Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: bdp on December 18, 2008, 12:32:40 am
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http://www.imaginginsider.com/?p=83357 (http://www.imaginginsider.com/?p=83357)
Which MFDB companies are likely to use this? Is it the Hassy 50MP chip? Unlikely Sinar will pick it up when they have an agreement with Leaf to use the 2:3 56MP chip in the Aptus-II 10, but it would be a step up from their current 33MP maximum if customers didn't want the 2:3 ratio (although it can simply be cropped down to a 50MP 3:4 ratio). No point for Phase when they have a 39 and now a 60MP chip, or would it fit nicely in between the two?
Ben
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The H3D50 uses a Kodak sensor.
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Ah ha. I was just curious because of the following line in the press release: "...it is already generating demand from customers in one of the world’s most demanding imaging applications: medium format professional digital photography."
After looking at the Dalsa website it looks like this sensor uses microlenses over but has no problem with wide angle lenses. At least I think this is what it says in the download about halfway down on this page: http://www.dalsa.com/sensors/news/news.aspx?itemID=167 (http://www.dalsa.com/sensors/news/news.aspx?itemID=167) Look at page 3 under Optimization of Microlenses
This is Dalsa's answer to the Kodak 50MP chip which they call 'New Benchmark [5]' on the last page, which doesn't use microlenses, but the same size pixels (6.0)
Ben
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It's still 48x36mm. I really had my hopes up for a larger sensor when I saw the title.
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Big enough, surely? I find it hard to get excited about another millimetre here or there, but then again I don't shoot much wide angle stuff. Or were you hoping for a square format 56mmx56mm type sensor, which is much larger? A 6x7 or 6x8 MF chip would revive a creative dimension that was unique to MF photography. Maybe we will have to wait a few more years....
Ben
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Big enough, surely? I find it hard to get excited about another millimetre here or there, but then again I don't shoot much wide angle stuff. Or were you hoping for a square format 56mmx56mm type sensor, which is much larger?
Just hoping for more 56x42mm options (645 full frame). Will make quite a difference at the wide end. A 40mm lens (which I have) on a 645 sensor is equivalent to 34mm on a 48x36 or a 31mm on a 44x33mm sensor. That's a significant difference. It means an even larger viewfinder image too, never a bad thing
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Just hoping for more 56x42mm options (645 full frame). Will make quite a difference at the wide end. A 40mm lens (which I have) on a 645 sensor is equivalent to 34mm on a 48x36 or a 31mm on a 44x33mm sensor. That's a significant difference. It means an even larger viewfinder image too, never a bad thing
Graham -
I'm in agreement with you, but might you clarify those mm equivalents? Are those MF equivalents, or 35 mm? And maybe check the equivalent for the 44 x 33 sensor, seems to be wider than narrower.
Best,
Geoff
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I wonder who will be first to use this sensor? Leaf, Sinar, Phase or the ZD back?
Denis
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Phase One is already using a Dalsa 60.5 megapixel sensor in their P65+ back (53.9 x 40.4mm).
Jerry
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After looking at the Dalsa website it looks like this sensor uses microlenses over but has no problem with wide angle lenses. At least I think this is what it says in the download about halfway down on this page:
Indeed: this is potentially big news for MF sensors, and maybe for rangefinders too. Dalsa's new sensor uses micro-lenses which about double sensitivity, but unlike any previous micro-lenses, these give the same or better off-angle response as previous CCD's without micro-lenses, good out to about 35º off-axis. This means that shift lenses, wide-angle lenses and such should work fine, so that all Dalsa MF sensors should be able to have micro-lenses from now on, and thus about one stop more speed.
With this technology, Leica might at last be able to use a full 35mm format sensor in an "M" rangefinder.
So: more (ISO) speed, greater dynamic range, and greater resolution than the previous generation of sensors from Dalsa and Kodak --- but I am sure than some people will find cause to complain.
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It works with microlenses. Unusable with tilt-shift lenses or with technical cameras.
PdF
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unlike any previous micro-lenses, these give the same or better off-angle response as previous CCD's without micro-lenses, good out to about 35º off-axis. This means that shift lenses, wide-angle lenses and such should work fine
It works with microlenses. Unusable with tilt-shift lenses or with technical cameras.
LOL!
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PdF - this chip is different. Forget everything you know about the limitations of microlens-equipped chips.
Ben
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Why not wait and see how this sensor actually performs. I does sounds promising but for some reason that word doesn't mean much when it comes to this kind of equipment.
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It works with microlenses. Unusable with tilt-shift lenses or with technical cameras.
Read my post just above yours, or read Dalsa's publication at http://www.dalsa.com/public/corp/pdfs/DALS...dings_final.pdf (http://www.dalsa.com/public/corp/pdfs/DALSA_IEDM_2008_proceedings_final.pdf)
This sensor's off-axis performance is now as good as in sensors without micro-lenses.
(Unless ones want to be cynical of published precise quantitative measurements like the graphs in Dalsa's paper ... I am cynical about such cynicism, because a company like Dalsa would suffer badly with its industrial customers if it published blatantly false data, whose falsehood the engineers at such customers would very likely discover in their own testing.)
Aside: The address is
DALSA Professional Imaging, High Tech Campus 27, 5656 AE Eindhoven, The Netherlands
so some significant part of Dalsa is still in the Netherlands, like when it was part of Phillips, even if part is now in Canada.
P. S. Another potential for these improved microlenses is allowing better, more compact wide to normal lenses for EVIL cameras, like micro FourThirds and the system that Samsung says it has coming in 2010. This could emphasize the size advantage over SLR's, just as range-finders have that size advantage.
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Read my post just above yours, or read Dalsa's publication at http://www.dalsa.com/public/corp/pdfs/DALS...dings_final.pdf (http://www.dalsa.com/public/corp/pdfs/DALSA_IEDM_2008_proceedings_final.pdf)
This sensor's off-axis performance is now as good as in sensors without micro-lenses.
(Unless ones want to be cynical of published precise quantitative measurements like the graphs in Dalsa's paper ... I am cynical about such cynicism, because a company like Dalsa would suffer badly with its industrial customers if it published blatantly false data, whose falsehood the engineers at such customers would very likely discover in their own testing.)
Aside: The address is
DALSA Professional Imaging, High Tech Campus 27, 5656 AE Eindhoven, The Netherlands
so some significant part of Dalsa is still in the Netherlands, like when it was part of Phillips, even if part is now in Canada.
P. S. Another potential for these improved microlenses is allowing better, more compact wide to normal lenses for EVIL cameras, like micro FourThirds and the system that Samsung says it has coming in 2010. This could emphasize the size advantage over SLR's, just as range-finders have that size advantage.
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Read my post just above yours, or read Dalsa's publication at http://www.dalsa.com/public/corp/pdfs/DALS...dings_final.pdf (http://www.dalsa.com/public/corp/pdfs/DALSA_IEDM_2008_proceedings_final.pdf)
This sensor's off-axis performance is now as good as in sensors without micro-lenses.
(Unless ones want to be cynical of published precise quantitative measurements like the graphs in Dalsa's paper ... I am cynical about such cynicism, because a company like Dalsa would suffer badly with its industrial customers if it published blatantly false data, whose falsehood the engineers at such customers would very likely discover in their own testing.)
Aside: The address is
DALSA Professional Imaging, High Tech Campus 27, 5656 AE Eindhoven, The Netherlands
so some significant part of Dalsa is still in the Netherlands, like when it was part of Phillips, even if part is now in Canada.
P. S. Another potential for these improved microlenses is allowing better, more compact wide to normal lenses for EVIL cameras, like micro FourThirds and the system that Samsung says it has coming in 2010. This could emphasize the size advantage over SLR's, just as range-finders have that size advantage.
Oups !
Sorry: I'm too impatient those last days. Maybe because I'm realy busy (too much work, of course !...). I don't want to be sarcastic: I only forgot to read your last post before the mine.
Please excuse me.
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Read my post just above yours, or read Dalsa's publication at http://www.dalsa.com/public/corp/pdfs/DALS...dings_final.pdf (http://www.dalsa.com/public/corp/pdfs/DALSA_IEDM_2008_proceedings_final.pdf)
This sensor's off-axis performance is now as good as in sensors without micro-lenses.
Actually this is the kind of sensor development I wanted to see before upgrading/buying another new MF back or camera. Two of my two biggest bugbears are
1) Off axis problems
2) Low sensitivity.
I don't think this helps with the other elephant in the room for those of us using wide non-retrofocus lenses though, sensor uniformity. I await avidly for some firm news of improvements in this area.
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Aside: The address is
DALSA Professional Imaging, High Tech Campus 27, 5656 AE Eindhoven, The Netherlands
so some significant part of Dalsa is still in the Netherlands, like when it was part of Phillips, even if part is now in Canada.
I am not sure why a "significant part" is in the Netherlands, and "part" is in in Canada. Are you maybe Dutch? This quote is easily found on the DALSA website: "DALSA is headquartered in Waterloo, Ontario, Canada".
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I am not sure why a "significant part" is in the Netherlands, and "part" is in in Canada. Are you maybe Dutch? This quote is easily found on the DALSA website: "DALSA is headquartered in Waterloo, Ontario, Canada".
And you carstenw, are you Canadian?
I found this threat interesting until - well, again someone has to turn it into a dutch versus canadian / 35mm versus mf / art versus moral / bla bla bla
Anyway
Have a nice xmas guys
Frank
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And you carstenw, are you Canadian?
British-Canadian, to be more exact. I also graduated from the University of Waterloo and DALSA is a hi-tech spin-off of that university. I just thought it was bizarre to see the Dutch address posted, when the company was founded and is headquartered in Waterloo. Btw, I am sure that the Dutch guys are doing great work, that is not my point here.
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British-Canadian, to be more exact. I also graduated from the University of Waterloo and DALSA is a hi-tech spin-off of that university. I just thought it was bizarre to see the Dutch address posted, when the company was founded and is headquartered in Waterloo.
I give up
nevermind
/F
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I wonder who will be first to use this sensor? Leaf, Sinar, Phase or the ZD back?
Denis
Pardon me waking up a thread for 2008, but it seems we now have an answer! Sinar, in the Sinarback eVolution86 H:
See the News tab at http://www.capturescanprint.com/
The spec's match only this sensor, not the similar Kodak 50MP one.
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it's only taken 2 years to get into a production medium format back. or do we wait another 2 years from the press release?
::)
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It works with microlenses. Unusable with tilt-shift lenses or with technical cameras.
PdF
These are 2nd gen micolenses - user friendly with t/s and tech camera - esp wide angle. (I had the same impressions as you until I read info on Dalsa new microlenses.) Leave it to us Canadians knowhow... :p Question now is pixel diffraction w/ 6 micron on a HR23 or HR28 with the full size sensor. 40mm is fine and even 35mm, but would be interesting to find out more when the 48mp hits the road.
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These are 2nd gen micolenses - user friendly with t/s and tech camera - esp wide angle. (I had the same impressions as you until I read info on Dalsa new microlenses.) Leave it to us Canadians knowhow... :p
I need to see it to believe it.
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I need to see it to believe it.
CI tested the P40+ (which has the new WA microlenses) on Cambo on t/s HR40 and confirmed that it is fine and perfect! I wanted to believe them so I got a hold of a P40+ and played with it myself on HR28mm and t/s HR40. CI was right. But that was not full frame sensor - it is much smaller) so there was no issue with "softness" at the edge of the image frame. But the t/s "seems" to work well with the P40+. But then again, I have NOT had a DB that worked well with my outdoor tech cameras for the last 3 yrs! lol... ;D
Someone is going to Cologne to test the new HR32 with the Sinar 48mp - of course via the arTec. I am also curious how it all plays out "when the rubber hits the road".