Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Digital Cameras & Shooting Techniques => Topic started by: geesbert on September 18, 2008, 09:10:36 am
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Is there anything i can do better with my mark3 than with a 5dmk2?
i got:
faster (don't need)
100% viewfinder(good)
heavier (don't like)
better AF (don't really need)
more expensive (cool!)
wheather sealing (don't need)
The chances are that my AD's wife/father/kid doesn't shoot the same camera for a hobby are smaller.
please help me feel better.
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I don't think it is heavier...
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The 1Ds Mk 3 is available now, the 5D Mk 2 is not available until November. So you can take pictures with the 1Ds right now.
Handling on 1Ds Mk3 is IMO better with larger body - although battery grip would convert 5D to 1Ds shape and size - nearly.
Double memory card slots.
Battery life.
If you are an Adobe user - Camera RAW, Lightroom, then the chances are you'll be able to process 5D Mk2 RAW files almost as soon as you can get the camera. If however you use Aperture then you will possibly need to wait longer for RAW support (if the long wait for 1Ds Mk3 RAW support is anything to base this on...)
I still use my 5D Mk1 loads but almost as a point and shoot - it feels much smaller and lighter after carrying the 1Ds all day!
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If you are taking sports and/or wildlife (nature) photography, then you definitely want the 1DsMk3. The new 5D has the same AF and sluggish fp/sec than the old 5D. I have both bodies (5D & 1DsMk3) and believe me you will loose lots of shots with the 5D MkI or II.
I went to shot a off-road bike race a month ago and it had not rain for a while, the dust flying around was crazy, my face and clothe was dirty by the end of the day. There is not way I would bring any camera that is not seal properly on a environment like this.
Is there anything i can do better with my mark3 than with a 5dmk2?
i got:
faster (don't need)
100% viewfinder(good)
heavier (don't like)
better AF (don't really need)
more expensive (cool!)
wheather sealing (don't need)
The chances are that my AD's wife/father/kid doesn't shoot the same camera for a hobby are smaller.
please help me feel better.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=222327\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Because only the really cool people use a 1Ds III.
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Well, if you'd like, for a nominal fee-----we could always re-badge your 1Ds Mark III with a 5D II badge....
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Well, if you'd like, for a nominal fee-----we could always re-badge your 1Ds Mark III with a 5D II badge....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=222508\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Are they really basically the same...
Sorry for the question but I have not done the side by side comparison.
What are the real differences??
Would be interesting since I shoot portrait and could care o less about shooting a machine gun..:+}
Thanks for any further comparison differences...
That way I would keep my 1DsMII also..:+}
Snook
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as i see it the advantage of the 5D2 that it doesn't look like a "professional" camera and the high ISO perfomance (if it lives up to specification). Do you gain enough from the high frame rate of the 1DS3 to make up for the low light shots from the 5D2?
I'm surprised the ISO performance hasn't been discussed more - the sensor design may be more related to the 50D than the 1DS3. definitely different cameras, and if the 5D2 has close to the high ISO performance of Nikon 12mp, this is a serious technology advance.
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Are they really basically the same...
Sorry for the question but I have not done the side by side comparison.
What are the real differences??
Would be interesting since I shoot portrait and could care o less about shooting a machine gun..:+}
Thanks for any further comparison differences...
That way I would keep my 1DsMII also..:+}
Snook
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=222536\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If you shoot portraits in a studio in good light and don't print bigger than 12x18, the 5D1 will be pretty much indistinguishable from any camera, save MF, out right now.
We're just camera perverts.
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Is there anything i can do better with my mark3 than with a 5dmk2?
i got:
faster (don't need)
100% viewfinder(good)
heavier (don't like)
better AF (don't really need)
more expensive (cool!)
wheather sealing (don't need)
The chances are that my AD's wife/father/kid doesn't shoot the same camera for a hobby are smaller.
please help me feel better.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=222327\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
5D2 came a year later than 1Ds MK3 and all the camera came out in a time itself and became the choice for some. 1Ds still have some advantage as being more robust and perhaps can take more serious abuse, with 5D2 may be it is somewhat less in structure, but image may be at least as good or better?? I am sure the cameras coming in 2009 will surpass the 5D2. Is camera built an important factor? I think it is, in the film days, when all camera can use pretty much the same film, the pro model cost twice or trice as much of lower range, it is the same today I guessed. The video feature is really a nice one, wonder how soon an streaming device will be available to feed the video to other portable storage, but this would sure revolutionize the way we call photojournalist.
I am using the 1Ds MK3, I don't feel bad at all when the 5D2 announced, it delivers lots of work for me and will continue to do so. I guess you make your decision to buy a camera you need or your work needs, not for the fear or worry for future released models.
Regards, K
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no there is no reason to spend + 4000 euro
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no there is no reason to spend + 4000 euro
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=222614\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I m sorry to be blunt - But...Thats just a blanket ignorant statement.
As a professional photographer I believe the 1DSMK3 is worth the price difference because it brings important features [to me] that I want and need - such as 100% viewfinder coverage, full weather sealing, 300,000 shutter life etc.
It may not be worth it to someone else - but in my line of work - its a no brainer.
Edit - and I forgot to add to other very important features to me [and probably others]
1. A vastly superior 45 point auto focus system [just try chasing kids around with a 5D's focus system by comparison] and.
2. 1/250th X Sync.
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Maybe we should wait and see a file from the 5DII before we all neck our 1DsII's ??
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2. 1/250th X Sync.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=222615\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
1 question and 1 comment..
question: the 5d MK II is going to have the digic 4 processor vs a digic 3 in the 1dsmkIII, should this make any difference in actual image quality, or is that just the speed the image is written...?
comment: obviously for the people who need the advantages of the 1dsMkIII the camera will be there, but i dont feel like 1/250th of a flash sync vs 1/200th is that big of a deal, thats 1/3 of a stop. i personally use pocket wizards to fire my strobes, [profoto] and you cant have those sync on ANY canon faster then 200, and there is NO way im gonna hard sync to my packs.. So for someone that shoots only portraits, a weather proof body dosent really interest me in the difference in price as if its raining/snowing outside, i doubt my subjects are gonna be down for their portrait to be made in those conditions.. nor do i need any fancy auto focusing, but thats for my specific style of shooting and im sure if you're shooting wildlife or kids running around like chickens with their heads cut off,its a whole different story..
for me personally i just need a better file then what the current 5D has to offer, i've been using the markIIIds for the past 2 months on all of my shoots and the files are perfect for what i need, so if i can get the same file quality at more then 1/2 the price, this is tempting...
to play devils advocate, as a professional editorial photographer such as myself, you can bill more for the 1dsmkIII camera, at $500/shoot it should only take 2, possibly 3 months to pay off, and then after that, its making you more money then the rental fee for the 5dmkII... decisions decisions..
update: thats battery grip has no option to be bought without the wifi in it, so that'll probably cost another 800-1k, sorta lame they arent going to offer a grip with the fancy wifi..
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question: the 5d MK II is going to have the digic 4 processor vs a digic 3 in the 1dsmkIII, should this make any difference in actual image quality, or is that just the speed the image is written...?
Both.
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Adam, You are correct -- for you, for studio portrait shooting, the 5d (either one) should be fine.
But I agree with Josh, Erick's blanket statement that "there is no reason to spend + 4000 euro" is simply wrong. The 1Ds Mark III is a different camera which has several advantages (and disadvantages) relative to the 5D Mark II. If a photographer requires the features of the 1Ds series cameras, then he or she needs to spend the big bucks. If not, then the 5D series provides terrific image quality at a very attractive price.
I am going back and forth on that subject right now. I shoot with 1D Mark II bodies (the high speed 8mp version). I don't need 21 megapixels, but I would very much like a professional full frame body. I am trying to decide if -- for me -- the 5D Mark II makes more sense than waiting to see if Canon will match the D3 with a full-frame photojournalist's camera. I would like the lighter weight, smaller form factor, full frame, better IQ, etc., but my cameras get very heavy use under sometimes demanding conditions, and frankly, I like having eight frames per second sometimes. So we'll see.
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The correct statement should read "with the introduction of 5D MKII, the desirability to own a 1Ds MKIII over 5D MKII has been sharply reduced and hence the premium is now perceived to be very expensive." Would that be more accurate?
I bought my 5D in Dec 2007 and my 1Ds MKIII in Mar 2008 together with 12 lenses, after moving from Nikon so I think the above would best fit my experience.
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I am having a 1Ds Mark III a 5D and a P45 + H1 , and for me no there is no reason to add > 4000 euros for a 1Ds when the 5D cost 2200 euros
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The correct statement should read "with the introduction of 5D MKII, the desirability to own a 1Ds MKIII over 5D MKII has been sharply reduced and hence the premium is now perceived to be very expensive." Would that be more accurate?
Yup. I think that's a pretty fair assessment.
I love my 1Ds MarkIII----but it does raise some eyebrows that you can buy about THREE new 5D IIs for the same price.
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Just adding further fuel to the fire... The 1D III which is 'practically the same' technology... Differences being UDMA on the 1Ds, Full frame and different prism/shutter mechanism can be had for practically half the price of the 1Ds. With the technology in the 5D2, even adding it on top of the 1DsIII makes it seem that we've been ripped off from the start really... Canon didn't NEED to make the price that high, but they did... Not unheard of in the industry, but really. I feel more hurt about that then anything else so far.
EDIT: Further... When I say I feel hurt... If say they'd honestly couldn't produce it for less then what they're asking for then fair enough... but it's clear now that the margin on the 1DsIII is massive... I have no doubt we'll be seeing some massive discounts for the 1DsIII potential customers soon.
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Let's see: I buy one 1D3 and one 5D2 for a total of $ 6,700.00
I get all the pro features and built of the 1Ds3 with the 1D3
Then I get the 5D2 sensor out and put it inside the 1D3.
Ok, definetely some people have been ripped off at least $ 1,300.00
Eduardo
Just adding further fuel to the fire... The 1D III which is 'practically the same' technology... Differences being UDMA on the 1Ds, Full frame and different prism/shutter mechanism can be had for practically half the price of the 1Ds. With the technology in the 5D2, even adding it on top of the 1DsIII makes it seem that we've been ripped off from the start really... Canon didn't NEED to make the price that high, but they did... Not unheard of in the industry, but really. I feel more hurt about that then anything else so far.
EDIT: Further... When I say I feel hurt... If say they'd honestly couldn't produce it for less then what they're asking for then fair enough... but it's clear now that the margin on the 1DsIII is massive... I have no doubt we'll be seeing some massive discounts for the 1DsIII potential customers soon.
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EDIT: Further... When I say I feel hurt... If say they'd honestly couldn't produce it for less then what they're asking for then fair enough... but it's clear now that the margin on the 1DsIII is massive... I have no doubt we'll be seeing some massive discounts for the 1DsIII potential customers soon.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=222765\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think that any economist will tell you that pricing of a product is not just about working out what is a reasonable profit margin after deducting development and manufacturing costs, and retailers mark-ups, but it's also about getting whatever you think the market will pay.
We simply don't know what the actual costs are in bringing the 1Ds3 to market. For all I know (and probably all everyone else on this forum knows) Canon might not be making any net profit at all from the 1Ds3. Perhaps they are simply using it as a flagship model to enhance their reputation, accepting that all profits will be made on other cameras.
The situation might be along the lines....."This is what we can do. It's the best 35mm DSLR we can make. If we charge you 8 grand, we break even. If we charge you less, we lose money. If we charge you more, we lose money because sales will be less and some of you will opt for an MFDB system."
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Dropped one of my DsIII's off my shoulder onto cement the other day and it's fine and the 35 1.4 needed a little tweek in the lens mount.
I had both back in 24 hours.
What's that worth ?
hard to say, but if nothing else the 1 series are tough..
The thing about the new 5 that has me most curious is the high ISO quality, if it's a lot better than the III's I might get one for low light stuff.
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Dropped one of my DsIII's off my shoulder onto cement the other day and it's fine and the 35 1.4 needed a little tweek in the lens mount.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=222812\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That's worth a lot. I'm usually very careful handling cameras, but on one occasion I dropped my Sigma 15-30 on a rock-strewn rainforest floor from waist height and watched with dismay as it clattered down a slope before coming to rest about 10 metres away.
I couldn't chase after it because I was in the process of changing lenses, holding a lens in one hand and camera body in the other.
I just assumed the lens would be a write-off. As I walked down the slope to retrieve it, I was thinking, 'there's goes a $1,000, and no more wide-angle shots for me on this trip'.
Was I surprised to find that the lens seemed completely undamaged, apart from a few scuff marks on the casing. I'm still using it years after that accident.
When accidents like that happen, it's not just the cost of repair or the replacement cost of the item that's significant, but the inconvenience, time wasted and other related costs.
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I also got caught out in the rain while shoting a fishing story up a remote valley and my DsIII and 16-35 got totally soaked over a long period and is to this day both are fine.
On the other hand a friend of mine got stuck in quicksand on a New Zealand river while we were fishing (true story ) and his 5D got half dunked.
It lasted another couple weeks with some weird bugs and then was replaced under insurance, he had trouble shooting the rest of the trip.
Again, hard to put a price on this stuff, but if a 1DsIII is 2 and half times the price of a new 5D it might go some way towards peace of mind for the money saved..
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1 question and 1 comment..
question: the 5d MK II is going to have the digic 4 processor vs a digic 3 in the 1dsmkIII, should this make any difference in actual image quality, or is that just the speed the image is written...?
comment: obviously for the people who need the advantages of the 1dsMkIII the camera will be there, but i dont feel like 1/250th of a flash sync vs 1/200th is that big of a deal, thats 1/3 of a stop. i personally use pocket wizards to fire my strobes, [profoto] and you cant have those sync on ANY canon faster then 200, and there is NO way im gonna hard sync to my packs.. So for someone that shoots only portraits, a weather proof body dosent really interest me in the difference in price as if its raining/snowing outside, i doubt my subjects are gonna be down for their portrait to be made in those conditions.. nor do i need any fancy auto focusing, but thats for my specific style of shooting and im sure if you're shooting wildlife or kids running around like chickens with their heads cut off,its a whole different story..
for me personally i just need a better file then what the current 5D has to offer, i've been using the markIIIds for the past 2 months on all of my shoots and the files are perfect for what i need, so if i can get the same file quality at more then 1/2 the price, this is tempting...
to play devils advocate, as a professional editorial photographer such as myself, you can bill more for the 1dsmkIII camera, at $500/shoot it should only take 2, possibly 3 months to pay off, and then after that, its making you more money then the rental fee for the 5dmkII... decisions decisions..
update: thats battery grip has no option to be bought without the wifi in it, so that'll probably cost another 800-1k, sorta lame they arent going to offer a grip with the fancy wifi..
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=222634\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think your wrong in your statement as I use a 1DsMII at 250/th with profoto and pocket wizards and never have had a problem... get the Multi Max's you will be able to shoot at higher sync.
I even shoot at 320/th sometimes and siim the sides where the black starts coming in..
Snook
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I think your wrong in your statement as I use a 1DsMII at 250/th with profoto and pocket wizards and never have had a problem... get the Multi Max's you will be able to shoot at higher sync.
I even shoot at 320/th sometimes and siim the sides where the black starts coming in..
Snook
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i dont think wrong is the correct wording, but thats getting into semantics. yeah you can get a mutli max for $100 more then a transceiver, and you can push your sync speed to 320th but thats still only 1/3 of a stop faster. with that same theory you can put the mutli max on said 5dmkII and probably get it up to 250th of a sec. In my experience of shooting with an RZ that syncs at 400th [2/3s stops faster then 250th] the possibility of getting motion blur with strobe in bright daylight is still possible, but i am also OK with that. like i said in the original post, the people that'll need the mark III for the few intrinsic qualities it has over the 5dmkII im sure the price jump would totally be worth it, for someone just needs a richer file then what the current 5d has to offer but is OK with the 5d's functionalities, i think its a no brainer.
i literally bought the mkIII 5 days before the 5dmkII came out, was shooting my 2nd assignment with it the day the 5dmkII was announced, i called the place where i got it, and they let me return it full refund and are just put it in their rental dept. with that said, i think the mkIII is an amazing camera. and if the 5dmkII was say 18 mexapixels, and not 21, i would have kept the mkIII
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Canon SHOULD reduce the 1Ds mk3 price to around $5500...
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Canon SHOULD reduce the 1Ds mk3 price to around $5500...
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That now appears to be the going price in the used market for a good copy with an occasional dip below this price. I suspect a drop to around $4500, my price point for purchase, can be expected once 5d2 is out.
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Canon SHOULD reduce the 1Ds mk3 price to around $5500...
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I actually don't think they should or will [at least in the short term].
Mostly because its a flagship product - their statement piece as it were, that includes an already documented list of items not on the 5DMKII. Yes, the 5DMKII shoots video, but thats an aside and really not a deal breaker for someone considering a MK3 purchase.
Buying a flaship product always comes at a premium, wether its a car, computer [ala mac pro], watch, whatever. You always pay significantly more for a flagship model. And you don't always get that extra cost in value add.
Thats just life.
But for those who need or want the offerings included in the 1DSMK3 its there at its flagship price.
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Dropped one of my DsIII's off my shoulder onto cement the other day and it's fine and the 35 1.4 needed a little tweek in the lens mount.
I had both back in 24 hours.
What's that worth ?
hard to say, but if nothing else the 1 series are tough..
The thing about the new 5 that has me most curious is the high ISO quality, if it's a lot better than the III's I might get one for low light stuff.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=222812\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The 5d mk2 sounds like an ideal immediate solution for my current photographic needs but the one thing that puts me off buying one is how tough is it?
My 1d mk3 has been dropped twice. First time I dropped it and it just bounced, no problems at all. Second time my wife dropped it from nearly 2 metres high and again the body bounced, no problems at all. Killed the 24-105 lens I had attached though, it fell apart and will no longer autofocus after screwing it back together.
If I was sure the 5d mk2 is wife-proof I'd probably get one.
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I think nothing in the world is wife-proof
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I also got caught out in the rain while shoting a fishing story up a remote valley and my DsIII and 16-35 got totally soaked over a long period and is to this day both are fine.
On the other hand a friend of mine got stuck in quicksand on a New Zealand river while we were fishing (true story ) and his 5D got half dunked.
It lasted another couple weeks with some weird bugs and then was replaced under insurance, he had trouble shooting the rest of the trip.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=222853\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
A more relevant comparison would have been if your mate had had problems after using in rain when you didn't. The 1Ds may well have been just glitchy if half dunked as well.
Why not test this? If it's as good as you say half dunk it in quicksand/water and you'll have no problems.
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As regards dropping camera equipment on hard surfaces, I should add although I'm still using my Sigma 15-30 several years later, after dropping it in the rainforest whilst changing lenses, I had to send the lens in for repair recently because the diaphragm got stuck wide open, resulting in serious everexposure at F16. This was a fault which developed gradually. The first indication that something was wrong became apparent when auto-bracketing exposures in TV mode. Mysteriously, all shots would have equal exposure at different apertures.
The point I'm making is, although a camera might appear to be functioning well immediately after an accident, the less robust camera might be weakened in such a way that a fault appears some time later, perhaps years later, that is directly related to that accident.
One might dunk both the 5D2 and 1Ds3 in water for the same period of time and find that both cameras appear to work perfectly well afterwards. However, it might be the case that the 5D2 lets in a tiny amount of water around the shutter button (for example) that has no immediate effect on the camera's performance, but causes some slight corrosion before it dries. That weakened component, due to corrosion, might malfunction years down the track, or perhaps only months later.
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"Dropping the camera stories" don't really prove anything about the durability of the camera (anecdotal and too many variables). I dropped a *Rebel XTi* out of a sling pack (higher than waist high on a 6'2" body) and it hit a solid slate floor. No problem, other than a broken filter.
That's one tough camera!
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The point I'm making is, although a camera might appear to be functioning well immediately after an accident, the less robust camera might be weakened in such a way that a fault appears some time later, perhaps years later, that is directly related to that accident.
So true. And by the time the problem shows up, a person will probably have no connection left to the earlier accident.
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In terms of the practical differences betewen the chips in the 1Ds3 & 5D2:
It has been said by two Canon officials (chuck westfall and some other dude in the dpr interview that the 5D2 chip will be superior in that it will have 2-4 stops better noise characteriistics, and it will also have better D.R.
So, I have put a few 5D2 bodies on order ;-)
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I think that any economist will tell you that pricing of a product is not just about working out what is a reasonable profit margin after deducting development and manufacturing costs, and retailers mark-ups, but it's also about getting whatever you think the market will pay.
We simply don't know what the actual costs are in bringing the 1Ds3 to market. For all I know (and probably all everyone else on this forum knows) Canon might not be making any net profit at all from the 1Ds3. Perhaps they are simply using it as a flagship model to enhance their reputation, accepting that all profits will be made on other cameras.
The situation might be along the lines....."This is what we can do. It's the best 35mm DSLR we can make. If we charge you 8 grand, we break even. If we charge you less, we lose money. If we charge you more, we lose money because sales will be less and some of you will opt for an MFDB system."
Correct.
The economist will also say that P&L may cross product lines. That is, R&D dollars may be initially sunk into the flagship product line and the resulting technology may later be rolled down to lower-cost product lines. The flagship product line may have to carry the weight of the R&D expenditures initially because it is only those sales paying for the R&D prior to rolling it down in subsequent model years. The managers must account for P&L on quarterly and yearly reporting cycles. This may be one reason for Nikon's introducing its flagship D3 at a lower cost and then rolling most of the technology down to the D700 rather quickly.
The R&D must be recovered somewhere, at some time. Pay me now or pay me later.
Bruce
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In terms of the practical differences betewen the chips in the 1Ds3 & 5D2:
It has been said by two Canon officials (chuck westfall and some other dude in the dpr interview that the 5D2 chip will be superior in that it will have 2-4 stops better noise characteriistics, and it will also have better D.R.
So, I have put a few 5D2 bodies on order ;-)
On that note , I kept my 1ds2 as I 'm still struggling to see huge differences between it and the mk 3 up to 800asa, beyond there yes the files are an improvement. A little more resolution, only with the best lenses, a little more colour depth but a fraction less DR straight out of the camera( lower iso's), much bigger files that slow up my work flow on some jobs and I am still learning all the features on it six months later - I just couldn't find the switch card setting in the function button the other day, slightly distracted( how many button pushes is that again?) as I was hanging out of a helicopter at 1000 feet. Had to switch back to the mk2. In he studio the supremely annoying quirk of the Mk3 is not having all those 45 focus points available when trying to focus on a particular part of the image - something you could take for granted with the mk 2, but for sports and the like I bet the focussing is fabuous.
I think Canon pushed the boat out with the Mk2 and it was a hard act to follow ( I haven't owned the 5d as I need pro quality bodies though its a great camera ). I'm generally pleased with it even if it sounds like I'm not - and I made so much money with the mk2 it was really a no brainer to buy the mk 3, but a MF alternative it isn't ( yet) - the colour and noise characteristics aren't quite there yet ( although the colour is very, very close).
Digic 4 will have to be some thing else again to create much of a gulf from either of these cameras.
One thing is for certain though , the movie world is getting quietly excited about the possibilities of the 5D2 35mm size high quality video imaging? Cnaon will sell a truckload on that basis alone
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The 5d mk2 sounds like an ideal immediate solution for my current photographic needs but the one thing that puts me off buying one is how tough is it?
My 1d mk3 has been dropped twice. First time I dropped it and it just bounced, no problems at all. Second time my wife dropped it from nearly 2 metres high and again the body bounced, no problems at all. Killed the 24-105 lens I had attached though, it fell apart and will no longer autofocus after screwing it back together.
If I was sure the 5d mk2 is wife-proof I'd probably get one.
Yeah, I dropped my 1Ds2 once (bag handles broke), it just bounced. Literally. Went on working, no issues.
On the other hand, I think the used 5DMk1 will soon drop to $1 at which point it'll be a travel point and shoot
Edmund