Luminous Landscape Forum
Site & Board Matters => About This Site => Topic started by: George Barr on November 08, 2008, 03:52:05 pm
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Michael:
this discussion with Henry is superb, and to have it available free to everyone is such a treat. You and Epson are to great to have done/made available and published the full interview. Henry's absolutely right, you have done a lot for photographers and this one sure does appreciate your efforts.
Best,
George
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Agreed. I fully enjoyed that video. Thank you very much for another high quality and informative piece.
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I echo George's sentiment.....AWESOME JOB Michael....and thank you EPSON and Henry!!
This does raise an interesting question, which perhaps I'll post in the Printers section, but if I understand Henry right; if you are using high quality paper and ink; the matboard and backboard are really LESS of an issue. It would appear that based on this interview that the use of "archival" (wink wink) quality foamboard and matboard only affects that part of the overall piece of the art (just the backboard and matting) and affects the actual print itself much less. This is an important point to me. When adding up the cost of a finished, matted and bagged print; the highest cost is matting (I double mat) and backboard because of the use of "archival" quality materials. My cost could be cut in half if I no longer used "archival" quality matboard and foamboard. Hmmmm....if the backboard and mat start to turn yellow in 20 years.....buy another one! Comments.....suggestions? This is counterintuitive to what I've heard other people say in interviews, etc. (such as Bill Atkinson).
Cheers....
Todd in Chicago
Michael:
this discussion with Henry is superb, and to have it available free to everyone is such a treat. You and Epson are to great to have done/made available and published the full interview. Henry's absolutely right, you have done a lot for photographers and this one sure does appreciate your efforts.
Best,
George
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All I can say is wow! Amazing synergy between Michael and Henry. Even has a plot: will Henry manage to enumerate all five of his enemies of permanence before the progress slider reaches the right edge or will he not?
Henry: you obviously need to record your memoirs. With all those anecdotes bursting out at every seam, it would seem a genuine loss to the photographic community if they were one day to be lost. Spend an hour going back over your life, starting with the Ansel period, jotting down a prompt for every anecdote that comes to mind. Then sit down with a digital voice recorder and simply tell each story to the mike. (If it doesn't flow, you'll need to co-opt someone to act as a silent audience.) I don't know that this would be salable - the audience is probably only a few thousand photography and printing freaks like myself - but based on the interview that audience would love every minute of it. And the beauty is that anyone who listens would learn lots about printing and permanence without being aware it was happening.
Todd wrote:
if I no longer used "archival" quality matboard and foamboard
My take is that using the more common PH neutralized matte boards, such as are used in local framing shops everywhere, would at least not take the print with them as they gradually go off to la-la land.
Another point that came to mind during the interview concerns OBAs breaking down over time. I think of the natural white of a non-OBA material (which is actually a cream colour) as being the colour an OBA paper would eventually "fade" to. It may be that the only consequence of that happening to a B&W print is that the image would go from neutral to warm. But for a colour image, the yellowing is effectively a colour cast that becomes more pronounced the lighter (more pastel) the colour. A blue sky with a slight yellow cast is a greenish sky. I can print the same image using my Epson 3800 on both Premium Luster and Ilford Gold Fibre Silk, using the supplied Premium Lustre profile. While the Ilford is clearly a warmer paper than PL, the colours in both images will look fine in the shadows and pretty much so in the mid-tones, but in the highlights the image on the Ilford will have a yellow cast.
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Hi,
The interview is both informative and entertaining. The only complaint is that I really would like to have a download able version instead of a streaming one.
Really good information, splendidly presented. As usual also thanks to the person behind the camera.
BTW, the Luminous Landscape Vide Journal was really nice, are there any more issues planned?
Erik
Michael:
this discussion with Henry is superb, and to have it available free to everyone is such a treat. You and Epson are to great to have done/made available and published the full interview. Henry's absolutely right, you have done a lot for photographers and this one sure does appreciate your efforts.
Best,
George
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Hi,
The interview is both informative and entertaining. The only complaint is that I really would like to have a download able version instead of a streaming one.
Really good information, splendidly presented. As usual also thanks to the person behind the camera.
BTW, the Luminous Landscape Vide Journal was really nice, are there any more issues planned?
Erik
Agreed - wonderful interview and thoroughly informative and entertaining.
You can download the interview as a QuickTime movie if you have or purchase quick time pro.
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As has been pointed out if you have Quicktime Pro (not terribly expensive) just click on the arrow to the right of the main screen and select Save.
Michael
Ps: Yes, more Video Journals are planned, and we have a huge amount of content available. It's just that Chris has been busy for the past six months or so editing our recent tutorials. A new VJ should be next on his to-do list.
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Thanks a lot! I'll immediately get Quicktime Pro. I just didn't know what I needed it for!
Erik
As has been pointed out if you have Quicktime Pro (not terribly expensive) just click on the arrow to the right of the main screen and select Save.
Michael
Ps: Yes, more Video Journals are planned, and we have a huge amount of content available. It's just that Chris has been busy for the past six months or so editing our recent tutorials. A new VJ should be next on his to-do list.
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Or just peel the link out of the source for the page.
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Another point that came to mind during the interview concerns OBAs breaking down over time. I think of the natural white of a non-OBA material (which is actually a cream colour) as being the colour an OBA paper would eventually "fade" to. It may be that the only consequence of that happening to a B&W print is that the image would go from neutral to warm. But for a colour image, the yellowing is effectively a colour cast that becomes more pronounced the lighter (more pastel) the colour. A blue sky with a slight yellow cast is a greenish sky. I can print the same image using my Epson 3800 on both Premium Luster and Ilford Gold Fibre Silk, using the supplied Premium Lustre profile. While the Ilford is clearly a warmer paper than PL, the colours in both images will look fine in the shadows and pretty much so in the mid-tones, but in the highlights the image on the Ilford will have a yellow cast.
Well, it's not as simple (!!) as this, mainly because it depends on the conditions you judge your prints under. If the light is UV deficient (like tungsten is) then OBAs make little or no difference. This is pointed out in the interview. Displaying the prints under glass (even ordinary glass) will filter out some of the UV component also neutralizing the OBAs. Judging a print printed on OBA rich paper under daylight when this is destined to be displayed under glass lit by tungsten will result in gross differences in the perception of colours (but this applies to a great extent to non OBA papers and you know that already I guess )
I use both Solux D50ish tungsten and calibrated D50 fluorescent (gti) to judge both paper and print colour. OBAs will show up differently under the fluorescent tubes than the tungsten bulbs. I have decided not to pay too much attention to the presence or absence of OBAs, I just shy away from the overly cold looking papers and go for the more 'neutral' stuff.
Michael and Epson,
Many thanks for the interview.
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Michael:
this discussion with Henry is superb, and to have it available free to everyone is such a treat. You and Epson are to great to have done/made available and published the full interview. Henry's absolutely right, you have done a lot for photographers and this one sure does appreciate your efforts.
Best,
George
Michael,
Thank you for asking so many of the questions I wanted answers to. Thanks so much for cutting to the chase as well.
One of my favorite parts of the interview was Michael's comments about buying all kinds of art paper and
trying to get decent prints out of the first Epson Stylus Photo printers before there were any coated art papers available.
I spent a fortune at Pearl Paint in New York City and I still have some of the papers I purchased way
back then.
Thom
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Yes, thank you Michael, Henry, great interview...and I loved the digressions and Michael pulling Henry back to focus like two old buddies...
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Agreed - wonderful interview and thoroughly informative and entertaining.
You can download the interview as a QuickTime movie if you have or purchase quick time pro.
for me the option to 'download as quicktime movie' is grayed out and I have quicktime pro on my computer...i tried in firefox and safari,...no dice...any suggestions?...thanks...
when i click on 'about quicktime player' it shows me the quicktime logo with a small 'pro' placed over the lefthand corner...it says version 7.5.5 (249.13) and then on the next line it says Quicktime version 7.5.5 (990.7)...that's odd...two builds in the same window?...
also, when i click on 'registration' it shows the quicktime pro logo along with my registration code...so i think it's all installed correctly...
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for me the option to 'download as quicktime movie' is grayed out and I have quicktime pro on my computer...i tried in firefox and safari,...no dice...any suggestions?...thanks...
when i click on 'about quicktime player' it shows me the quicktime logo with a small 'pro' placed over the lefthand corner...it says version 7.5.5 (249.13) and then on the next line it says Quicktime version 7.5.5 (990.7)...that's odd...two builds in the same window?...
also, when i click on 'registration' it shows the quicktime pro logo along with my registration code...so i think it's all installed correctly...
Saving the movie is only possible when it has been fully streamed to your Mac.
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Saving the movie is only possible when it has been fully streamed to your Mac.
thank you francois, that worked...appreciate the help...
M
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... I really would like to have a downloadable version instead of a streaming one....
Here is a free option: with Firefox, and the movie fully streamed, go to: Tools>Page Info> click on "Media" > find and highlight the movie > click on "Save As".
Hope this helps.
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Here is a free option: with Firefox, and the movie fully streamed, go to: Tools>Page Info> click on "Media" > find and highlight the movie > click on "Save As".
Hope this helps.
Or..... in Firefox use the "DownloadHelper" add-on. It will easily save the QuickTime movie as well as many other media types.
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Thank you, Michael. An exceptional interview!!!!!!
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Terrific interview. I'm VERY glad to hear them concur on what a phony term 'giclee' is. Allow me to offer what should be the final word on this issue. The French word 'giclee' is not used by French photographers and print professionals, and never will be. Pardon me for being indelicate, but the secondary, slang definition is sexual ejaculation. End of discussion, no?
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The interview was much appreciated - a quick tutorial on printing technology and limitations!
It should come with a cautionary warning though: after watching the interview you will finally accept that your many-ink dye printer was fun and a good entry to wide gamut, medium format printing, but it's prints have all kinds of fundamental limitations (attempting to colour calibrate for instance). Off I go to see how much 13x19 pigment printers cost, let alone figuring out which one to pick
Andy
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Excellent!
(Where did you get those chairs?)
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Yup, thanks for that Michael!
<....downloading aiff's via dial up, shaking head in disbelief. Why am I living here?>
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The French word 'giclee' is not used by French photographers and print professionals, and never will be. Pardon me for being indelicate, but the secondary, slang definition is sexual ejaculation.
I 100% agree with the first sentence, and wouldn't bet that much money on the fact that IRIS printers were known of photographers in France before they were history... People simple say "jet d'encre" for inkjet printing, period.
But it may just show that if something is way WAY coooool, you have to say it in french .
About the slang definition, it's not something evident to a francophone reader - it rather reminds me of a carburetor (the jet is called "gicleur").
But we're way off topic now - I'd also thank Luminous Landscape to make this big piece of very valuable information available!
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Regarding B&W carbon printing, I was particularly pleased that Mr. Wilhelm recognized the significance of printing monochrome (black and white) images with non-fading carbon. See audio segment 11, "Papers & Inks" at 5 min., 50 sec. into the interview segment. As something of a purist B&W printer, I've taken this to what I see as the next logical step, which is getting all the color pigments out of the image. Epson "Advanced B&W" mode on their K3 printers still contains significant amounts of color. See high resolution scan at http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800-Lightfastness.pdf (http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800-Lightfastness.pdf) I think B&W purists will appreciate the various workflows many of us now use that are 100% carbon.
Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
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Epson "Advanced B&W" mode on their K3 printers still contains significant amounts of color.
Define "significant"...if you mean ANY, yes, ABW does use a small amount of color ink (depending on whether you are using the color toning).
At neutral, I'm pretty sure the warmth of the K inks only require a tiny bit of cyan to cool them down, no magenta & yellow. So, I wouldn't call that "significant". The K inks are indeed based on carbon pigment and Henry's own tests show up to 300 years (depending on paper) for the ABW mode printing. That's long enough for me...
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Define "significant"...if you mean ANY, yes, ABW does use a small amount of color ink (depending on whether you are using the color toning).
At neutral, I'm pretty sure the warmth of the K inks only require a tiny bit of cyan to cool them down, no magenta & yellow. So, I wouldn't call that "significant". The K inks are indeed based on carbon pigment and Henry's own tests show up to 300 years (depending on paper) for the ABW mode printing. That's long enough for me...
Those 200+ year ratings for ABW mode are still based on the consumer-oriented light fade criteria set for color photos. As such, the allowable densitometric gray balance changes roughly translate to colorimetric shifts of about delta E=6 to 9 (note that density and colorimetry are not strictly commutable properties). Total changes in print density of typically 30% are also allowed when color shift isn't the limiting factor. Artists and museum curators, especially when working with monochromatic images having aesthetic beauty highly dependant on subtle color and tonality, should not be counting on such high display life predictions or take the comparative differences too much at face value. Fading non linearity in these systems is underrated and underreported with consumer-toleranced test criteria.
B&W printmakers do have legitimate reasons to pursue printmaking processes that maximize the carbon pigment and remove as much colored pigments as possible. I would consider "significance" as any individual ink or blend of inks that has enough weaker pigmentation in it or deploys the additional colorant non-uniformly over the full tonal scale in such a manner as to cause noticeable hue shift over time. It takes relatively low amounts of less stable colorant for this situation to occur. One aspect of inkjet printing where third party solutions may indeed be superior to the OEM inks is in the use of dedicated monochrome ink sets, but very little standardized industry testing has been done on any third party pigmented inks to support any claims up or down at this point in time.
My own sense is that the dedicated monochrome ink sets like Paul described are definitely worth pursuing for artists seeking the most permanent B&W prints. It also seems perfectly reasonable to dedicate a printer to a monochrome set-up, perhaps one's previous generation model, when it comes time to upgrade.
Best regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com (http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com)
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Define "significant"...
At neutral, I'm pretty sure the warmth of the K inks only require a tiny bit of cyan to cool them down, no magenta & yellow. ...
Even at "neutral," ABW uses all the colors. Just look at the 1600 dpi scan at page 1 of http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800-Lightfastness.pdf (http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/R1800-Lightfastness.pdf) You can easily verify this by doing your own high resolution scans. In the dark areas you can't see this very easily, so look at the light areas. The scan I posted is of a plain 5% test patch printed with a 4800 using "ABW" mode set to neutral.
The reality is that all of the OEM systems are competiting first and foremost for the huge color market. B&W is an easy add-on because even for color images they need the carbon "core" for good low gamut image content. So, they have 3 carbon positions in their inksets. The carbon most manufacturers use is very warm, so they do need to add some color for a neutral B&W. But they add much more than the minumum needed for a neutral tone. They presumeably are doing this to get more smoothness.
For the best B&W we'd ideally like all of the ink positions to be 100% carbon, and of whatever tone we are trying to achieve. As it turns out, with at least some types of carbon pigments and clear base for dilutant, we can achieve a fairly good range of tones just by selecting different papers.
So, I'm trying to push the envelope of B&W carbon digital printing by coming up with, among other things, ways to make 100% carbon inksets that achieve the tones B&W printers will want to use. Hopefully the large OEM sellers will find a neutral carbon core to be in their interest also, so that we'll have more competing sources of carbon pigments.
My experience indicates once we can buy good carbon, we can make dilution bases that work very well to make inksets of whatever densities we like. That is, if a B&W enthusiast is interested, custom, home-mixed, 100% carbon inksets are a reality, and they can lower the cost of inks to the point that cost virtually drops out of the equation. See, for example, http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Ink-Mixing.pdf (http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Ink-Mixing.pdf) I've had a 2200 runing an inkset composed of carbon diluted with nothing but water, glycerol, and Photo Flo, and it's worked very well indeed for about 8 months so far. I outline the 100% carbon inkset approaches I've tried and am using at http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/ (http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/)
Clearly most will simply use the OEM solutions, and they are getting quite good. But, as has always been the case in B&W, there will be a number of alternative approaches to the medium. 100% carbon, for its extreme stability and other advantages, is the option I and a number of others are pursuing, and it's working very well. B&W has always been a medium that could be not only very affordable, but also subject to lots of experimentation and individual, custom approaches. From what I can tell, these characteristics will continue into this digital age.
Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
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Thanks Michael for posting that very interesting interview!
Things I found interesting:
While Wilhelm suggests using non-OBA papers, the OBA papers frequently have some of the highest permanence ratings. For instance, in his ratings for the Hahnemuhle papers, Fine Art Pearl which has the most OBAs of the rated papers has the best rating.
Even though Hahnemuhle has an excellent reputation, the papers that were rated had lower ratings than Epson papers.
When the Harman papers were rated with Epson, HP and Canon ink sets, HP was best followed by Canon and Epson was least permanent.