif)
I am only mentioning this because I have found my images copied to forums, other photographers sites, etc. and it is not that pleasant. I think if we as photographers want to be compensated for our work (as opposed to having our work stolen off of the web, scanned out of magazines, etc.) then we should respect each others work as well. You could very easily post a link to that photo instead of copying and uploading to random forums, white the photographer is unaware.
p.s. Durston, I am not referring to the act of duplicating someone's lighting, I am talking about the uploading of someone's copyrighted images to forums instead of linking to that image. It's illegal, and a little rude in my humble opinion.
Snook, are you cool with people taking images off of your site, posting them in forums, and discussing them however they see fit? Would Michael be cool with that nice image of blue ice on his front page today being copied onto other websites sans permission? I know it happens, but I think pros should know better, and should respect one another's work and one another's copyrights. If we don't, who will??
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No offense Snook, but maybe you missed the notification at the bottom of the opening page on Jedroot:
http://jedroot.com/ (http://jedroot.com/)
http://jedroot.com/images-artwork/index-page/copyright.gif (http://jedroot.com/images-artwork/index-page/copyright.gif)
I am only mentioning this because I have found my images copied to forums, other photographers sites, etc. and it is not that pleasant. I think if we as photographers want to be compensated for our work (as opposed to having our work stolen off of the web, scanned out of magazines, etc.) then we should respect each others work as well. You could very easily post a link to that photo instead of copying and uploading to random forums, white the photographer is unaware.
p.s. Durston, I am not referring to the act of duplicating someone's lighting, I am talking about the uploading of someone's copyrighted images to forums instead of linking to that image. It's illegal, and a little rude in my humble opinion.
Snook, are you cool with people taking images off of your site, posting them in forums, and discussing them however they see fit? Would Michael be cool with that nice image of blue ice on his front page today being copied onto other websites sans permission? I know it happens, but I think pros should know better, and should respect one another's work and one another's copyrights. If we don't, who will??
+1...to link is much more appropriate....hope no one is offended...
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An important consideration in achieving the effect you want is the "sharpness" of the shadows. That's going to depend on size, distance from light, and distance from subject. If you want it soft, close to the light will be fine. But if you want it sharp like a real window, you're probably facing a large frame closer to the subject and a point-source light some distance behind the frame.
It's all adjustable, but within the constraints of shooting distances in your studio. I'm betting 20 feet won't be too much by any means. We've got 30' in our larger shooting room, and it's often confining.
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Snook,
The size of the light pattern makes me wonder if it isn't sunlight through a window and tree. However the blurring of the pattern, the left-right repeat of the center shadow, looks like a projection attachment was used and it was slightly defocused.
To recreate this in a studio you need a projection device such as a Source 4 (http://www.etcconnect.com/product.overview.aspx?ID=20080) for continuous light or a Spot Projection Attachment (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/201788-REG/Speedotron_12339_6_Variable_Focus_Zoom.html) for electronic flash. Then go to GAM (http://www.gamonline.com/catalog/pattern_dsply.php?cat=58) to obtain the patterns which are inserted into the projection attachment using a pattern holder.
Chris Gahran
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Another vote for the Source 4.
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Thanks guys for all the good ideas.
LisaR I would be flattered if people discuss my lighting. That shot was published in a magazine anyways. Also as stated I am wondering about shadow distance in a small studio.
I will be doing a similar shoot with out model and actually nothing like that image apart from the shadows really.
Also, I am not trying to copy anybody's work. Never have and never will need to hopefully.
The Link is a good idea that I did not think of and will try to fix if anybody is offended.
I am not stealing the images in anyway. If anything more publicity for the shooter. which it is all about...:+}
Anyways it does not look like it was real light and window to me but after post you nerv know these days.
My idea was a fake window scrimmed up close for sharper shadows and the branches further (from subject/closer to light source) to be softer and the main light as small and far back as possible.? Maybe just a bare bulb angle upward.
In any case thanks for all the suggestions and keep them coming..:+}
Snook
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"Anyways it does not look like it was real light and window to me but after post you nerv know these days."
It looks like natural light to me otherwise there would be divergence of the light rays coming from a single light source close to the setup. To avoid obvious divergence to ant extent the light source would have to be like 50 yards away. That is why artificial splashes of sunlight in architectural interiors stick out like a sore thumb. Real sunlight does not have diverging lines.
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Just cut a scrim out of cardboard man and save yourself the money. If you need lots of control over the light that makes the pattern, use barn doors. It is sooooo incredibly easy to do yourself with a utility knife and cardboard.
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Looks to me like the light is about 40' or better away from the "frame" and branch diffusion and I'd guess the spill distance from the diffusion to the model and couch is about 15-20' if I had to guess which is what I am doing. I'd also guess at 4800ws with a cone and no modifier.
Saying that obviously I vote that its artificial lighting AND an artificial window frame tree branch effect just by the scale of it the frame shadow-light effect seems unnatural and I spent years working in the movie biz so I got used to seeing this kind of stuff.
Of course I could be just piss drunk and have a totally unfounded opinion but I suppose that I'd not judge myself too harshly either seeing as GSP just took out BJ in proper fashion and its late. Get sum
Then again I might be right. Sooner or later if I keep guessing I'm sure I'll hit one of those nails on the head
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You need a lens in front of your light to focus the beam
Fresnel spot + gobo ?
Ive got sort of similar with an old nikkor taped into the snoot of my elly - but light loss was horrible
or have the light source miles away - you are trying to replicate a light source that is millions of miles away
s
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Try the Profoto Fresnel Spot with some big branches you find on the ground. Depending on the depth/size of the branches, you should get fairly close to that effect. You could cut the window frame out of foamcore and hang it by fishing wire from a boom arm. Make sure to tie the frame down so it doesn't move in case you use wind or need the composition exact in each shot.
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what about:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1853...r_for_Size.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/185376-REG/Medalight_PGPM_Pattern_Maker_for_Size.html)
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/4426...tern_Maker.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/442600-REG/Smith_Victor_401275_Pattern_Maker.html)
looks like a cheap alternative.
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what about:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1853...r_for_Size.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/185376-REG/Medalight_PGPM_Pattern_Maker_for_Size.html)
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/4426...tern_Maker.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/442600-REG/Smith_Victor_401275_Pattern_Maker.html)
looks like a cheap alternative.
Well where I live I am very limited to resources..
I am renting a 25k HMI..
Any suggestions as to distance etc...
If I want the branches to have sharper shadows they should be closer to the background and further from the light source, correct?
Just double checking my specs.. I am going to do a trial in the studio the day before the shoot.
I have another doubt as to wether I should put a diffusion panel in front of the HMI or just leave it bare?
Thanks for anymore suggestions. I am not sure the shots I do will be so open, I think they will tighter and not even going to see the floor...
Thanks guys
Snook
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High:
You need to build a set and have a good ammount of space between the light and the fake window. Think of the distance relashionship between the light source (and size) distance to fake window and the distance from the fake window to the wall or walls that the shadow is to be projected. The distance between the light source and the window should be more than the distance from the fake window to the wall where the shadow will fall.
HMI will give a wonderfull light but you can use a large 10k fresnel (tungsten). It will give you a nice sharp shadow (better than the one in the image shown for reference) but still be soft enough to be very pleasant on a model.
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Looks to me like the light is about 40' or better away from the "frame" and branch diffusion and I'd guess the spill distance from the diffusion to the model and couch is about 15-20'
Then again I might be right. Sooner or later if I keep guessing I'm sure I'll hit one of those nails on the head
I agree. Unless this is a comp, I'd guess that it's a big setup. ie, long distance required from source to set and a big light. The light is covering a large area of the backdrop so it's quite far away and the shadow-making goboes are a fair distance from the source. Tens of feet, at least.
A bare HMI would be my choice, too. If you can remove the lens from the lamp, the shadows will be even sharper. An arc light with the lens removed is the ultimate hard source. (not counting the sun) The 25K should certainly do. You're correct that the farther from the source the goboes are, the sharper their shadows, hence the need for a large set.
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I agree. Unless this is a comp, I'd guess that it's a big setup. ie, long distance required from source to set and a big light. The light is covering a large area of the backdrop so it's quite far away and the shadow-making goboes are a fair distance from the source. Tens of feet, at least.
A bare HMI would be my choice, too. If you can remove the lens from the lamp, the shadows will be even sharper. An arc light with the lens removed is the ultimate hard source. (not counting the sun) The 25K should certainly do. You're correct that the farther from the source the goboes are, the sharper their shadows, hence the need for a large set.
Thank you guys...
I guess Flash would be out of the picture them?
Also and recommendations when mixing Flash with the HMI?
My reference is a little off maybe as the client toldme I do not need to see such a Big area and maybe not even a floor... that will help in the size department and distance I will need.
I was thinking about setting the shadow to the background in some shots only and lighting the model who will behind some dry branches brought into the studio..
Thank for the advice and anymore advice is welcome...:+]
Thanks guys
Snook
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As lots of people come here to learn, may I offer:
GOBO - The derivation "Goes Before Optics" is from motion picture production, where gobo is an antiquated term for a what is now called a "flag". (wikipedia) Casts a shadow.
COOKIE- also known as a cucalorus, is traditionally a small plate of metal with shapes cut into it, inserted in an ellipsoidal spotlight. By placing the cookie in the path of the light, the cut out areas create light and shadow shapes that are projected onto a background.
SCRIM- A scrim or gauze is a very light textile. OR It is a small screen that is slot loaded into a light can to lower its intensity. Scrims are often circular with thin aluminum or steel frame holding the screen together. Half scrims only have half of the scrim covered with a wire mesh. Usually diffuses light, gives soft shadows.
To get sharp shadows - small light source and/or distant light source OR cookie
To get parallel shadow lines - distant light source OR cookie (with very very careful geometry)
A 25kW Fresnel is a large area source and would need to be a long way away.
(edit- I'm guessing Snook meant a 2.5kW HMI. A Par version would work at a distance, a fresnel version would work better without the lens and reflector. A 25kW light usually comes with a truck mounted generator!)
As suggested by others - a bare flash, hot light or HMI lamp, preferably flagged to control spill, gives sharp shadows.
Best
Wollom
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As lots of people come here to learn, may I offer:
GOBO - The derivation "Goes Before Optics" is from motion picture production, where gobo is an antiquated term for a what is now called a "flag". (wikipedia) Casts a shadow.
COOKIE- also known as a cucalorus, is traditionally a small plate of metal with shapes cut into it, inserted in an ellipsoidal spotlight. By placing the cookie in the path of the light, the cut out areas create light and shadow shapes that are projected onto a background.
SCRIM- A scrim or gauze is a very light textile. OR It is a small screen that is slot loaded into a light can to lower its intensity. Scrims are often circular with thin aluminum or steel frame holding the screen together. Half scrims only have half of the scrim covered with a wire mesh. Usually diffuses light, gives soft shadows.
To get sharp shadows - small light source and/or distant light source OR cookie
To get parallel shadow lines - distant light source OR cookie (with very very careful geometry)
A 25kW Fresnel is a large area source and would need to be a long way away.
(edit- I'm guessing Snook meant a 2.5kW HMI. A Par version would work at a distance, a fresnel version would work better without the lens and reflector. A 25kW light usually comes with a truck mounted generator!)
As suggested by others - a bare flash, hot light or HMI lamp, preferably flagged to control spill, gives sharp shadows.
Best
Wollom
Hey Wollom, Thank for the reply..
I know what the terms mean and where I live unfortunelty there not too many options.
Also yes I meant a 2.5k and I have a 5k if needed.
To tell you the truth I would rather use flash but not sure it would work s great...?
I am going to post some more images that are references.
I think the large shadow as I posted will not be used so most images will be portrait framed so shadow need to be on wall behind model and or crossing her/him.
I have Profoto 7a with one head and a Bowens 1000 watt head and lot's of smaller heads profoto and Bowens.
Also the window shadow has been eliminated making the shoot easier I think.
My studio is about 12 meters long and 3-4 meters wide. I was thinking about trying the profoto 7a head with out reflector. Not sure if I should have it angled upwards to the ceiling or straight on??
What is going to create a "better" shadow or smaller light source?
That i was planning on putting in the back corner. then but branches about half way bewtween light source and "model". depening on the shadows wanted. My only doubt really is that some shots they want the branhces in front of the model and some shadows from branches behind the "model"??
Not sure I have the space to do that as my studio is not so wide....
Here comes 2 more examples:
[attachment=11426:Picture_1.png]
[attachment=11427:Picture_2.png]
[attachment=11428:Picture_3.png]
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'Snook' date='Feb 10 2009, 06:34 AM' post='258874']
>I am going to post some more images that are references.
These are totally different images from the first reference. The geometry of the setup is easily do-able in a studio. Note the size of the background area that's lit with the effect. It's far, far smaller. Mr. Gittings said what I was afraid to say, and that is that the original reference image was natural light. I agree.
>Also the window shadow has been eliminated making the shoot easier I think.
Much easier. If you didn't have a window available, you'd have to build one. A set piece.
>What is going to create a "better" shadow or smaller light source?
I can't comment on your specific flash use since I have virtually no experience with flash as a set light. A bare tube I imagine would produce harder shadows than a reflected unit. The smaller the apparent size of the source (as viewed from the subject) the sharper the shadows.
Notes on terminology.
A "flag" is a device to remove light from a part of the set - usually black fabric rectangles on frames that mount in C-stands. Also large drapes hung in the set or stretched on very large frames.
A "gobo" is any device placed in front of a light to create a lighting effect. A flag used to create a small bar of shadow on the set would be more accurately called a gobo, since it's creating an effect, rather than removing light from, say, the ceiling or the camera. The shadow-casting branches in the reference images are gobos. Gobos are sometimes called "breakups", because they break up shadow patterns.
A "scrim" is usually used in movie work to lower the level of light without greatly altering its character. It can also be used as a large scale lens filter when the camera photographs through the scrim to the set. It's usually a featureless screen material like a screen door. It can be black, white, or coloured.
I believe that a scrim that consisted of a lace pattern that cast lacy shadows on a set would correctly be termed a gobo, and not a "scrim" since its task was to create shadows, not reduce light levels.
I could also be full of it. : )
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I guess Flash would be out of the picture them?
Don't forget the Profoto Fresnelspot (http://www.profoto.com/products/profoto/lightshapingtools/spotlights/fresnel-spot).
It is a Arri customized by Profoto.
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In my experience, the best method for projecting a pattern on a set is to use a collimated optical device that can use 4 inch patterns. Fresnels throw the light but they don't act as a projector.
It appears the Profoto Zoom Spot can handle the 4 inch patterns but the copy doesn't expressly say it can.
Profoto Zoom Spot (http://www.profoto.com/products/profoto/lightshapingtools/spotlights/zoom-spot)
Continuous light solution: Source Four (http://www.etcconnect.com/product.overview.aspx?ID=20080)
Chris Gahran
Don't forget the Profoto Fresnelspot (http://www.profoto.com/products/profoto/lightshapingtools/spotlights/fresnel-spot).
It is a Arri customized by Profoto.
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Hey guys was wondering if you all could give me some suggestions about achieving this look the best way possible.
Lighting wise that is:
[attachment=11266:Picture_1.jpg]
Plan on shooting in studio and need to similate the window also.
I figure and HMI spot like would be best but what would be the best way to similate this with flash if possible. If you notice it has no round fresnel type fall off on the images.
Thanks for any suggestions.
Snook
Curios about distant of light to branches and window frame...
Thanks
PS. Not interested in copying the image. Just wonder about shadow effect.
It is a flashhead (double shadows) outside a building behind a tree, flashing into the room, you will have nicer shadows with a fresnel spot.
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It is a flashhead (double shadows) outside a building behind a tree, flashing into the room, you will have nicer shadows with a fresnel spot.
You know looking at this detail, I think I was wrong about it being natural light and you may be right. This looks like maybe an 8" reflector???
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Hey guys thanks for all the nice suggestions, I really appreciate it..
I will definitely post some of the images when I do it.
Thanks
Snook
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I bought a speedo 4800ws pack with the big mono head ( dont know the model# we just call it the sun gun ) for these types of uses. The color temps are a bit whacky on it now its old as moses I'd guess 15 yrs? Regardless it was cheap and works great when I need to overdrive my other heads for this sunlight effect and so long as its at the upper end of exposure limits the color temp issues are not present. Used it many times when trying to fake outdoor hardlight when I'm indoors like a backyard BBQ patio set with models we did in the middle of winter last year indoors. No one could tell it wasn't outdoors so it saved my bacon there.
A bit late now so I'm not sure if this info will help you at all Snook but I'm still guessing its a cone reflector on a powerful strobe/flash/whatever at around those distances I posted earlier. I dont use those fresnels much so I dont know either way there. Anyways
Sounds like your on a good path I'm sure it'll work out fine. Kind of curious to see the final shot and what it took. This is a great board for sharing these kinds of issues and ideas though
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Hey Wollom, Thank for the reply..
I know what the terms mean and where I live unfortunelty there not too many options.
[attachment=11428:Picture_3.png]
Hey Snook, I was a bit hesitant posting definitions, we are all from different parts of the world and with moving and still image backgrounds, lots of variation in use of terms. I was thinking that there are folk here who come to learn and might be confused; the terms overlap somewhat and there was a post suggesting using a scrim. I used to think of a scrim as a wire mesh ND for lights but worked with someone who called a coarse fabric 'silk' a 'scrim'. My point was really that you'll be using flags, gobos and cookies, not scrims.
Can't wait to see the result.
Cheers
Wollom
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Well shoot is tomorrow...
The art drector called me this week and said she wanted me to do it with a projector.??
So I found the biggest strongest projector I could and will try it out tomorrow.
If not then it's the Profoto 7A.
Will post some examples afterwards. The jobs is until next wednesday...:+]
Thanks all the suggestions
Snook
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Well shoot is tomorrow...
The art drector called me this week and said she wanted me to do it with a projector.??
So I found the biggest strongest projector I could and will try it out tomorrow.
If not then it's the Profoto 7A.
Will post some examples afterwards. The jobs is until next wednesday...:+]
Thanks all the suggestions
Snook
Hi Snook,
On a job like this, why don't you plan one pre-light day in your contract?
I am curious to see the result.
Yanick
http://www.yanickdery.com (http://www.yanickdery.com)
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Hi Snook,
On a job like this, why don't you plan one pre-light day in your contract?
I am curious to see the result.
Yanick
http://www.yanickdery.com (http://www.yanickdery.com)
Well we tried it and to me it looked great..
But the client chickened out afraid the clothing would not be seen well enough???
They were afraid that if they did not like it they could not get rid of the pattern or image on the clothing that was projected!!
Also the Person was an actress that did not have the best skin so the light was not flattering...:+]
I try and post the images, My stupid assistant threw out the trials!!!! ARGGGGGGGGG!
Have another session today..
Snook
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Well we tried it and to me it looked great..
But the client chickened out afraid the clothing would not be seen well enough???
They were afraid that if they did not like it they could not get rid of the pattern or image on the clothing that was projected!!
Also the Person was an actress that did not have the best skin so the light was not flattering...:+]
I try and post the images, My stupid assistant threw out the trials!!!! ARGGGGGGGGG!
Have another session today..
Snook
Hi Snook, can you post some results ?
thanks