Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: bradleygibson on December 07, 2008, 12:21:46 pm
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A few weeks ago I put out a feeler to see if there would be interest in swapping my Hy6 body + e75LV back for a Phase AFD III and P45+. I had a number of creative and compelling alternative swap/trade offers.
My thinking behind the move, as I told the folks who had contacted me was just a business decision. My goal was to get access to some long, fast tele glass (and higher shutter speeds) to be able to do more medium-format wildlife work. Yes, I'm well aware that MF is not the "ideal" platform for wildlife work, but I believe it would work well for me, and would help me to deliver unique and compelling results.
But in the end, after spending some time test driving a Phase AFD III body, I found that I did prefer the ergonomics of the Hy6. I definitely preferred the feel of the Rollei glass to the feel of the Mamiya glass. But in all fairness, the Mamiya 80/2.8 D is a killer optic--and that's worth something. I was unimpressed by the 28mm and left somewhere in between (more to the favorable side) with all the other lenses.
I have also found that the P45+ (I used to own one) has superior low-ISO performance in terms of noise. Again, this is fully subjective. But when I test drove all the Dalsa-based solutions out there -- the Leaf Aptus, the Sinar eMotion and the Phase P65+, I found that all of them had that similar low-ISO noise fingerprint. From the one test shot I've seen of the Leaf AFi II-10, it also has the same behavior. So since I intend to upgrade to 50+ megapixels sometime next year, all my potential solutions are basically on the same playing field, and there is no longer that advantage with the Phase lineup.
With the Sinar eMotion 75, I find the extra step of converting .IA/.BR/.WR files to .DNG to be time-consuming. But unless someone is asleep at the wheel, the Sinar-branded AFi-II 10 won't do this (or if it does, I'll be looking at the Leaf version). So regardless, the inconvenient time-consuming extra workflow step (which is, for me, the Sinar Hy6/e75 system's weakest point) becomes a temporary issue--it goes away once I upgrade to the AFi II-10/"eMotion 96" (if Sinar keeps to their naming convention for the re-branded AFi-II 10).
It adds up to yet another reminder for me that there is no perfect camera system out there--the one that does it all, perfectly (at least for me). But the one I have is working very well for me, and try as I might, I can't find any clearly better alternatives. All in all, it means I'm happy to be staying put.
With that said, if anyone has any crazy ideas on how I might get a Zeiss 300/2.8 TPP with the 1.7x TC to work on the Sinar Hy6 please PM me! (I understand about the mount flange distance issue with Hasselblad V and Rollei 6x6, as well as the fact that there's no central shutter in the 300/2.8/focal plane shutter in the Hy6, but that's what I mean when I say 'crazy' ideas... Creative thinking welcome!!)
Thanks to the community for the incredible support as I worked my way through this. It was wonderful to write and talk with so many folks from around the world.
Best regards,
Brad
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With the Sinar eMotion 75, I find the extra step of converting .IA/.BR/.WR files to .DNG to be time-consuming.
Not sure I understand the problem. Are you using the older Captureshop or Exposure? With Exposure there is no extra step.
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Not sure I understand the problem. Are you using the older Captureshop or Exposure? With Exposure there is no extra step.
I use Lightroom and/or Photoshop. Exposure is the extra step.
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Interesting you mention the Mamiya 28mm and there is nothing to compare it against in a normal retro focus lens except the Hassy 28mm and Rollie does not make anything close to that focal length. I have the 28mm and my copy is quite good except for some very far corner area's it produces great files even when I tested the P65 Plus last week. There is a trick for it right now until C1 gives us the corner sharpness tool for it and what you do is copy the 35mm lens corner sharpness and make a preset for it . Than when you have shots with a 28mm you apply that preset, works very well actually. Again this is also a case when using the wrong software for the files . Lightroom and ACR completely suck for Phase files and c1 has corrections in the software for the 28mm for distortion, vignetting, CA, purple fringing. The one thing missing is corner sharpness and hoping the next version of C1 will have that but let's remember there are only 2 OEM's making a 28mm also.
To see some more 28mm images and thoughts with the P65 Plus look here http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4333 (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4333)
But let me add the next choice for a 28mm is the wonderful Rodenstock 28HR at 7 k plus you need a tech camera to use it. So if you need a 28mm than you have 3 choices and Sinar and Leaf system are not one of them. They simply do not make them.
I think staying put is fine if that fills your needs and right now not sure i would switch given the economy. BTW i would not use the P65 Plus as a comparison to any other back right now as a final test it still is a work in progress. Yes it does have better detail and better DR than the P45 and P25 but the firmware is not finished yet either it still is a pre- production back. This was as of last week which I had it for three days. Great back no question but i want to see final production unit also.
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I use Lightroom and/or Photoshop. Exposure is the extra step.
Ok, now I understand your point. You mean the stage of importing files from the CF card. If you shoot tethered with Exposure then the files are saved as DNG on the fly, so there's no extra step. The new eSprit 65 back saves files as DNG in the back itself and I hope future models will follow this lead.
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Guy,
It's just a personal statement about how satisfied I am with what it produces. Compared to the uncorrected Hasselblad 28, I'm quite willing to believe it is superior (by all accounts it is, but I've not tested the Hassy 28 personally).
And it's true that Rollei has nothing close to 28.
My point wasn't that Rollei's (non-existent) 28 was better than Mamiya's 28. Nor was it that Mamiya's 28 is a great lens because it is generally regarded as better than the Hassy 28. It was that the 28 was not a lens I'd switch systems for. I was not satisfied with what it delivered on the P65+ nor was I satisfied with it on the less-but-still-very-demanding P45+. The widest lens that I really liked on the Mamiya was the 45/2.8.
There is one additional choice to the three you outline above--and that's to not use one.
As another example, I was disappointed in the Rollei 50/2.8 AFD's performance as well (too many abberations toward the edge of the frame, even stopped down); So I still carry a Super-Angulon 40/3.5 and a Curtagon 60/3.5 into the mountains when I go. Unfortunately this means more weight, slower speed, no AF--all disadvantages, but like the Mamiya 28, the Rollei 50 didn't do it for me. Does this make the Mamiya 28 or the Rollei 50 "bad"?? I don't really even know what that question means; and if I did I'd suspect the answer would be subjective anyway.
I agree with you 100% on the non-retrofocus lenses. They're a great option but represent a big leap in that a view or technical camera is needed to go with them. For my work stitching is often a viable alternative. It has the added benefit of yielding even higher resolution images.
And lastly, I have a friend who has been experimenting with defishing--I'll let him speak for himself, but the preliminary results he has shared with me have been pretty amazing--I'd never have expected the kind of quality I'm seeing in the results he's getting.
Not trying to rain on anybody's parade, just sharing my honest (and obviously subjective) experiences. I hope folks won't read too much into my willingness to call out the products I don't like any more than they will my calling out products I do like. My postings are shared as food for thought.
Also agreed that the P65+'s image quality is a step up in detail from the P45+. But I do prefer the look of the P45+ in areas of smooth tonality, like sky and in deep shadows. Given how consistent this look is across all the Dalsa offerings, I expect to see similar characteristics in the release version of the P65+.
To me, this does not take away from the P65+ as a good product; tradeoffs always have to be made, and I do think Phase has made the right ones here. To me, it simply says that the P65+ and the AFi II-10 are less differentiated on image quality than their predecessors were.
Both are killer products. As their image quality improves and becomes less of a differentiator, decision factors simply come down to other benefits (speed, usability, price, availability, service, reliability, and so on.)
-Brad
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Ok, now I understand your point. You mean the stage of importing files from the CF card. If you shoot tethered with Exposure hen the files are saved as DNG on the fly, so there's no extra step. The new eSprit 65 back saves files as DNG in the back itself and I hope future models will follow this lead.
Yes, that is exactly the problem--I seem to be too lazy to haul a computer system with me out into the wilderness and fire it up whenever I want to shoot.
And yes, I do hope future models follow this lead--I can say with certainty that my next back won't have this issue!
Take care,
-Brad
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Even though it might be horribly slow, I'm wondering about the Rollei Apo-Tele Tessar 500/8. Does anyone have any experience with one? At this point, I'm mostly looking for people's experience, but if you've seen one of these in the wild that might be available for sale, please let me know.
Thanks, all,
Brad
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Guy,
It's just a personal statement about how satisfied I am with what it produces. Compared to the uncorrected Hasselblad 28, I'm quite willing to believe it is superior (by all accounts it is, but I've not tested the Hassy 28 personally).
And it's true that Rollei has nothing close to 28.
My point wasn't that Rollei's (non-existent) 28 was better than Mamiya's 28. Nor was it that Mamiya's 28 is a great lens because it is generally regarded as better than the Hassy 28. It was that the 28 was not a lens I'd switch systems for. I was not satisfied with what it delivered on the P65+ nor was I satisfied with it on the less-but-still-very-demanding P45+. The widest lens that I really liked on the Mamiya was the 45/2.8.
There is one additional choice to the three you outline above--and that's to not use one.
As another example, I was disappointed in the Rollei 50/2.8 AFD's performance as well (too many abberations toward the edge of the frame, even stopped down); So I still carry a Super-Angulon 40/3.5 and a Curtagon 60/3.5 into the mountains when I go. Unfortunately this means more weight, slower speed, no AF--all disadvantages, but like the Mamiya 28, the Rollei 50 didn't do it for me. Does this make the Mamiya 28 or the Rollei 50 "bad"?? I don't really even know what that question means; and if I did I'd suspect the answer would be subjective anyway.
I agree with you 100% on the non-retrofocus lenses. They're a great option but represent a big leap in that a view or technical camera is needed to go with them. For my work stitching is often a viable alternative. It has the added benefit of yielding even higher resolution images.
And lastly, I have a friend who has been experimenting with defishing--I'll let him speak for himself, but the preliminary results he has shared with me have been pretty amazing--I'd never have expected the kind of quality I'm seeing in the results he's getting.
Not trying to rain on anybody's parade, just sharing my honest (and obviously subjective) experiences. I hope folks won't read too much into my willingness to call out the products I don't like any more than they will my calling out products I do like. My postings are shared as food for thought.
Also agreed that the P65+'s image quality is a step up in detail from the P45+. But I do prefer the look of the P45+ in areas of smooth tonality, like sky and in deep shadows. Given how consistent this look is across all the Dalsa offerings, I expect to see similar characteristics in the release version of the P65+.
To me, this does not take away from the P65+ as a good product; tradeoffs always have to be made, and I do think Phase has made the right ones here. To me, it simply says that the P65+ and the AFi II-10 are less differentiated on image quality than their predecessors were.
Both are killer products. As their image quality improves and becomes less of a differentiator, decision factors simply come down to other benefits (speed, usability, price, availability, service, reliability, and so on.)
-Brad
Good points Brad and agree on many of them. Problem is as anything else you need a 28mm or something like that wide than you start scrambling around trying to find a answer and that answer starts at around 4200 up and stitching is a nice option but also limited too. It's tough out here sometimes tiring to find the best solutions and than add the economy to this you wonder who's doors may fold next week , next month or whatever and selling anything right now is not that easy on top of all that. BTW not much can rain on my parade i understand all of this with folks decisions to do different things and such. There a lot of products even in MF that i would not buy and do not like at all. Horses for courses
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But let me add the next choice for a 28mm is the wonderful Rodenstock 28HR at 7 k plus you need a tech camera to use it. So if you need a 28mm than you have 3 choices and Sinar and Leaf system are not one of them. They simply do not make them.
Just a technical correction.... Sinar does offer the Rodenstock 28HR lens on their focal plane shutter camera, the Sinar m. Sinar added a custom helicoid focus mount for it, and it also integrates well with their Live View system. The Sinar m camera is the only camera that can convert from SLR to rangefinder, so that these excellent wides can be used.
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Hey Brad,
Thanks for posting your updates on this. I too hope that the in camera DNG will be useful and a big time saver. Certainly the samples I have seen look good too.
Just a bit of info on the lenses - the AF 50mm f/2.8 lens weighs in at around 1500 grams without the ridiculously large and heavy hood (the hood is probably another 500grams or at least it feels like it) and the 40mm f/3.5 and 60mm f/3.5 curtagon together are actually only 1520grams together - and their hoods are very light in comparison. So just kidding around here but the truth is you'd save weight by carrying both the 40 and 60 instead of the 50. Probably bulk too because that 50mm hood is just crazy!
Guy, I might be wrong but I think I've seen it posted here that one can't compare lens lengths straight across with the 645 format and a 6x6. While its true that Rollei has no 28mm, the 35mm coming out soon should cover the same FOV. The Rollei 35mm lens will have been designed with the use of film in mind in addition to MFDB's so its likely to have less native distortion and other aberrations than lenses designed for use in conjunction with DAC's.
And as Brad mentioned in the mean time one can use the 30mm fisheye and correct the images. I'm experimenting with this now using the Lens Fix plugin - I'm not sure I have the final set of parameters but its looking pretty good now. Here's the sample shot of my dinning room that I sent Brad - one of my first shots with the fisheye as a test. Still a bit wiggly on the outsider perimeter but I'm experimenting with the secondary corrections now and think I'll get it better.
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Hey Eric,
Interesting points on the lenses... I hadn't weighed them. Then my only issue would be the bulk of two lenses as opposed to the weight, since they seem to equal out. The 50 didn't seem that huge to me, but I didn't weigh it or check those specs.
Good point about the hoods--it's actually one of my few sore points with the Rollei lens lineup--the hoods are way-overpriced, too heavy, generic (ie. multiple-focal-length) and non-reversible!! They seem like a bit of an afterthought to me.
Even though I'm a huge hood fan in general, I'm sad to say I don't use mine at all with the Rollei lenses. I have no space to carry them if they can't reverse over the lens. And they should be as aggressive as possible--I have to believe that the same hood used for the 110 and the 180 could be more effective on the 180 if it were built specifically for the 180.
If they were built out of plastic or carbon-fiber then they'd be lightweight too...
Anyway, not to hijack my own thread--good points about the total weight including hoods.
Take care,
-Brad
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Why so?
There are actually 2 Sinar choices, one when a MF and one when a view camera is needed:
The wonderful Rodenstock 28mm HR is available for the MF Sinar m camera, which cannot only use the Zeiss/Sinaron Digital AF Distagon 4.0/40, the Zeiss/Sinaron Digital AF Planar 2.8/80, the Zeiss/Sinaron Digital AF Macro-Planar 4/120 and the Zeiss/Sinaron Digital AF Sonnar 4.0/180, BUT as well all the Hasselblad V system lenses.
As well, this 28mm Rodenstock HR is avalaible for the Sinar arTec.
In addition to that, the new Rodenstock 23mm HR is going to ship in December, giving another short lens alternative.
So if you need a 28mm than you have 3 choices and Sinar (and Leaf) system are not one of them. They simply do not make them.
No, you don't: see above.
Best regards,
Thierry
But let me add the next choice for a 28mm is the wonderful Rodenstock 28HR at 7 k plus you need a tech camera to use it.
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hi Eric,
would you mind to share a little more details on this and how it works?
Thanks,
Thierry
And as Brad mentioned in the mean time one can use the 30mm fisheye and correct the images. I'm experimenting with this now using the Lens Fix plugin ....
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hi Eric,
would you mind to share a little more details on this and how it works?
Thanks,
Thierry
Hi Thierry,
Sure, I'd be happy to explain how I am doing it but I'm relatively new to this and there are probably tons of ways to do it. I'm using a photoshop plug-in that is essentially a GUI front end for Helmut Dersch's Pano Tools. I bought this from http://www.kekus.com/ (http://www.kekus.com/) The plug-in I have is the PTMac which has several different functions but the Lens Fix is the one I'm using for this - I do not know if the LensFix CI stand alone product works the same or not. A library of corrections exists for a number of lens and camera combinations but nothing for my combination which is the Rollei 6008/P20. The plugin has a lot of features including the ability to handle each color channel separately to treat any aberrations that might occur but I haven't really seen any so far with the 30mm lens, but I am mostly looking at just getting the lines straight for now. There are three variables to manipulate but the primary one ( does the majority of the work and its pretty easy to just move the slider and get close, then there are 2 other values to adjust (A and C) that effect the corners and edges more than the center and can be used to fine tune. The values that I am using currently are A) .048, -.185, C) -.047 and I let the program calculate D for me. I'm pretty sure that the A and C values need more tweaking because there's a bit of wiggle left in the corners but I want to shoot a grid or something to make this calibration work easier. The documentation on the Kekus site is pretty minimal - if someone knows a really efficient way to calibrate these values I'd love to hear it.
Anyhow I am just converting my RAW file as normal then bringing it into photoshop as a 16bit Tiff and then running the plugin. The plugin takes about 3 seconds on my Mac G5 quad and it would seem that this could be made into an action or even a droplet without any trouble.
I have also tried the program that EPd recommended (Fisheye Hemi from Image Trends) in an other thread on Wide options for the Hy6 here somewhere and it seemed to work well without any effort but did not give me straight lines everywhere, but I have not found out how to adjust the parameters yet so perhaps it would be just as good or better than the Lens Fix? Auto Pano seems to have some fisheye corrections too but I haven't tried this yet.
Hope this helps,
Eric
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Hey Brad,
Thanks for posting your updates on this. I too hope that the in camera DNG will be useful and a big time saver. Certainly the samples I have seen look good too.
Just a bit of info on the lenses - the AF 50mm f/2.8 lens weighs in at around 1500 grams without the ridiculously large and heavy hood (the hood is probably another 500grams or at least it feels like it) and the 40mm f/3.5 and 60mm f/3.5 curtagon together are actually only 1520grams together - and their hoods are very light in comparison. So just kidding around here but the truth is you'd save weight by carrying both the 40 and 60 instead of the 50. Probably bulk too because that 50mm hood is just crazy!
Guy, I might be wrong but I think I've seen it posted here that one can't compare lens lengths straight across with the 645 format and a 6x6. While its true that Rollei has no 28mm, the 35mm coming out soon should cover the same FOV. The Rollei 35mm lens will have been designed with the use of film in mind in addition to MFDB's so its likely to have less native distortion and other aberrations than lenses designed for use in conjunction with DAC's.
And as Brad mentioned in the mean time one can use the 30mm fisheye and correct the images. I'm experimenting with this now using the Lens Fix plugin - I'm not sure I have the final set of parameters but its looking pretty good now. Here's the sample shot of my dinning room that I sent Brad - one of my first shots with the fisheye as a test. Still a bit wiggly on the outsider perimeter but I'm experimenting with the secondary corrections now and think I'll get it better.
how large you can print this defished images eric?
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Thanks Eric,
This is plenty enough details and it helps certainly. Seems pretty forward and easy. It would be great to see your "grid" sample when you are done with it.
Thanks a lot,
Thierry
Hi Thierry,
Sure, I'd be happy to explain how I am doing
Hope this helps,
Eric
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Hey Eric,
Interesting points on the lenses... I hadn't weighed them. Then my only issue would be the bulk of two lenses as opposed to the weight, since they seem to equal out. The 50 didn't seem that huge to me, but I didn't weigh it or check those specs.
Good point about the hoods--it's actually one of my few sore points with the Rollei lens lineup--the hoods are way-overpriced, too heavy, generic (ie. multiple-focal-length) and non-reversible!! They seem like a bit of an afterthought to me.
Even though I'm a huge hood fan in general, I'm sad to say I don't use mine at all with the Rollei lenses. I have no space to carry them if they can't reverse over the lens. And they should be as aggressive as possible--I have to believe that the same hood used for the 110 and the 180 could be more effective on the 180 if it were built specifically for the 180.
If they were built out of plastic or carbon-fiber then they'd be lightweight too...
Anyway, not to hijack my own thread--good points about the total weight including hoods.
Take care,
-Brad
Brad,
That's interesting about the hoods - and while I agree some of the Rollei hoods like the 110/2 or 55mm PCS hood are cumbersome, there are lots of other options. Actually I'm a fan of the way Leica does their built in retractable hoods. I use a Heliopan collapsable rubber hood for my 95mm lenses and this folds up nicely when not in use. Sometimes I just take one hood and use it for 60, 80 and 150tx, but I have the Rollei Bay Vi matte box which also is light and folds up and that fits most of the others that I'm likely to carry when traveling such as the 60, 80, 120, 150's I've also seen modified hasselblad matte boxes to accept all of the Rollei lenses - the user just changed out a piece in the front to mate with the bay 104 or bay VI mounts, and a special on for the 40mm SA. I'm certain I've seen those parts made at SK grimes so they may have the CAD files already. I think the matte boxes are excellent because then you can carry just one set of filters and use them for all lenses plus the square filters are cheaper and easy to adjust. Even if you change lenses you can keep the same filter stack and just transfer the matte box from one lens to the other. When I don't bring my hood at all I usually regret it, but have done okay just using my hand or flag, but then that's hard to do without a tripod which I loathe or hanging off the side of a rock face like you might be doing.
Eric
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how large you can print this defished images eric?
Hi Rainer,
I just got the fisheye last week and haven't printed anything with it yet, but can let you know when I do get around to it. The Lens Fix corrections seem to not take away too much from the fine detail, so I would expect to be able to print nearly the same size as with a normal lens, but again I haven't played with it enough to know for sure. My primary concern at the moment is getting the last part of the corners straight. Do you have any experience with this software or calibration?
Eric
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Hi Rainer,
I just got the fisheye last week and haven't printed anything with it yet, but can let you know when I do get around to it. The Lens Fix corrections seem to not take away too much from the fine detail, so I would expect to be able to print nearly the same size as with a normal lens, but again I haven't played with it enough to know for sure. My primary concern at the moment is getting the last part of the corners straight. Do you have any experience with this software or calibration?
Eric
no i have nothing i still remember,- i playd around with a nikon 16mm fish some years ago and was amazed too how good defishing can work.
whats interesting is that the proportions of objects closed to the image edges are better conserved than with " normal " wideangles, or at least they look better because they dont stretch . maybe you culd post a corner 100% crop before and after defishing,would like to see it .
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Why so?
There are actually 2 Sinar choices, one when a MF and one when a view camera is needed:
The wonderful Rodenstock 28mm HR is available for the MF Sinar m camera, which cannot only use the Zeiss/Sinaron Digital AF Distagon 4.0/40, the Zeiss/Sinaron Digital AF Planar 2.8/80, the Zeiss/Sinaron Digital AF Macro-Planar 4/120 and the Zeiss/Sinaron Digital AF Sonnar 4.0/180, BUT as well all the Hasselblad V system lenses.
As well, this 28mm Rodenstock HR is avalaible for the Sinar arTec.
In addition to that, the new Rodenstock 23mm HR is going to ship in December, giving another short lens alternative.
Best regards,
Thierry
But you have to buy a Sinar M and/or a tech camera and that was my point. More expense in another system that you may not shoot your everyday camera with and certainly not on a HY6. We can buy a 28mm Rodenstock for any of the tech camera's but again it is beyond your primary system and those numbers are not in the low thousands everything starts with a Hassy lens at 4200 I believe than sky rockets up. Let's face facts a Sinar artec and a 28mm Rodenstock is well over 15k together. Hassy and Mamiya folks can shoot with there primary systems for many different subjects. Obviously if this is all you do is shoot wide's than the tech camera's maybe the better choice and for many shooters they simply do many things but the big thing that constantly gets overlooked in all these conversations is MONEY. Sorry it is not a endless pit and anytime we say tech camera's or something beyond the primary system that we are in the 10 k range to add these tech camera's . Even the cheapest system and let's say Cambo 2700 for the body , 900 for the mount plate, 500 for the finder and 7k for the 28 Rodenstock we are starting this quest at 11,100 just to shoot a 28mm focal length. Yes it maybe the best thing since sliced bread but on top of your already expensive system than this get's hard to justify. Getting a Mamiya 28 or Hassy 28mm is a cheaper way to go and that is fact, it maybe a compromise to some degree but if you need a 28mm than you need a 28mm. I wish when people say this or that system they include the price because talk is dirt cheap until we reach for the check book.
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But you have to buy a Sinar M
You "forgot" to mention the Sinar m solution, that's why I mention it.
More expense in another system that you may not shoot your everyday camera with and certainly not on a HY6.
See Eric's tests with the 30mm Rollei fisheye: certainly not so far away from the 28mm, and ON a Sinar Hy6.
Hassy and Mamiya folks can shoot with there primary systems for many different subjects.
So can Sinar Hy6 system users, for many different subjects.
... but the big thing that constantly gets overlooked in all these conversations is MONEY.
I don't think that this "thing" is overlooked when buying or wishing to buy: customers/photographers are well aware what it costs and that money is part of the equation. The question is rather if one needs and/or is willing to buy it.
but on top of your already expensive system than this get's hard to justify.
The Sinar Hy6 system prices are in accordance with the prices of other makers. Don't draw any conclusions for others about how hard it is to justify.
I wish when people say this or that system they include the price because talk is dirt cheap until we reach for the check book.
And I would wish you not claiming things which are not true. You were speaking about technical alternatives/solutions, and claiming that Sinar (Leaf) "are not one of them" (choices): I wish this to stand corrected, for the record, because it is not true, and it has nothing to do with your wish to have it priced.
Best regards,
Thierry
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The wonderful Rodenstock 28mm HR is available for the MF Sinar m camera, which cannot only use the Zeiss/Sinaron Digital AF Distagon 4.0/40, the Zeiss/Sinaron Digital AF Planar 2.8/80, the Zeiss/Sinaron Digital AF Macro-Planar 4/120 and the Zeiss/Sinaron Digital AF Sonnar 4.0/180, BUT as well all the Hasselblad V system lenses.
As well, this 28mm Rodenstock HR is avalaible for the Sinar arTec.
Mr. Hagenauer,
If this is in fact the lens that you're referring to, this clearly is a lens for Large Format use:
http://www.dtgweb.com/shop/product.php?pro...1475&page=1 (http://www.dtgweb.com/shop/product.php?productid=28492&cat=1475&page=1)
Obviously, you're trying to contribute to a general sharing and learning amongst fellow professionals here, but posting references to a Large Format product is clearly against the Medium Format forum rules. You have been reported to the Forum Moderators. Please find a more appropriate venue for these discussions. They clearly do not belong here.
This also applies to Mr. Viertlböck and his continuing discussions of the Sinar AirHead camera as well. If it looks like a Large Format, and it walks like Large Format, it must be Large Format. Please go elsewhere with discussions not related to Medium Format products.
Thank you for your cooperation. And I'm sure the other fellow professionals here appreciate it as well. You're obviously aware of the clear distinctions between various formats in this new digital reality that we live in.
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I thought it was Medium Format BACKS and Photography..... For this reason I think it is entirely appropriate to discuss any lens that can be used with a medium format back here.
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You "forgot" to mention the Sinar m solution, that's why I mention it.
See Eric's tests with the 30mm Rollei fisheye: certainly not so far away from the 28mm, and ON a Sinar Hy6.
So can Sinar Hy6 system users, for many different subjects.
I don't think that this "thing" is overlooked when buying or wishing to buy: customers/photographers are well aware what it costs and that money is part of the equation. The question is rather if one needs and/or is willing to buy it.
The Sinar Hy6 system prices are in accordance with the prices of other makers. Don't draw any conclusions for others about how hard it is to justify. Thierry again you COMPLETELY misunderstand ( Justify ) to the end user that has to make a purchase not your prices
And I would wish you not claiming things which are not true. You were speaking about technical alternatives/solutions, and claiming that Sinar (Leaf) "are not one of them" (choices): I wish this to stand corrected, for the record, because it is not true, and it has nothing to do with your wish to have it priced.
I can say whatever I want whenever I want and i am not claiming anything but hard cold fact. The Sinar HY6 does not have a 28mm FACT a 30mm fisheye be it defished or not is not the same thing, where on the planet is this the same.
PLEASE do not respond to me until you actually understand what people are actually saying. Because it is Guy against the Sinar world in your view when in fact it is not even remotely the case . You take words and make them fit your purpose when everyone else completely understand EXACTLY what my meanings are. My comments have nothing to do with Sinar which i could care less about your Sinar system and my point being which you still have overlooked is you don't have a PRIMARY 28mm lens for the HY6 and as a Sinar owner you HAVE to look at either a Sinar M and /or a Tech camera. THAT IS FACT . To sit here and say anything else is wrong.
Best regards,
Thierry
Why so defensive who is talking about Sinar in the first place . Learn how to read because i am speaking in general terms (your) as in the system folks own and that is any system than adding another system just to shoot 28mm
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Post Deleted. Reason: I was not getting the joke!
My apologies, "gwithf".
best regards,
Thierry
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[quote name='thsinar' date='Dec 8 2008, 03:17 AM' post='242624']
You "forgot" to mention the Sinar m solution, that's why I mention it.
IT is a additional system to your primary which I said all along
See Eric's tests with the 30mm Rollei fisheye: certainly not so far away from the 28mm, and ON a Sinar Hy6.
NOT the same thing without extra work to defish it. Not really a solution
So can Sinar Hy6 system users, for many different subjects. BUT it does NOT have a 28mm FACT
I don't think that this "thing" is overlooked when buying or wishing to buy: customers/photographers are well aware what it costs and that money is part of the equation. The question is rather if one needs and/or is willing to buy it.
Than why keep shoving it down our throats on SINAR products that are out there . This is typical used car salesman tactics and NEVER do you make a comment on what it may cost to help us photographers make smart buying decisions
The Sinar Hy6 system prices are in accordance with the prices of other makers. Don't draw any conclusions for others about how hard it is to justify.
WHO are you to tell me not to draw conclusions, who died and made you king for the day and completely misunderstood what I said and made it something else
Thierry again you COMPLETELY misunderstand ( Justify ) to the end user that has to make a purchase not your prices. IN YOUR MIND and to justify it was directed at the end user to make a purchase on ANYTHING that he buys . NOT AT SINAR again your defensive response
And I would wish you not claiming things which are not true. You were speaking about technical alternatives/solutions, and claiming that Sinar (Leaf) "are not one of them" (choices): I wish this to stand corrected, for the record, because it is not true, and it has nothing to do with your wish to have it priced. IS THERE OR IS THERE NOT A 28mm LENS FOR A HY6 and that is ALL that I was saying
Why so defensive who is talking about Sinar in the first place . Learn how to read because i am speaking in general terms (your) as in the system folks own and that is any system than adding another system just to shoot 28mm
I can say whatever I want whenever I want and i am not claiming anything but hard cold fact. The Sinar HY6 does not have a 28mm FACT a 30mm fisheye be it defished or not is not the same thing, where on the planet is this the same.
PLEASE do not respond to me until you actually understand what people are actually saying. Because it is Guy against the Sinar world in your view when in fact it is not even remotely the case . You take words and make them fit your purpose when everyone else completely understand EXACTLY what my meanings are. My comments have nothing to do with Sinar which i could care less about your Sinar system and my point being which you still have overlooked is you don't have a PRIMARY 28mm lens for the HY6 and as a Sinar owner you HAVE to look at either a Sinar M and /or a Tech camera. THAT IS FACT . To sit here and say anything else is wrong. And who is claiming anything else but that fact
Once again I am tired of your responses and they are completely without merit and completely on the defense because bottom line you do NOT understand what people are ACTUALLY saying. I said NOTHING against your product but you sure find ways to defend it no matter what the cost. And whatever you can say to make the responder look bad than you will do that repeatedly.
I am sure you will fire back with some witty response that i could give a shit about . Don't bother I really think it is pointless and could care less in reality. Go be the Sinar fan boy not interested and no one else is either. You once again completely overlooked the point being made and you alway do that. Honestly I do not need this stuff in my life ever and this forum is not a place i need to be but if i can't make a comment or give input on something without this bullshit constantly than I have no interest whatsoever.
Good Night and Good luck in your future
Guy
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I am not sure what the real argument is regarding "primary system", but the Sinar m is currently my primary system. And, with the availability of the new HR 23mm lens for it, I still do not have to resort to a secondary system; whereas with the Mamiya (or Hasselblad), I guess one would need to really think about a second system in order to go wider than 28mm.
For me, this was one of the reason I chose the Sinar m system in the first place. It can use the best rangefinder lenses from Rodenstock, as well as any of the Hasselblad Zeiss lenses, as well as be used as a shutter for the Sinar view cameras. This versatility makes it a very cost effective system, at least to me. Of course, different people will have different needs, preferences, and budgets.
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I'm glad to see you post and think in light of the previous forum policing done by others in other threads your post here is hilarious and glad that we could share a laugh on this topic!
Mr. Hagenauer,
If this is in fact the lens that you're referring to, this clearly is a lens for Large Format use:
http://www.dtgweb.com/shop/product.php?pro...1475&page=1 (http://www.dtgweb.com/shop/product.php?productid=28492&cat=1475&page=1)
Obviously, you're trying to contribute to a general sharing and learning amongst fellow professionals here, but posting references to a Large Format product is clearly against the Medium Format forum rules. You have been reported to the Forum Moderators. Please find a more appropriate venue for these discussions. They clearly do not belong here.
This also applies to Mr. Viertlböck and his continuing discussions of the Sinar AirHead camera as well. If it looks like a Large Format, and it walks like Large Format, it must be Large Format. Please go elsewhere with discussions not related to Medium Format products.
Thank you for your cooperation. And I'm sure the other fellow professionals here appreciate it as well. You're obviously aware of the clear distinctions between various formats in this new digital reality that we live in.
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I guess that my broken and awful English speaking/reading is still letting me enough space to understand what is said, written or meant: no need for me to learn to read.
I would rather wish you NOT speaking in "general terms (mine)": I can easily handle the information on the Sinar side and don't need any help from you. I had said this to you in the past and in another place, and I wish it could be understood.
Thanks,
Thierry
Why so defensive who is talking about Sinar in the first place . Learn how to read because i am speaking in general terms (your) as in the system folks own and that is any system than adding another system just to shoot 28mm
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Mr. Mancuso,
You seem a little "weird" to me: does it happen that you have any problems in your daily life or with Sinar in particular? I could not otherwise explain myself your over-heated and aggressive way to answer my simple corrections to your views and facts. One only has to re-read my post 13 to see that there are only a correction to your "omission". I don't see how this could be understood as "on the defensive" or making you "tired". Actually, member "David Klepacki" has mentioned the very same to you.
for "Guy Mancuso": a "Manual" on how to deal with "thsinar":
1. Checking my facts before making statements and claims about Sinar and its products, or then leave it to "thsinar"
2. Accepting that "thsinar" may jump in and answer and/or correct my claims about Sinar
3. Taking a deep breath and not getting heated up while answering, re-controlling my claims with facts, and then only write
4. If point. 3. cannot be taken under control, then trying not to answer in an aggressive way, everybody can be wrong or make mistakes, keeping smiling
5. "thsinar" would rather not be wished "good luck for the future" or "good night", if it is not meant
6. "thsinar" does not "fire back" but answers claims and corrects misleading information when he judges it necessary, if I want it or not.
7. "thsinar" is not the Sinar fan boy
I will leave it for now, but not without mentioning one of your contradictions:
- the 30mm fisheye does effectively need one extra work, you are right. What about your "little trick" with the 28 mm?, isn't that counted as an extra step?
Thierry
I can say whatever I want whenever I want and i am not claiming anything but hard cold fact. The Sinar HY6 does not have a 28mm FACT a 30mm fisheye be it defished or not is not the same thing, where on the planet is this the same.
PLEASE do not respond to me until you actually understand what people are actually saying. Because it is Guy against the Sinar world in your view when in fact it is not even remotely the case . You take words and make them fit your purpose when everyone else completely understand EXACTLY what my meanings are. My comments have nothing to do with Sinar which i could care less about your Sinar system and my point being which you still have overlooked is you don't have a PRIMARY 28mm lens for the HY6 and as a Sinar owner you HAVE to look at either a Sinar M and /or a Tech camera. THAT IS FACT . To sit here and say anything else is wrong. And who is claiming anything else but that fact
[/b]
Once again I am tired of your responses and they are completely without merit and completely on the defense because bottom line you do NOT understand what people are ACTUALLY saying. I said NOTHING against your product but you sure find ways to defend it no matter what the cost. And whatever you can say to make the responder look bad than you will do that repeatedly.
I am sure you will fire back with some witty response that i could give a shit about . Don't bother I really think it is pointless and could care less in reality. Go be the Sinar fan boy not interested and no one else is either. You once again completely overlooked the point being made and you alway do that. Honestly I do not need this stuff in my life ever and this forum is not a place i need to be but if i can't make a comment or give input on something without this bullshit constantly than I have no interest whatsoever.
Good Night and Good luck in your future
Guy
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I thought it was Medium Format BACKS and Photography..... For this reason I think it is entirely appropriate to discuss any lens that can be used with a medium format back here.
Now, let's be careful here. Are we talking cameras, lenses or sensor size. I think we need a clarification from the hall monitor.
Let's think about this. in the 645 format there are two 1.14 sensors that the manufacturers claimed were full frame, then of course there is the 1.12 sensor that isn't full frame, the 1.26 cropped sensor that is definatley not full frame 645 and don't leave out the legacy 1.3 cropped square sensors or "forgive me", the 24mmx36mm sensor that were put into black boxes and stuck on the back of medium format cameras which at the time were called "medium format". Oh sorry I forgot the real full frame camera that is .98% full frame 645 that is not for sale yet.
Now if were talking lenses, some people use pentax, hasselblad, Contax ah yes even Rollei medium format lenses on "once again forgive me" 24x36mm cameras, so we'll need another ruling on this.
Personally, I think this forum would be much easier to understand if it was broken down in this manner.
amateurs that shoot cheap cameras. (brand worship discouraged but allowed)
amateurs that shoot expensive cameras. (brand worship discouraged but allowed)
photographers that love photography more than cameras. (brand worship not allowed)
professionals that shoot all kinds of cameras. (brand worship not allowed)
anybody that wants to sell you anything. (locked forum).
professionals and semi-professionals that have (or are looking to have) relationships with a camera maker for fun or profit. (brand worship mandatory).
anyone who has ever seen a Rollieflex camera with the battery charged. (brand worship mandatory).
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A few weeks ago I put out a feeler to see if there would be interest in swapping my Hy6 body + e75LV back for a Phase AFD III and P45+. I had a number of creative and compelling alternative swap/trade offers.
My thinking behind the move, as I told the folks who had contacted me was just a business decision. My goal was to get access to some long, fast tele glass (and higher shutter speeds) to be able to do more medium-format wildlife work. Yes, I'm well aware that MF is not the "ideal" platform for wildlife work, but I believe it would work well for me, and would help me to deliver unique and compelling results.
But in the end, after spending some time test driving a Phase AFD III body, I found that I did prefer the ergonomics of the Hy6. I definitely preferred the feel of the Rollei glass to the feel of the Mamiya glass. But in all fairness, the Mamiya 80/2.8 D is a killer optic--and that's worth something. I was unimpressed by the 28mm and left somewhere in between (more to the favorable side) with all the other lenses.
I have also found that the P45+ (I used to own one) has superior low-ISO performance in terms of noise. Again, this is fully subjective. But when I test drove all the Dalsa-based solutions out there -- the Leaf Aptus, the Sinar eMotion and the Phase P65+, I found that all of them had that similar low-ISO noise fingerprint. From the one test shot I've seen of the Leaf AFi II-10, it also has the same behavior. So since I intend to upgrade to 50+ megapixels sometime next year, all my potential solutions are basically on the same playing field, and there is no longer that advantage with the Phase lineup.
With the Sinar eMotion 75, I find the extra step of converting .IA/.BR/.WR files to .DNG to be time-consuming. But unless someone is asleep at the wheel, the Sinar-branded AFi-II 10 won't do this (or if it does, I'll be looking at the Leaf version). So regardless, the inconvenient time-consuming extra workflow step (which is, for me, the Sinar Hy6/e75 system's weakest point) becomes a temporary issue--it goes away once I upgrade to the AFi II-10/"eMotion 96" (if Sinar keeps to their naming convention for the re-branded AFi-II 10).
It adds up to yet another reminder for me that there is no perfect camera system out there--the one that does it all, perfectly (at least for me). But the one I have is working very well for me, and try as I might, I can't find any clearly better alternatives. All in all, it means I'm happy to be staying put.
With that said, if anyone has any crazy ideas on how I might get a Zeiss 300/2.8 TPP with the 1.7x TC to work on the Sinar Hy6 please PM me! (I understand about the mount flange distance issue with Hasselblad V and Rollei 6x6, as well as the fact that there's no central shutter in the 300/2.8/focal plane shutter in the Hy6, but that's what I mean when I say 'crazy' ideas... Creative thinking welcome!!)
Thanks to the community for the incredible support as I worked my way through this. It was wonderful to write and talk with so many folks from around the world.
Best regards,
Brad
Hi
I look at RED & they are having great success. They are coming out with a true 645 sensor. Guess what it is CMOS. I look back to the year 2000, Canon brings out the D30, a 3MP CMOS sensor, they dropped CCD, & look who is the market leader today in 35D? (Canon). If MFD wants to improve there high iso why not go to CMOS? In doing so they could reduce the price. Funny how things work out the new RED 9K camera will take the Mamiya mount, will that be a better outcome for Mamiya in the end?
Denis
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"anyone who has ever seen a Rollieflex camera with the battery charged. (brand worship mandatory)."
Haha! Guilty as charged.... and sheepishly admit I have 5 batteries for that 6008! But I don't know anything about the AFi/Hy6 or Mamiya for that matter.
Okay so defishing the 30 mm is another step so the question is will the Hy6/AFi get wider with their 35mm lens and 56mm AFi-10 sensor than the phamiya 645 with their 54mm sensor (P65+) and 28mm?
Just curiuos about this 28mm lens that's causing the controversy.
Diagonal of 6x6 format is 8.49cm
Diagonal of 6x4.5 format is 7.5cm
So a 28mm lens designed for 645 is going to be just under 32mm. And a 35mm in 6x6 format is going to be a 31mm in 645, and a 30mm 6x6 works out to be 26.5mm.
Now do the rest of the math, considering the slightly smaller sensor on the p65+ which camera is going to have the wider advantage? I think you'll find them very close - probably too close to say one is better than another without knowing the exact specs of each lens. Since its not out, no one knows for sure, however my bet is that the Rollei 35mm will have less distortion than the Mamiya 28mm and be as sharp or sharper - though it does appear that a good 28mm mamiya copy is pretty sharp. I write good here because it does seem from reading the forums that there has been some real variations in sample quality.
I guess if one still needed wider on the AFi/Hy6/6008 then there's the fisheye with a 3 second correction in photoshop. What's the mamiya fisheye like? I assume there is one available that fills the whole 645 and not a circle? Has anyone done any defishing with it?
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Mr. Hagenauer,
If this is in fact the lens that you're referring to, this clearly is a lens for Large Format use:
http://www.dtgweb.com/shop/product.php?pro...1475&page=1 (http://www.dtgweb.com/shop/product.php?productid=28492&cat=1475&page=1)
Obviously, you're trying to contribute to a general sharing and learning amongst fellow professionals here, but posting references to a Large Format product is clearly against the Medium Format forum rules. You have been reported to the Forum Moderators. Please find a more appropriate venue for these discussions. They clearly do not belong here.
This also applies to Mr. Viertlböck and his continuing discussions of the Sinar AirHead camera as well. If it looks like a Large Format, and it walks like Large Format, it must be Large Format. Please go elsewhere with discussions not related to Medium Format products.
Thank you for your cooperation. And I'm sure the other fellow professionals here appreciate it as well. You're obviously aware of the clear distinctions between various formats in this new digital reality that we live in.
my apologies to gwith and the others as well....
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Mr. Mancuso,
You seem a little "weird" to me: does it happen that you have any problems in your daily life or with Sinar in particular? I could not otherwise explain myself your over-heated and aggressive way to answer my simple corrections to your views and facts. One only has to re-read my post 13 to see that there are only a correction to your "omission". I don't see how this could be understood as "on the defensive" or making you "tired". Actually, member "David Klepacki" has mentioned the very same to you.
for "Guy Mancuso": a "Manual" on how to deal with "thsinar":
1. Checking my facts before making statements and claims about Sinar and its products, or then leave it to "thsinar"
2. Accepting that "thsinar" may jump in and answer and/or correct my claims about Sinar
3. Taking a deep breath and not getting heated up while answering, re-controlling my claims with facts, and then only write
4. If point. 3. cannot be taken under control, then trying not to answer in an aggressive way, everybody can be wrong or make mistakes, keeping smiling
5. "thsinar" would rather not be wished "good luck for the future" or "good night", if it is not meant
6. "thsinar" does not "fire back" but answers claims and corrects misleading information when he judges it necessary, if I want it or not.
7. "thsinar" is not the Sinar fan boy
I will leave it for now, but not without mentioning one of your contradictions:
- the 30mm fisheye does effectively need one extra work, you are right. What about your "little trick" with the 28 mm?, isn't that counted as an extra step?
Thierry
Please tell me when I can stop laughing. You still are avoiding all the facts that are clearly spelled out and secondly if I speak of anything Sinar it is not directed at you but you sure think it is. Again you are the worst public relations money can buy for Sinar. You do your company not one bit of good. BTW David maybe the only person that shoots the Sinar M exclusively. Once again for the Hy6 owner they have to look elsewhere to cover that area and BTW your response to me came after I was referring to someone else, so clearly you put your Sinar two cents in when no one was referring to you. Which is a common theme for you and reason many will not even think of buying a Sinar system. BTW you aggressively said this to me like barking orders and I quote
"And I would wish you not claiming things which are not true. You were speaking about technical alternatives/solutions, and claiming that Sinar (Leaf) "are not one of them" (choices): I wish this to stand corrected, for the record, because it is not true, and it has nothing to do with your wish to have it priced"
Please go find all the post that I even talk of Sinar on this forum if there is more than 2 of them in the last year than i would be surprised. So where this comment comes from you i don't know maybe you have me mixed up with someone that actually complains about Sinar , I rarely say anything about the system and if i did not sure i would be pleasant about it either but I see no reason since it is not my system and i don't care so not sure where these comments come from you.
2nd quote
and again "he Sinar Hy6 system prices are in accordance with the prices of other makers. Don't draw any conclusions for others about how hard it is to justify."
Justify is for us to make a purchase that needs to bring into our business about 5 times the amount paid for it that is directly related to our billing for the price we pay for gear . That is what justify is not about your Sinar prices
Now that is being aggressive to me and who the hell you think you are telling me what to do. Anything after these comments than you deserve anything said . Again I will say it in public you are your own worst enemy you don't need me to make you look bad you do a fine job of it on your own. You represent a company and arguing with forum members i am sure is not in your charter to Sinar. You lose customers which at one time i would have been one. But listening to you over the last year there is no way in hell i would buy your product. The constant sales pitches cleverly disguised has been quite obvious for a long time.
Anyway you are certainly not worth the 5 minutes of time put into this response and clearly have much better things to do with my life. Oh since you clearly don't want me to wish you warm regards or good luck than I will leave you nothing since i am clearly a irritant to you although I rarely speak of your product which i find your attitude quite interesting on that alone. Clearly this is personal to you.
BTW do you not think that the quote above is not a insult to me as a forum member and against the rules of this or any forum. Let's remember something very clear no one here is buying product from me or writing me a check to shoot for them. You represent SINAR and if you think are immune to giving out insults that let's remember who you work for and you are in effect hurting your own sales that you try to create here with you comments on your product. As I said in private and said in public you are doing Sinar no favors by being on these forums with insults like that. With that I see no reason to hangout here and no reason for any response. I will add that any hatchet made was buried long ago but obviously you still hang on. You have the issue , not me.
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BTW David maybe the only person that shoots the Sinar M exclusively.
Dear Mr. Mancuso,
I think that you have a very distorted view of the world. David is NOT the only person who shoots the Sinar M exclusively. The M is my main photo system and I personally know at least four other owners of the Sinar-M cameras here in Moscow and two in St. Petersburg (Russia).
The Sinar-M is a well established and ever growing system and it existed even before PhaseOne decided to re-brand a Japanese MF camera.
Redards,
Yevgeny
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OK kids. Time to call it a day.
Michael