Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: perbernal on September 24, 2008, 12:44:27 pm
-
I´ve been a owner and user of LEAF backs for the past three years now. Besides the quality of the files and rapidness of shooting compared with other brands and comparable products, the upgrade pattern of the LEAF products was a great incentive in the decision of buying the Aptus 75 at the time. To upgrade to the 75S was affordable and last summer I picked up a used 54S at a very good price and with the "promise" that LEAF would continue their upgrade pattern in the future. Curios to learn more about the new Leaf backs and especially their new True Wide Back, I called my LEAF salesman yesterday to see what kind of upgrade package LEAF is offering their old customers. What I learned was very depressing if the info I received is correct:
LEAF no longer upgrades your 54S, 75S or previous backs since this line no longer exist in its old form (at least not in name)). Apparently they will offer you a trade-in instead. For the 75S you will be paid $ 12 500.00 USD when upgrading to the AptusII 6, 7 or 10. For their other backs even less. With prices ranging from $20 000.00 - 40 000.00 USD for these new mfdb´s you are loosing a big chunk of your initial investment and you have to start over all again more or less if you want to stay current. This is truly b-s!
What surprises me is that LEAF has decided to take this road as it kills any incentive to stay "brand loyal". Instead they and other manufactures of mfdb´s should take every measure to hold on to their old clients since Canon, Nikon and Sony are standing on their door step with their 20+ digital dslr´s starting at less than $3000.00! The only advantages with mfdb´s over dslr´s at this point is the dynamic range, faster flash sync (not all models), larger view finder and generally a different and shallower depth of field.
It only takes that Canon, Nikon or Sony invents a new type of camera with a large bright viewfinder with live view (necessary for the new video function), a new shutter system with a super fast flash sync, a slightly larger and more square sensor (no problem with the image circle of current lenses) and with more megapixel. With the CS4 and newer versions of this software it will be simple to reproduce the unique bouquet of medium and large format lenses with a simple push of a button. When this happen, and we are probably only talking about 2-3 years from now, it will be game over for the medium format industry!
My belief is that the majority of todays mfdb users largely consists of photographers that once started out when medium format cameras was the ultimate norm. This means that there is a form of emotional connection or call it habit to shoot with these kind of cameras. But with this generation of photographers pushing 40 or 50, I think it´s very important for LEAF and company to take a closer look at the purchase habits of the real young photographers in their early 20´s that one day will take over the industry. They will never afford or have the chance to get "used" to mfdb systems with todays pricing and upgrade policy. Unless the remaining players - LEAF, HASSELBLAD, PHASE, SINAR AND MAMIYA - drastically changes their pricing structure and learn to adapt to their real competitors - CANON, NIKON AND SONY - they will only be a footnote in the history of photography!
Per Bernal
[attachment=8474:attachment]
-
I´ve been a owner and user of LEAF backs for the past three years now. Besides the quality of the files and rapidness of shooting compared with other brands and comparable products, the upgrade pattern of the LEAF products was a great incentive in the decision of buying the Aptus 75 at the time. To upgrade to the 75S was affordable and last summer I picked up a used 54S at a very good price and with the "promise" that LEAF would continue their upgrade pattern in the future. Curios to learn more about the new Leaf backs and especially their new True Wide Back, I called my LEAF salesman yesterday to see what kind of upgrade package LEAF is offering their old customers. What I learned was very depressing if the info I received is correct:
LEAF no longer upgrades your 54S, 75S or previous backs since this line no longer exist in its old form (at least not in name)). Apparently they will offer you a trade-in instead. For the 75S you will be paid $ 12 500.00 USD when upgrading to the AptusII 6, 7 or 10. For their other backs even less. With prices ranging from $20 000.00 - 40 000.00 USD for these new mfdb´s you are loosing a big chunk of your initial investment and you have to start over all again more or less if you want to stay current. This is truly b-s!
What surprises me is that LEAF has decided to take this road as it kills any incentive to stay "brand loyal". Instead they and other manufactures of mfdb´s should take every measure to hold on to their old clients since Canon, Nikon and Sony are standing on their door step with their 20+ digital dslr´s starting at less than $3000.00! The only advantages with mfdb´s over dslr´s at this point is the dynamic range, faster flash sync (not all models), larger view finder and generally a different and shallower depth of field.
It only takes that Canon, Nikon or Sony invents a new type of camera with a large bright viewfinder with live view (necessary for the new video function), a new shutter system with a super fast flash sync, a slightly larger and more square sensor (no problem with the image circle of current lenses) and with more megapixel. With the CS4 and newer versions of this software it will be simple to reproduce the unique bouquet of medium and large format lenses with a simple push of a button. When this happen, and we are probably only talking about 2-3 years from now, it will be game over for the medium format industry!
My belief is that the majority of todays mfdb users largely consists of photographers that once started out when medium format cameras was the ultimate norm. This means that there is a form of emotional connection or call it habit to shoot with these kind of cameras. But with this generation of photographers pushing 40 or 50, I think it´s very important for LEAF and company to take a closer look at the purchase habits of the real young photographers in their early 20´s that one day will take over the industry. They will never afford or have the chance to get "used" to mfdb systems with todays pricing and upgrade policy. Unless the remaining players - LEAF, HASSELBLAD, PHASE, SINAR AND MAMIYA - drastically changes their pricing structure and learn to adapt to their real competitors - CANON, NIKON AND SONY - they will only be a footnote in the history of photography!
Per Bernal
[attachment=8474:attachment]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223992\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I notice you can't upgrade a Phase one P21 anymore either. I wasn't told that when I bought my back. Humf, a bit silly really, those Leica's are looking very nice and the Hassy is quite cheap now too...
-
I notice you can't upgrade a Phase one P21 anymore either. I wasn't told that when I bought my back. Humf, a bit silly really, those Leica's are looking very nice and the Hassy is quite cheap now too...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223993\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I've always felt that the upgrade system's main purpose was to keep the amount of used backs out of the market, so the prices could be managed by the manufacturers and the dealers.
In other words an Aptus 22 wouldn't drop used to $5,000 but instead be $10,000 so going with the newest model for a $15,000 upgrade price made more sense.
Same with Phase and I guess Hasselblad.
Now it seems there is less bottom end to protect, because dslrs are now at 20 mpx, so I guess the makers assume that if the used market gets flooded with 18 or 20 mpx backs then it won't effect their new sales.
The problem with all of this is the element of trust that get's tossed away when they change the rules in the middle of the game.
You can't play both sides of the fence. Staying stick with us and you can always upgrade doesn't work when your told a year later, uh sorry, we don't upgrade from that product anymore.
Once again, when it comes to customer trust, medium format at times has walked a pretty shaking line and this is just another example.
I think all of this will have the opposite effect for the manufacturers and probably in the end a positive effect for the photographer as probably a fairly large (by medium format standards) used market will open up.
Personally, there is nothing I've seen from photokina that would make me run out and spend 40 or 50 grand, even at U.S. peso standards.
In fact the only thing I would think of purchasing right now (other than a 5d) would be an Aptus 22 or 54 as I assume those used prices are going to drop, especially in light of Hasselblad's latest annoucement.
I think eventually as the dslrs increase in file sizes and medium format gets more and more into the closed format system, you will see medium format begin to devise ways to lower thier prices substantially. Probably by cutting dealer margins or even selling direct.
Medium format is chaning the rules and I would keep a sharp eye out on the for sale section of this forum and e-bay.
I would also get ready to dust off those RZ's hasselblad V's and Contax's because once the older, lower mpx medium format backs drop in price the average photographer, even to the serious amateur level can add one to their kit without taking a big hit.
Somewhat like buying a used bmw that came off of lease. Let the original buyer take the big hit.
In all the photographer's I've spoken to in the last few weeks, a few have said they might "look" at a new medium format back, though none has confirmed they would buy one.
To a person they all said they'll buy a 5d2.
JR
-
I'm not vouching for Leaf, but I think it's very unreasonable to expect upgrading your actual unit with new tech. If you want the new unit, you buy the new product in it's entirety. That's not changed here. The non-s to s models was perhaps a unique situation.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224010\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
hmm - in normal circumstances I'd agree, but... the deal was that they promised this upgrade path, maybe not in cold hard contract, but there was and has been so far this definite intention to look after you, and in exchange for, oh 5 - 10k upgrade you to the latest, if you so wished. Phase is the same, we're all waiting to see if they offer a decent upgrade P45+ > P65+, if it stays at the $15k figure, I'm not doing it in this economic climate.
yes the mfdb market is limited, but you know it should grow - students are now beginning to appear with them, and that makes a lot of sense - an old contax with a P45, (maybe not +) is great for 3 year course and pays for itself. and there's a lot of photo students out there!
-
OK, the A-75 to A-75s upgrade was a minor internal change out as I understood it. They weren't completely rebuilding every internal component. The Aptus II models are basically a complete rebuild inside with 2 previously used sensors the for the 65 and 75 and the new truewide sensor. But they are using a new screen now as well. So I guess I don't understand why we think we just send in our back and they give us all new internal parts every time new products are announced.
I'm not vouching for Leaf, but I think it's very unreasonable to expect upgrading your actual unit with new tech. If you want the new unit, you buy the new product in it's entirety. That's not changed here. The non-s to s models was perhaps a unique situation.
And to be quite honest, how the hell is the 75s now not the newest technology? It's the same image quality that the new 75 models will have. Show me one client that demands more than what the 75s gives.
Yes, all this gear is ridiculously expensive but no one is forcing us to buy the newest for each product line announcement.
The pricing and depreciation of MFDBs has actually not changed all that much since the mid 90's. You buy $30-40K in 2-3 years it's worth half and go even further out time wise it will be worth very little. But we have reached a point where most backs within the last 3-4 years are all very good, superb image quality, work fine, have software that's matured now.
I feel lucky, I bought an A22 new for $10K a year ago. It was luck and I am thankful for that. But I won't be disillusioned about the fact that in 2-3 years it will only be worth maybe $4-5K if lucky, probably a lot less. In the mean time I use to make money through client work and do personal work as well which is much cheaper than film, roids and drum scans, that's what the purpose is.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224010\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The point is that LEAF has been using the upgrade path as a selling argument. Let´s say that you want to trade up to the new AptusII 7 version with the same sensor as in 75S but with a new and brighter screen, with blue tooth functions that communicates with the Iphone etc. This new version retails at around $30 000.00 USD or more. For you to upgrade it would cost you roughly $20 000.00 or more with the "new" trade in program. That´s not OK when I was promised an affordable upgrade pattern by LEAF when I bought in to their system.
The smartest player right now is Hasselblad with it´s H3 products and I think they will come out on top in the end if they continue what they are doing. A sudden 40% price reduction on their products shows an impressive willingness to adapt. They cannot compete just yet with Leaf and Sinar when it comes to capture rate and buffer in certain products, but when that happens Hasselblad will be able to sell a lot their systems to photographers regardless of their specialty
as long as the price is reasonable. They are able to control their costs in a different way than the other manufactures due to in house production and are able to make money on all components - not only their digital backs!
-
I guess MFD market is still not stable and mature. When we can choose between MFD and 135DSLR just like we choose between 120film and 135film, we'll feel much safer to invest in the newest MFD gears(with one or two MFD manufacturers fade out).
You can't play both sides of the fence. Staying stick with us and you can always upgrade doesn't work when your told a year later, uh sorry, we don't upgrade from that product anymore.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224003\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
I guess MFD market is still not stable and mature. When we can choose between MFD and 135DSLR just like we choose between 120film and 135film, we'll feel much safer to invest in the newest MFD gears(with one or two MFD manufacturers fade out).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224035\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Funny how the Leaf promoters are always ready to jump into a thread saying something..
Where are they on this thread... Hiding in the SHAME!
Snook
-
Funny how the Leaf promoters are always ready to jump into a thread saying something..
Where are they on this thread... Hiding in the SHAME!
Snook
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224066\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You read my mind. I´m surprised there´s no respond from YaYa. I think this will backfire big time on Leafs behalf with major price cuts before years end. Especially with Hasselblads new price strategy.
Per
-
It's clear that the old upgrade path model is broken for the manufacturers. The new H3DII-60 is $36K or so. If Hasselblad sells me that model for say $10K plus my H3D-39, they are essentially allowing me $26K as the trade-in value for my H3d-39. But guess what a used H3D-39 is selling for now? There is one for sale on LL FS section for less than $13K, with an 80mm lens no less.
Two things have happened here to drive the price of used MFDBs way down. One, the manufacturers are aggressively cutting prices on new backs. Two, there are a lot more backs out in the marketplace chasing the relatively few buyers out there.
The smart money, IMO, will go after the 39mp H3D and the P45 in the used market. If you can find a lightly used one for $13k or so, that is a great deal. I think you are leaving very little on the table in real world performance compared to the forthcoming 60 MP models ($37K for the Hasselblad and $42K for the Phamiya).
-
Gidday,
Well this is a kick in the guts from Leaf. I was told 2 and a half years ago when I bought my Leaf Aptus 75 that in the future I could up grade when newer models came out.
I was told buy David Kay of Sun Studios Australia that Leaf wanted photographers to use there products for life hence there up grade policy as a sign of Leaf’s commitment to there customers.
Yeah right mate!
Simon
-
You read my mind. I´m surprised there´s no respond from YaYa. I think this will backfire big time on Leafs behalf with major price cuts before years end. Especially with Hasselblads new price strategy.
Per
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224075\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I wouldn't bash Leaf of this cause Hasselblad has suspended thier upgrade path and Phase is doing it on some products so they are all chaning their methods.
I do think there is an element of trust that gets lost in all of this and of course all attachment to brand loyalty.
The thing is Medium Format is a small market but it seems top heavy in the sales and distribution channels.
I'd love to know what the manufacturer net is on one of these backs, vs. the dealer net.
I believe for any of these companies to survive long term they are going to have to build the medium format market not close it off and costs and accessability is the best way to go about it.
Get these cameras in real camera stores, not just speciality digital dealers, make it attractive for the dealers to warehouse them.
Still, it all comes down to costs and obviously hasselblad has fired the first round.
I got an e-mail from a digital specialty dealer a month ago stating they were closing shop mostly due to the fact that hands on training is no longer a big part of the digital world.
Don't know if that is actually true or just their take on it, but regardless, they closed shop.
JR
-
I´ve been a owner and user of LEAF backs for the past three years now. Besides the quality of the files and rapidness of shooting compared with other brands and comparable products, the upgrade pattern of the LEAF products was a great incentive in the decision of buying the Aptus 75 at the time. To upgrade to the 75S was affordable and last summer I picked up a used 54S at a very good price and with the "promise" that LEAF would continue their upgrade pattern in the future. Curios to learn more about the new Leaf backs and especially their new True Wide Back, I called my LEAF salesman yesterday to see what kind of upgrade package LEAF is offering their old customers. What I learned was very depressing if the info I received is correct:
LEAF no longer upgrades your 54S, 75S or previous backs since this line no longer exist in its old form (at least not in name)). Apparently they will offer you a trade-in instead. For the 75S you will be paid $ 12 500.00 USD when upgrading to the AptusII 6, 7 or 10. For their other backs even less. With prices ranging from $20 000.00 - 40 000.00 USD for these new mfdb´s you are loosing a big chunk of your initial investment and you have to start over all again more or less if you want to stay current. This is truly b-s!
What surprises me is that LEAF has decided to take this road as it kills any incentive to stay "brand loyal". Instead they and other manufactures of mfdb´s should take every measure to hold on to their old clients since Canon, Nikon and Sony are standing on their door step with their 20+ digital dslr´s starting at less than $3000.00! The only advantages with mfdb´s over dslr´s at this point is the dynamic range, faster flash sync (not all models), larger view finder and generally a different and shallower depth of field.
It only takes that Canon, Nikon or Sony invents a new type of camera with a large bright viewfinder with live view (necessary for the new video function), a new shutter system with a super fast flash sync, a slightly larger and more square sensor (no problem with the image circle of current lenses) and with more megapixel. With the CS4 and newer versions of this software it will be simple to reproduce the unique bouquet of medium and large format lenses with a simple push of a button. When this happen, and we are probably only talking about 2-3 years from now, it will be game over for the medium format industry!
My belief is that the majority of todays mfdb users largely consists of photographers that once started out when medium format cameras was the ultimate norm. This means that there is a form of emotional connection or call it habit to shoot with these kind of cameras. But with this generation of photographers pushing 40 or 50, I think it´s very important for LEAF and company to take a closer look at the purchase habits of the real young photographers in their early 20´s that one day will take over the industry. They will never afford or have the chance to get "used" to mfdb systems with todays pricing and upgrade policy. Unless the remaining players - LEAF, HASSELBLAD, PHASE, SINAR AND MAMIYA - drastically changes their pricing structure and learn to adapt to their real competitors - CANON, NIKON AND SONY - they will only be a footnote in the history of photography!
Per Bernal
Per it seems as if you were given the wrong figures or that the information was somehow misexplained/ misunderstood.
I don't have the US prices in from of me but in general the price for trading in a Aptus 75S for a new Aptus-II 7 is a bit over $7K which mean you get more than $24K for your A75S.
There is no official path from Aptus 75S to Aptus-II 6 as we do not expect people to want to go down in chip size and pixel count.
The trade-in price from an Aptus 75S to a new Aptus-II 10 is under $9K which means you pay an extra of less than $2K for a bigger, newer model with advanced functionality etc.
If you need any further clarification please let me know and I will ask someone from Leaf America to contact you ASAP with all the information.
And my sincere apology to everyone here for "hiding in the shame" as we're quite busy here at the show selling new products to new customers as well as existing ones.
Another long and busy day tomorrow so I'd better switch off now.
Kindest,
Yair
-
Per it seems as if you were given the wrong figures or that the information was somehow misexplained/ misunderstood.
I don't have the US prices in from of me but in general the price for trading in a Aptus 75S for a new Aptus-II 7 is a bit over $7K which mean you get more than $24K for your A75S.
There is no official path from Aptus 75S to Aptus-II 6 as we do not expect people to want to go down in chip size and pixel count.
The trade-in price from an Aptus 75S to a new Aptus-II 10 is under $9K which means you pay an extra of less than $2K for a bigger, newer model with advanced functionality etc.
If you need any further clarification please let me know and I will ask someone from Leaf America to contact you ASAP with all the information.
And my sincere apology to everyone here for "hiding in the shame" as we're quite busy here at the show selling new products to new customers as well as existing ones.
Another long and busy day tomorrow so I'd better switch off now.
Kindest,
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224114\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That´s very good news indeed, Yair, (but still a little bit high for the upgrade compared to previous years). I asked my Leaf rep/sales man to verify the figure he gave me at least two times before ending my conversation with him and apparently he was basing the numbers on a official letter from Leaf. I will kick his ..... next time I see him if he was wrong:( I don´t mean to create controversy but it´s important that you and the company you represent honor your promises if you want my continued business. I´m positive 100% of the photographers visiting this board are of the same opinion as me.
Yair, I would really appreciate if one of your people could contact me and clarify the whole matter. Send me a personal message with a name and a number when you have a minute. I sincerely apologize if I was wrong and I assure you it was not my deliberate intention to spread any misinformation.
All the best, Per Bernal
-
Just to chip in that I got similar numbers from my dealer from Singapore (slightly higher...) regarding upgrade prices
yaya, are there upgrade prices to the AFi 10?(with body of course)
Tough decisions to make this period as hasselblad has dropped their prices considerably.
One more thing: if Phase One says that their new sensor removes the need of cropping on the viewfinder, then how does it work for Leaf's 56x36mm sensor since it's over 5mm longer than the Phase One's?
-
Excuse my ignorance, but from what Ive heard on this forum, the savings in film processing and purchasing far exceeds the cost of a digital back. It seems as a pro you should be able to throw that back in the trash and still be ahead. What have I missed here?
-
I don't have the US prices in from of me but in general the price for trading in a Aptus 75S for a new Aptus-II 7 is a bit over $7K which mean you get more than $24K for your A75S.
The trade-in price from an Aptus 75S to a new Aptus-II 10 is under $9K which means you pay an extra of less than $2K for a bigger, newer model with advanced functionality etc.
I'm looking at Leaf US pricing and I believe the pricing you are referring to is Leaf's upgrade path to the Aptus II 10 or AFi II 10 (back-only). That upgrade path takes into account if you purchase an A75S (or any other Leaf back) between September 2, 2008, and December, 28, 2008.
For Leaf backs purchased prior to September 2, 2008, there is a trade-in path. That trade-in path maybe somewhat higher than the upgrade path.
Hope that makes sense, and my information is at least partially correct.
David
-
The numbers Yair is quoting are more reasonable and about 50% less that the info from Calumet.
I second the request for detailed written info on the upgrade path.
I have raised the issue of Leaf upgrades on LL several months ago. September 12 was exactly one year since I received my brand new A75s after waiting for it for long few months. The newest, fastest and the greatest technology - A75s. By the time I unpacked the box and read the instruction AFi7 was announced - you know - the greatest, newest......
I requested the upgrade info and was electricuted with a number of 17.5K without a lens.
Since for all technical reasons the AFi7 was the same exact back than A75s it meant that Leaf was asking me for $17.5K for Afi body without a film back nor a lens. I though it was ridiculous and a slap in a face for a loyal Leaf user. At that moment I realized that I can only be loyal to myself.
I am a WLF user. Matter of fact I can not shoot 645 or 35mm because of the prism. Most of my images are shot vertical with camera below my waist. Trying to use the prism at this level is impossible as it is in the dead spot between sitting and laying down. My camera options are very limited. Afi looked like a good alternative for my heavy Rz67. If I ever consider a new back it will only be for the change of camera and not for the technology. I for one can say that nobody in working field of photography needs any better files that these from A75s or A75 or even A22.
If you can not make a great image with A22 you will not make one with AFi5-100 ( whatever ).
I am quite disappointed that again even the upgraded AptusII will not be able to work with Afi via adapter. 100 other cameras and makers but not your own brand. I think that it is ashame.
The owners of perfectly fine A75s are forced to dump their backs and buy into AFi in order to put Leaf backs on Leaf camera. There is something wrong here. On top of everything else the price of this "upgrade" is almost equal the price of a complete new digital system with the same exact camera offered by Sinar with a $3000 bonus lens. Am I missing something here or in practical sense the great guys from Leaf are telling me to switch to Sinar, Rollei or Hasselblad and to take my kids to Disneyworld. Brand loyalty starts and ends with customer loyalty and customer service. Brand loyalty is is not a one way road and with todays economy it is much easier to LOOSE A CUSTOMER THAN TO GAIN ONE.
http://AndreNapier.com (http://AndreNapier.com)
-
Excuse my ignorance, but from what Ive heard on this forum, the savings in film processing and purchasing far exceeds the cost of a digital back. It seems as a pro you should be able to throw that back in the trash and still be ahead. What have I missed here?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224187\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
What you missing is a COMMON SENSE.
Andre
-
If I ever consider a new back it will only be for the change of camera and not for the technology. I for one can say that nobody in working field of photography needs any better files that these from A75s or A75 or even A22.
If you can not make a great image with A22 you will not make one with AFi5-100 ( whatever ).
I for one would like very much to get your opinion on the AFi II 7 with 45 degree finder and the new 120mm F4 AFD lens.
David
-
Hi,
I beta tested the AFi-II 7 a few weeks ago, and can say there are a few things that some photographers will like very much.
Biggest changes:
1. Better screen, it's not like the new DSLR screens but it has been MUCH approved.
2. The screen can be tilted, this is handy when using the WLF.
3. The sensor can now be changed from portrait to landscape with a switch, that is a BIG plus, on the old AFi you had to physically remove the back and turn it. Try that on a windy beach and you have wonderful natural grain on your shots
4. Images show up on the display even when shooting tethered.
5. Images show up on an iphone if you need, very nice feature if you have several people looking at the images, the iPhone can zoom in on the files (not a small jpeg preview).
There are several other improvements but these are the ones that caught my eye as very positive.
I agree that if you can't take a good picture with the A22 or other ones it will not happen with the new backs, but some of the updates/improvements can be VERY VERY handy, for me the switching of the sensor to landscape/portrait is worth an upgrade, especially when working outside.
I will try to make a longer review on my blog when I'm back from photokina.
The last two days I have been shooting with the AFi-10 and the file quality (as far as I can judge from my macbookpro) is stunning, in the closeups you can almost make out the DNA of the model
-
3. The sensor can now be changed from portrait to landscape with a switch, that is a BIG plus, on the old AFi you had to physically remove the back and turn it. Try that on a windy beach and you have wonderful natural grain on your shots :
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224217\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Frank,
I have this feature on my Rz for the past 20 years and since I put my first Phase One LightPhase BD on my camera.
Dave,
Have you got my PM last nite?
Andre
-
The last two days I have been shooting with the AFi-10 and the file quality (as far as I can judge from my macbookpro) is stunning, in the closeups you can almost make out the DNA of the model
Frank,
How robust is the SensorFlex option?
David
-
Per it seems as if you were given the wrong figures or that the information was somehow misexplained/ misunderstood.
I don't have the US prices in from of me but in general the price for trading in a Aptus 75S for a new Aptus-II 7 is a bit over $7K which mean you get more than $24K for your A75S.
There is no official path from Aptus 75S to Aptus-II 6 as we do not expect people to want to go down in chip size and pixel count.
The trade-in price from an Aptus 75S to a new Aptus-II 10 is under $9K which means you pay an extra of less than $2K for a bigger, newer model with advanced functionality etc.
If you need any further clarification please let me know and I will ask someone from Leaf America to contact you ASAP with all the information.
And my sincere apology to everyone here for "hiding in the shame" as we're quite busy here at the show selling new products to new customers as well as existing ones.
Another long and busy day tomorrow so I'd better switch off now.
Kindest,
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224114\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi guys,
Since I haven´t heard back from Yair and LEAF yet I decided to be proactive and double check the upgrade/trade-in prices I quoted in my first post and that I had misunderstood or been given the wrong info according to Yair. But it looks like I wasn´t to far off after all. Here are the in-official, for reseller only, numbers that I just got from my LEAF source and they apply to H-mounted LEAF backs ( I´m positive the pricing applies to backs with other mounts as well):
54S with H-mount to the AptusII/7 (33 mpx)
Trade-in value 54S - $ 9325.00 USD
AptusII/7 retail price - $ 32 995.00 USD
You pay a difference of $ 23 670.00 USD for this upgrade
54S with H-mount to the AptusII/10 (50 mpx)
Trade-in value 54 S - $ 9110.00 USD
AptusII/10 retail price- $ 34 995.00 USD
You pay a difference of $ 25 885.00 USD for this upgrade
Here´s were it get´s real interesting:
75S with H-mount to the AptusII/7 (33 mpx) - same sensor but better display & wifi
Trade-in value 75S - $ 15610.00 USD
AptusII/7 retail price - $ 32 995.00 USD
You pay a difference of $ 17 385.00 USD for this upgrade (not $ 7000.00 USD - YAIR!!!)
75S with H-mount to the AptusII/10 (50 mpx)
Trade-in value 75S - $ 12 540.00 USD
AptusII/10 retail price - $ 34 995.00 USD
You pay a difference of $ 22 455.00 USD for this upgrade
The numbers speak for them self. I can understand if the price difference would be bigger between a product like he 54S and the new AptusII 7 since the sensors is different in size but it shouldn´t be the case between the 75S and AptusII 7. I´m seriously thinking of dropping my LEAF backs and go Hasselblad instead. Unless LEAF steps up to the plate and honors their upgrade promises to existing owners of their backs!
I have heard rumors that Hasselblad will launch a very aggressive trade-in program soon for non-Hasselblad digital back owners to get them to change over to the H3D system. The change over would cost almost nothing for LEAF and PHASE shooters and you would get almost identical or better products than you already have. Seems like Hasselblad is going for world domination no matter the cost and making the money back on lens sales instead. For now I´m going to sit down and wait to see what unfolds.
Per Bernal
-
Per,
Please email me with your full contact details and we will have the right person contacting you with the right prices. I have googeld your name and am confused as to where you are based.
Many thanks,
yair
-
Just to chip in that I got similar numbers from my dealer from Singapore (slightly higher...) regarding upgrade prices
yaya, are there upgrade prices to the AFi 10?(with body of course)
Tough decisions to make this period as hasselblad has dropped their prices considerably.
One more thing: if Phase One says that their new sensor removes the need of cropping on the viewfinder, then how does it work for Leaf's 56x36mm sensor since it's over 5mm longer than the Phase One's?
hi yaya not sure if you missed my reply, any info on my above questions?
Also, Can you confirm the upgrade prices just for general clarity.
-
hi yaya not sure if you missed my reply, any info on my above questions?
Also, Can you confirm the upgrade prices just for general clarity.
My apologies Jing as I DID miss your post (as it was during Photokina I'm sure I missed others, not that it is a good excuse....)
Yes there are paths and prices for trade-ins to the AFi-II 10 (from Leaf and Non-Leaf backs). these were communicated to our dealers during Photokina so by now they should be able to give you the exact figures.
I will be at the Expo next week in NY so if you would like to come and say hello It'll be great and we can get all the figures for you then.
BR
Yair
-
for me the switching of the sensor to landscape/portrait is worth an upgrade, especially when working outside.
Arca RM3D and the Rotaslide can do it with every MFDB !
-
hmm - in normal circumstances I'd agree, but... the deal was that they promised this upgrade path, maybe not in cold hard contract, but there was and has been so far this definite intention to look after you, and in exchange for, oh 5 - 10k upgrade you to the latest, if you so wished. Phase is the same, we're all waiting to see if they offer a decent upgrade P45+ > P65+, if it stays at the $15k figure, I'm not doing it in this economic climate.
yes the mfdb market is limited, but you know it should grow - students are now beginning to appear with them, and that makes a lot of sense - an old contax with a P45, (maybe not +) is great for 3 year course and pays for itself. and there's a lot of photo students out there!
A new P45+ lists at $23,990. A refurbished warrantied P45+ lists at $18,990. Used backs vary wildly depending on condition/warranty/support/seller-desperation but almost always is less than the refurbished price.
A new P65+ lists $39,990. The upgrade from a 45+ lists $15,990 which values your P45+ at $24,000.
For that price you get 50% higher resolution, a larger sensor, a larger uncropped viewfinder, much faster capture rate, flexible resolution/ISO, built-in fw cover and tilt-meter, on-screen grids and B+W view, and a restart on your warranty.
I will completely understand if what you're saying is that for YOU the price is not worth the benefits. That's completely personal. But the upgrade price places the value of your used back very close to a new P45+ and WAY above the price you'd get selling it on the open market so it's hard for me to see how that's not a "decent" price.
The upgrade prices for the P40+ on the other hand are pretty weak. However, a dealer can often do much better than the official upgrade program.
edit: I revised the new price of the P45+. I mistyped it initially as $25,990.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:[email protected])
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
-
I wouldn't bash Leaf of this cause Hasselblad has suspended thier upgrade path and Phase is doing it on some products so they are all chaning their methods.
JR
Hi James,
As I have explained many times in the past the change in the upgrade plan was combined at the same time with an average price drop of 40%. I have showed many times with various calculations that the difference in outright cost to the end user was very small, bearing in mind they also kept their original camera.
Best,
David
-
A new P45+ lists at $25,990. A refurbished warrantied P45+ lists at $18,990. Used backs vary wildly depending on condition/warranty/support/seller-desperation but almost always is less than the refurbished price.
A new P65+ lists $39,990. The upgrade from a 45+ lists $15,990 which values your P45+ at $24,000.
{Snip}
Does anyone actually pay LIST i.e. FULL RETAIL price for his MFDB?
What's the street price on a new P65+, Doug? I am sorry; I don't know any secret handshake. I hazard a guess but $29, 990.00 for the P65+ won't be far of the mark?
Schmal
-
A new P45+ lists at $25,990. A refurbished warrantied P45+ lists at $18,990.
[font= \"Arial\"]Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:[email protected])
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)[/font]
Doug:
Your pricing on a new P45+ is off. $23,990 please sir. End users are thinking when they call a dealer, they may get a price quote below that price, but they are not counting on getting one above it!
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
-
A new P65+...
For that price you get 50% higher resolution, ...
With respect, a correction as well, if I may-- the P65+ gives you 50% more pixels. (That gives 22% more resolution.)
-Brad
-
Does anyone actually pay LIST i.e. FULL RETAIL price for his MFDB?
What's the street price on a new P65+, Doug? I am sorry; I don't know any secret handshake. I hazard a guess but $29, 990.00 for the P65+ won't be far of the mark?
I agree with this sentiment.
The weird thing about buying from a dealer, where the price is not fixed, and can fluctuate based on conditions unknown to me, you end up in this weird place with the dealer, especially if you're friends with them, or they've simply helped you out on a forum like this.
On one hand, once you know that the price is fluid, you don't want to go to them and screw them to a wall, and beat them to death on the price, because of some weird guilty feeling, that they've helped you out in the past.
But on the other hand, you feel like a total chump if you go in there and pay full list.
I love the fact that when you buy a Canon, you're pretty much paying what everybody else is paying, and the deal feels solid. I guess it'll never be that way in MediumFormat, but it does make you wonder how it would actually affect sales if there WAS a fixed price. How many customers just didn't want to fight the Do The Deal Fight, and just said screw it and bought a Canon or a Nikon. (Or, how many people bought a used MFDB, outside of the dealer system). It just makes you wonder.
-
@steve: yikes! thanks, I corrected the price. I guess that's why I'm in technical services rather than sales!
Does anyone actually pay LIST i.e. FULL RETAIL price for his MFDB?
What's the street price on a new P65+, Doug? I am sorry; I don't know any secret handshake. I hazard a guess but $29, 990.00 for the P65+ won't be far of the mark?
Schmal
Perhaps you'd like to start off the Sharing Game by listing each of your clients and what each one pays you. Do your various clients pay identical rates? Are any of them using secret handshakes? It takes literally 2 minutes to call any dealer and get a quote, and in our case we publicly publish our cell phones so you could even call after hours. It seems like the only people who ever complain about not having a clear street price on a product are those on the sideline not actually interested in purchasing.
With respect, a correction as well, if I may-- the P65+ gives you 50% more pixels. (That gives 22% more resolution.)
-Brad
No need to be so polite; I know you bradley and I know you're not nit picking. It is a perfectly reasonable critique. In linear print size it is 22% bigger. In square feet of print size it is 50% bigger. For someone selling work at a gallery the price is usually more closely aligned with square footage than linear print size, but of course there are many equally good reasons to think in linear print size.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:[email protected])
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
-
I love the fact that when you buy a Canon, you're pretty much paying what everybody else is paying, and the deal feels solid. I guess it'll never be that way in MediumFormat, but it does make you wonder how it would actually affect sales if there WAS a fixed price. How many customers just didn't want to fight the Do The Deal Fight, and just said screw it and bought a Canon or a Nikon. (Or, how many people bought a used MFDB, outside of the dealer system). It just makes you wonder.
If everyone is selling an item at the exact same price it means that the profit is so thin that the only people that can sell it are box-movers. Do you want MFDB to go over to exclusively a box-mover distribution system? That would mean among other things that there would be no local demos, very little local training, no forum presence (good luck getting good info when buying your used back then), and any/all support would come from John Smith at a central call center 9am to 5pm who has no idea who you are. Do you see no benefit to the Value Added Reseller model? You can't have it both ways.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:[email protected])
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
-
If everyone is selling an item at the exact same price it means that the profit is so thin that the only people that can sell it are box-movers. Do you want MFDB to go over to exclusively a box-mover distribution system? That would mean among other things that there would be no local demos, very little local training, no forum presence (good luck getting good info when buying your used back then), and any/all support would come from John Smith at a central call center 9am to 5pm who has no idea who you are. Do you see no benefit to the Value Added Reseller model? You can't have it both ways.
While I'm grateful to have dealers and reps providing information and help, I sometimes ask myself why do brands like Canon or Nikon or Sony or Fuji etc sell far more products than the MFDB makers without the need for their sales people or reps to be here daily? My view is they have put in far more work to make sure their products stay reliable, are much easier to use, provide much much more information on their items, supply well written and detailed manuals, ensure more transparency in their sales channels, etc, to name a few. This approach empowers users to be far more independent of the dealers.
After buying into an MFDB system, I found that although image quality is nice, my Canons and Nikons are actually far more complex cameras, with many options and features. That got me thinking again...does everyone who owns an MFDB needs hand holding from a dealer or rep when by reading a Canon or Nikon manual, one can comprehend and get proficient in using their more complex cameras in as short a time?
I'm sure there's a need for a business model whereby a photog pays premium for a dealer to come demo and subsequently trains and hand-holds him until he's ready to float off on his own. However, there should also be a choice for others to just buy an MFDB system off the shelf and then swim on his own. So far, I've only spent 15 mins with my dealer when he delivered my back and honestly I doubt I'll be calling him again until the back gives me problems or when I need to buy another back. I really cannot see how he can help me make better images out of the back because far better teachers can be found on this and other forums.
-
Per it seems as if you were given the wrong figures or that the information was somehow misexplained/ misunderstood.
I don't have the US prices in from of me but in general the price for trading in a Aptus 75S for a new Aptus-II 7 is a bit over $7K which mean you get more than $24K for your A75S.
There is no official path from Aptus 75S to Aptus-II 6 as we do not expect people to want to go down in chip size and pixel count.
The trade-in price from an Aptus 75S to a new Aptus-II 10 is under $9K which means you pay an extra of less than $2K for a bigger, newer model with advanced functionality etc.
If you need any further clarification please let me know and I will ask someone from Leaf America to contact you ASAP with all the information.
And my sincere apology to everyone here for "hiding in the shame" as we're quite busy here at the show selling new products to new customers as well as existing ones.
Another long and busy day tomorrow so I'd better switch off now.
Kindest,
Yair
Well Yair, the way you speak its as if there is a set price from Leaf America but the figures that I was quoted by the dealer are very far from your numbers when I asked about upgrade cost or trade in value for either my Aptus 22 or my 75S towards and Aptus 2-10 since I'm still deciding which one of the back to keep. Can you verify the exact values please, I don't want to be jerked around by some unscrupulous dealer! Thanks.
-
David,
For the sake of clarity, were the prices you received and compared to Yairs something recent
because the pricing you quote from Yair is dated September 2008-over seven months ago.
Mark
-
What you missing is a COMMON SENSE.
Andre
Feeling a bit left out of this debate here in the UK seeing as most of you seem to be States side and talking $$$ , but I thought you might be interested in the upgrade / trading (or what ever else you want to call it) in prices that we are currently offering here in the UK!
For example the Leaf Aptus-II 10 retails here for £21,292 and Leaf are trading in your old Aptus 75 (even if you bought refurbished!) for just £7,890!! that means that Leaf are valuing your old Aptus 75 at £13,402!!! or $19,432 at today exchange rate! many of you probably purchased a refurbished model so are quids in, and many more of you probably bought the back commercially 2 to 3 years ago and have probably paid it off and written it off against TAX.
I think Leaf's trade in program is very fair! question for you all; What is Canon's upgrade price for a Canon 1DS mk II to a mk III?
-
Feeling a bit left out of this debate here in the UK seeing as most of you seem to be States side and talking $$$ , but I thought you might be interested in the upgrade / trading (or what ever else you want to call it) in prices that we are currently offering here in the UK!
For example the Leaf Aptus-II 10 retails here for £21,292 and Leaf are trading in your old Aptus 75 (even if you bought refurbished!) for just £7,890!! that means that Leaf are valuing your old Aptus 75 at £13,402!!! or $19,432 at today exchange rate! many of you probably purchased a refurbished model so are quids in, and many more of you probably bought the back commercially 2 to 3 years ago and have probably paid it off and written it off against TAX.
I think Leaf's trade in program is very fair! question for you all; What is Canon's upgrade price for a Canon 1DS mk II to a mk III?
what's the price on trading in a 75S? is that a better price?
if it is I would love to fly over just to trade-in.
-
I think Leaf's trade in program is very fair! question for you all; What is Canon's upgrade price for a Canon 1DS mk II to a mk III?
I am really not a fan of Canon, but Canon has never promised an upgrade price. The problem is the promises made when people bought combined with the post-Hasselblad-price-drop reality of no real upgrade value being offered in many, but not all, cases.
-
What is Canon's upgrade price for a Canon 1DS mk II to a mk III?
Every Canon I've upgraded to has been about 1/2 the original price. I just drop the old ones off at the local dealer, he gets around $3,200 to $3,400 for a 1ds2, takes a very small commsion and gives me a good deal on the next model, usually a few hundred under list, so the upgrade cost comes in at about $3,400 each.
Since my Canons have about 200x the use of the medium format backs that's a pretty good deal.
On the other hand when I tried to sell my A22 about 2 years ago, I couldn't get any serious offer above $8,000 U.S., including Leaf U.S. dealers. From Europe I had a lot of offers for more, but they wanted me to trade it in on an A75 and ship them the new camera to Europe. To risky, too much hassel, so I just sold it for 8k in cash, though my original buy in on that back was about $23,000.
Lately, just seeing what a good shape used p30+ in a contax mount would sell for in the real world is about $8,000 to $9,000, or about 1/2 the original price.
How times have changed.
B
-
I think the problem is with the development of prices its not really easy for the digital back companies to offer a real usefull upgrade policy.
I believe we can not really expect that in 1 year the price for a P45+ comes down to that of a P25+, and then when you trade in the used P25+ for a new P45+ you still expect maybe 70% of what you paid 1 year agao. (Justas an example).
I believe that with a certain speed price decrease and prices coming under a certain price limit plus short product circles the whole trade in concept doesnt really work efficiently any more.
Upgrading means nearly allways loosing a lot of money. My opinion
-
David,
For the sake of clarity, were the prices you received and compared to Yairs something recent
because the pricing you quote from Yair is dated September 2008-over seven months ago.
Mark
I didn't realize that, I'm talking about a week ago.
-
If everyone is selling an item at the exact same price it means that the profit is so thin that the only people that can sell it are box-movers. Do you want MFDB to go over to exclusively a box-mover distribution system? That would mean among other things that there would be no local demos, very little local training, no forum presence (good luck getting good info when buying your used back then), and any/all support would come from John Smith at a central call center 9am to 5pm who has no idea who you are. Do you see no benefit to the Value Added Reseller model?
Doug,
Maybe I'm missing something here.
I have no problem with the concept/theory of a VAR. But what kinda rubs me is the fact that I might be paying radically more to a VAR than someone else, and getting the very same service. Maybe I didn't bring a 2x4 to the Negotiating Table to beat you down on the price; maybe I just felt like it was kinda slimey to do that; kinda the way that I hate when clients nickel and dime me to death, so I don't do it down the line. I just say, "Be a VAR, and name your price publicly, and let me pay it or not. (Just like the way that B&H names their price on a 1ds3). I've got no problem on your markup, and the fact that you certainly add value to the deal. But I sure as hell don't want to pay four or five grand more than someone else on this forum, for example. Just out of theory".
That's why I buy used now.
Plus, I know that I'm gonna take a major beating when I resell, so there's simply no way to justify getting in real deep, on the front end, when you know you're gonna get killed on the back end.
When you read stories here, of these massive differences in quoted prices between dealers, it's enough money to make someone sit up and take note. Same back; same deal; way different money.
You tend to arm yourself mentally, in the same way that you do before you go in to buy a new car. Armed for battle.
Or just say, F it, and buy it used.
-
[Snip]
Or just say, F it, and buy it used.
Amen to that, brother, amen.
-
Amen to that, brother, amen.
I dig it, but deep down feel for the dealers. The makers . . . ummm not so much, but the dealers and especially the Phase dealers cause they carry the burden of sales, service, training and even minor repairs.
Medium format digital has dug their own hole and it's not like they didn't know there were other cameras out there. The day the first 1ds appeared one of the 4 makers should have bought one, dropped it on their engineers table and said, double everything. double the file quality, the lcd view, tethering speed, wi-fi, reliability, focusing, lenses and software, because back then they were charging four and a half times as much as a 1ds, so at least they could offer twice what those cameras did, though they just chose to offer twice the file size. Kind of funny that they have the same business model.
As far as dealer help that's a double edged sword. On one hand it's nice to have, but on the other, why is the software and use of these cameras so complicated that you have to call someone to understand how to put the files into the software, or connect the camera to the computer?
I've owned every professional canon digital camera and never once called anyone for "tech" support. I've had them fixed, I've had them break, but I've never had to call Canon and have them run me through EOS utility or DPP. I've never had to ask them how to download a card from the camera or backup the files, or what file format the camera shoots.
I'll admit medium format software has become a little easier, compared to those early versions, but still going from C-1 to phocus to lc11 takes a while to find all the buttons and figure out the workflow.
I also know that the world has changed, at least my world. Nobody asks about file size anymore, they just want the look and the result and if you push the button that uprezzes the files from the convertor then fine, you now have a 120mb 8 bit tiff and that's all they're asking for with no complaints.
Yes I feel for the dealers like CI who are good, invest in their business and bust ass to find solutions, but if I was them I would be writing some damn tough letters to Phase asking about price, dealer margins, promised lenses, bodies, accessories and software updates. Many, many software updates.
B
-
UK trade-in price Leaf Aptus 75s to Aptus II 10 is currently £7403.00