Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: JDBFreeheel on September 05, 2008, 01:05:36 pm
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Decidedly a rumor, but this is certainly interesting, given the new big sensors/DBs/Camera systems that have already been announced by Hassy, Phase, and Sinar.
Basics: Rumors that are starting to be substantiated are suggesting a Mamiya 6-like digital rangefinder with a 41-48mp sensor that could possibly use existing Nikon glass...
http://gizmodo.com/5045897/nikon-41+megapi...tal-rangefinder (http://gizmodo.com/5045897/nikon-41+megapixel-mx-format-sensor-for-digital-rangefinder)
At the very least, I'm interested...but that would be one mighty expensive rangefinder...I know lots of folks who thought $6K for the Leica digital rangefinder system (albeit, not MF) was too pricey.
-Josh
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that would be amazing since I have $25K tied up in nikon gear.
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Wow a possible 48mm x 48mm sensor! Could I have that for my Rollei 6008 AF please!
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Basics: Rumors that are starting to be substantiated are suggesting a Mamiya 6-like digital rangefinder with a 41-48mp sensor that could possibly use existing Nikon glass...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219659\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
As the article says, you'll need all new glass to take advantage of the sensor size. Using 35mm lenses will mean a lot of cropping. An expensive waste. You'd be better off with a D3.
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As the article says, you'll need all new glass to take advantage of the sensor size. Using 35mm lenses will mean a lot of cropping. An expensive waste. You'd be better off with a D3.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219685\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This is all silly commentary (including my own) because this is just a rumor, but do you really think a company the size of Nikon would come out with a new camera systems and not have the lenses in place?
And even if it required new lenses, you know they'd be 1/2 the price of standard medium format.
JR
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This is all silly commentary (including my own) because this is just a rumor, but do you really think a company the size of Nikon would come out with a new camera systems and not have the lenses in place?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219692\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That's not what I said. I'm just trying to calm down those who seem excited because they have a lot of 35mm Nikon lenses already.
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That's not what I said. I'm just trying to calm down those who seem excited because they have a lot of 35mm Nikon lenses already.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219693\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Gotta luv ya FotZ cause your all about keeping this part of the forum pure to medium format.
Weird thing all medium format digital is 645 which as a film format was probably some marketing guys idea to save on film costs.
Let's be realistic, 645, 35mm whatever, it's just a cut out hole on the back of a camera, but given this, I'd love to see Nikon or Canon come out with a "medium format" camera, whatever medium format is anymore.
That'd shake it all up.
JR
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so now there is a nikon rumor as well as the leica rumor in the same direction....
the whole idea af 35mm, MF and such was based on the film formats, which had to be a certain size so i could buy my consumables anywhere in the world...it is really time that the big companies leave this behind....of course everybody wants to hang on to their glass but at one point nikon and canon have to take the plunge.....how many pixels can you cram onto 35mm format and as we see with 22mpix, we need new lenses anyway because the "older, lesser" designs sometimes can't keep up....
i still think it will be a while before we see a totally new system...which means maybe by next year:)
the idea of a 48x48mm RANGEFINDER is amazing but completely crazy....at least for nikon....leica might be able to get away with something like that but for this would be for nikon what the phaeton was for VW.....great but nobody will pay the price....
anyway i am always for bigger sensors even if they are only rumored.....i think i remember a canon rumor 2?3? years ago.....the dsII was supposed to be a larger then 35mm sensor with all new glass....
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the idea of a 48x48mm RANGEFINDER is amazing but completely crazy....at least for nikon....leica might be able to get away with something like that but for this would be for nikon what the phaeton was for VW.....great but nobody will pay the price....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219701\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Might not be so completely crazy. I reckon there is a market for such a camera and they'd sell quite a few. Heck there are loads of people paying 30k for top end MF digital cameras now and taking snaps with them when all they really need is a Canon 450. I don't think this rumour is as crazy as it seems.
Interesting times. I bet one or two MFDB makers are getting a bit twitchy.
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It sounds like a great idea. James is right, it would shake them up. I think they need a good shaking considering some of the stupid stuff they do. The only constant is change as they say.
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Might not be so completely crazy. I reckon there is a market for such a camera and they'd sell quite a few. Heck there are loads of people paying 30k for top end MF digital cameras now and taking snaps with them when all they really need is a Canon 450. I don't think this rumour is as crazy as it seems.
Interesting times. I bet one or two MFDB makers are getting a bit twitchy.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219706\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
don't get me wrong...i would get one in a heartbeat....i think you are referring to the "dentists" and i have my doubts that they would spend 30000 on a nikon (phaeton-VW)....they want the hasselblad or leica around their neck when they go on their walks....which i think is great btw....and which is why i think the Hy6/Afi sucks....it should say rolleiflex on there.....
it all goes along with what james keeps saying that the tool/camera has to make you feel good about using it.....absolutely nothing wrong with that at all....but for me the last nikon/canon that did that was the F3.....and i really think the dsIII is great but it does not give me (or the people on the other end) the same .....excitement (for lack of a better word) then the m8 or the gx680 or 690....
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Just ranting, but if this is true it probably is a direct consequence of the strenght of the Euro compared to the Yen/$.
- Most of the competitors are European OEMs whose price have gone up 1.5 times in 4 years (although they source their sensor, the most expensive component of the back, from the $ area at pretty much constant prices...),
- It is 1.5 tougher for Japanese and US customers to buy these European monsters than it was 4 years ago,
- EU, probably the largest market for such backs is 1.5 more profitable for a Japanese company than it was 4 years ago... that leaves a lot of room for experimentation.
I hope that this very concrete example will help make some folks in Europe/US understand as a whole that the current situation is mostly benefiting Japanese companies... EU needs to invest very heavily in North America to re-establish the right balance. Somebody, buy Apple cash tomorrow please.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Oh, I really hope I'm not just dreaming this. I wonder if they'll release a version of it in a V-mount back? Imagine, a 48mm x 48mm square sensor for your V-mount body, with good usable ISO 6400? OK, ok, no more mad speculation!
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I don't think this will happen. it's not in alignment with nikon's marketing strategies. Look at their history and they have never ran in a MP race. They are the same company that not 3 years ago was selling a 4mp flagship while everyone else ran with 10+mp
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Guys don't be so conservative, it's always easy to enlarge the image circle and increase the focal length at the same time----you just add a concave lens as an adaptor between body and lens. Simple physics.
As an example, look at hassel's TS adaptor.
regards,
Dustblue
PS I'll be really excited if Nikon do so as many other guys who have lots of nikon lenses...
As the article says, you'll need all new glass to take advantage of the sensor size. Using 35mm lenses will mean a lot of cropping. An expensive waste. You'd be better off with a D3.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219685\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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don't get me wrong...i would get one in a heartbeat....i think you are referring to the "dentists" and i have my doubts that they would spend 30000 on a nikon (phaeton-VW)....they want the hasselblad or leica around their neck when they go on their walks....which i think is great btw....and which is why i think the Hy6/Afi sucks....it should say rolleiflex on there.....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219714\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well just imagine a Mamiya 6 rangefinder body with the Nikon D3 screen on the back. A double sized D3 sensor and a bunch of lightweight lenses. Priced well under the current MFDB's that are being offered by everyone. Ideal for landscape, wedding, editorial, and reportage work.
Would you buy one ? If they kept the price at the right level they'd sell loads.
Form a queue here.
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Well just imagine a Mamiya 6 rangefinder body with the Nikon D3 screen on the back. A double sized D3 sensor and a bunch of lightweight lenses. Priced well under the current MFDB's that are being offered by everyone. Ideal for landscape, wedding, editorial, and reportage work.
Would you buy one ? If they kept the price at the right level they'd sell loads.
Form a queue here.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219808\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
and what do you mean by riught price point ? 20k ?
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and what do you mean by riught price point ? 20k ?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219811\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Not so long ago photographers would always expect to pay more for a medium format camera kit over a 35mm one.
Cameras such as the Mamiya 6 and 7 series were used in their droves because of what they offered over a 35mm camera for particular uses such as travel, reportage, etc, etc...I would not expect it to be any different today and would certainly expect to pay more for a top medium format rangefinder system than a top 35mm slr camera system...wether digital or film.
These cameras were popular for all the right reasons and a similar camera, but using digital instead of film, would be as usefull a tool today as it was before.
Certainly it was easier financially to have many different cameras systems in the time of film and these days due to cost people seem to strive more for a one camera does all solution but different applications still need different tools.
What would basically be a digital Mamiya 6 that allows the user to shoot stock and travel and reportage and large print fine art in those same locations all in the same body is a dream come true tool of the digital age for many.
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Not so long ago photographers would always expect to pay more for a medium format camera kit over a 35mm one.
Cameras such as the Mamiya 6 and 7 series were used in their droves because of what they offered over a 35mm camera for particular uses such as travel, reportage, etc, etc...I would not expect it to be any different today and would certainly expect to pay more for a top medium format rangefinder system than a top 35mm slr camera system...wether digital or film.
These cameras were popular for all the right reasons and a similar camera, but using digital instead of film, would be as usefull a tool today as it was before.
Certainly it was easier financially to have many different cameras systems in the time of film and these days due to cost people seem to strive more for a one camera does all solution but different applications still need different tools.
What would basically be a digital Mamiya 6 that allows the user to shoot stock and travel and reportage and large print fine art in those same locations all in the same body is a dream come true tool of the digital age for many.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219816\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If they just doubled the D3 sensor it would be 645 size wouldn't it?
It wouldn't need to be that big either, the Fuji 645 cameras are really compact and nice to shoot. More importantly if the price was below 10k dollars the camera would sell well. If Nikon doesn't do it somebody else will, and soon I hope.
The MF digital world needs a shake up. The sooner the better as far as I'm concerned.
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someone not registered here just sent me the following info on older nikon lenses to pass on to the forum:
"Nikon lenses that were used on the early Bronica EC models of medium format.
Almost all Nikkor lenses for Zenza Bronica is listed.
NIKKOR-D 40mm F4
NIKKOR-H 50mm F3.5
NIKKOR-O 50mm F2.8
NIKKOR-P 75mm F2.8
NIKKOR-Q 105mm F3.5LS
NIKKOR-Q 135mm F3.5
NIKKOR-P 200mm F4 (early)
NIKKOR-P 200mm F4 (later)
NIKKOR-P 600mm F5.6"
so the history is there...but of course this is just rumour but no harm in a bit of idle speculation!
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someone not registered here just sent me the following info on older nikon lenses to pass on to the forum:
"Nikon lenses that were used on the early Bronica EC models of medium format.
Almost all Nikkor lenses for Zenza Bronica is listed.
NIKKOR-D 40mm F4
NIKKOR-H 50mm F3.5
NIKKOR-O 50mm F2.8
NIKKOR-P 75mm F2.8
NIKKOR-Q 105mm F3.5LS
NIKKOR-Q 135mm F3.5
NIKKOR-P 200mm F4 (early)
NIKKOR-P 200mm F4 (later)
NIKKOR-P 600mm F5.6"
so the history is there...but of course this is just rumour but no harm in a bit of idle speculation!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219825\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I agree it's just a rumour and maybe silly speculation, but perhaps somebody from Nikon reads this forum and will get a few ideas. Just maybe...
These lenses are superb, I know I use a few on my old Bronica bodies. They easily match my Hasselblad Zeiss lenses and out perform them in one or two instances.
For sure this could be a dream camera for quite a few people.
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One question, why would Nikon bring out anything larger than the current 24x36? Even 12MP is already enough for the things 99% of all people use it for (including myself). 24MP is nice and when I can get it I will but also tremendous overkill. Why would Nikon start competing with an extremely small niche market when it also means really substantial investments to get there? To earn what? Part of a 10K units market??
I would believe a rumour that Nikon is stepping into camera phones before I believe a rumour of a Nikon MF (whatever that may be) adventure. Now camera phones (PDA like stuff) that is an interesting chunk of market for the likes of Canon & Nikon, IMO naturally.
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One question, why would Nikon bring out anything larger than the current 24x36? Even 12MP is already enough for the things 99% of all people use it for (including myself). 24MP is nice and when I can get it I will but also tremendous overkill. Why would Nikon start competing with an extremely small niche market when it also means really substantial investments to get there? To earn what? Part of a 10K units market??
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219839\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Who knows if this or other rumors will become reality. However, I think the idea would be that Nikon would try to break into this market and make it more appealing to a broader market. Not many people out there say, "Hmmm, I think I want to buy a $20K-30K camera system from Phase One." They don't know anything about Phase One, or Sinar, or Leaf; that's left to pros and semi-pros in a niche market. However, if Nikon introduced a system and marketed it as "Bigger than 'full' format but still affordable for working pros," (in between current pro 35mm cameras and MFDBs in terms of price) I think they could lure current pros who have stayed in the 35mm realm for a number of reasons, as well as lure semi pros and even well-heeled amateurs into this new system, thus raising the 10K unit market to a 50-100K market.
It's the whole "dentist" argument. They don't need it, not many do, but boy would they like to show it off to friends. In reality, most amateurs don't need the D300, let alone the D700 or D3. But they buy it, instead of the D40/D60/D80 that would serve them quite well, still, in huge numbers. I can see the name recognition of Nikon, along with some 35mm-like advancements to lure many people into our niche market.
Josh
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One question, why would Nikon bring out anything larger than the current 24x36? Even 12MP is already enough for the things 99% of all people use it for (including myself). 24MP is nice and when I can get it I will but also tremendous overkill. Why would Nikon start competing with an extremely small niche market when it also means really substantial investments to get there? To earn what? Part of a 10K units market??
I would believe a rumour that Nikon is stepping into camera phones before I believe a rumour of a Nikon MF (whatever that may be) adventure. Now camera phones (PDA like stuff) that is an interesting chunk of market for the likes of Canon & Nikon, IMO naturally.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219839\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm sure the majority of Wedding Photographers still use MF gear. I know a few that still use MF film because of the cost of the gear and the limitations of the MFDB's. The market for this so called hypothetical MF Nikon is not small by any means. The right product at the right price and they would sell loads, and expand MF photography once more.
We've had this MF versus 35mm over and over again.The MF look is very nice for certain things. For too long now the MFDB makers have given us what they think we need rather than what we want. Maybe things will change soon.
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also, if you use zoom lenses from a FX on a MX, you are all set.
I shoot my DX lenses on my FX camera all the time.
(my 17-55 is my most versatile lens), you just get vignetting.
http://www.returntothepit.com/rttppics/bane030_404404.jpg (http://www.returntothepit.com/rttppics/bane030_404404.jpg)
the vingetting works sometimes:
http://www.returntothepit.com/rttppics/bane027_404401.jpg (http://www.returntothepit.com/rttppics/bane027_404401.jpg)
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I'm sure the majority of Wedding Photographers still use MF gear. I know a few that still use MF film because of the cost of the gear and the limitations of the MFDB's.
Nope. Most wedding shooters are using DSLRs for weddings. Most weddings aren't profitable enough to justify the expense of MFDB--many wedding shooters aren't even using top-tier DSLRs such as Canon 1-series because the lower-level cameras are increasingly capable of getting the shot in dimly-lit churches with little if any loss of image quality. Shooting events in dimly-lit indoor settings in one niche where DSLRs generally outperform MF--higher usable ISO, faster and more accurate autofocus, and the ability to shoot more nimbly with less gear means a higher ratio of keepers, as less setup and teardown time for the shoot.
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Nope. Most wedding shooters are using DSLRs for weddings.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219862\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Not to mention, they're all shooting JPGs, so they can turn the jobs faster. How many MF backs can you shoot a JPG-only wedding with?
They shoot; they throw away the bad ones; they upload them; and they move on.
Weddings seem perfect for a Nikon D3 to me. Set it on JPG, and on ASA One Zillion, and get to work printing hundred dollar bills.
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Not to mention, they're all shooting JPGs, so they can turn the jobs faster. How many MF backs can you shoot a JPG-only wedding with?
They shoot; they throw away the bad ones; they upload them; and they move on.
Weddings seem perfect for a Nikon D3 to me. Set it on JPG, and on ASA One Zillion, and get to work printing hundred dollar bills.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219867\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
that's how I shoot non-posed weddings. it's funny how you can shoot all pictures that you personally hate and they make the family/bride cry when you put them in a book.
MF is great for the 15 shot posed wedding party shots.
Maybe the stuff that you do before the wedding at their houses.
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And if it could use my existing Mamiya 7 lenses, I would write the check right now.
What would basically be a digital Mamiya 6 that allows the user to shoot stock and travel and reportage and large print fine art in those same locations all in the same body is a dream come true tool of the digital age for many.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219816\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Not to mention, they're all shooting JPGs, so they can turn the jobs faster. How many MF backs can you shoot a JPG-only wedding with?
They shoot; they throw away the bad ones; they upload them; and they move on.
Weddings seem perfect for a Nikon D3 to me. Set it on JPG, and on ASA One Zillion, and get to work printing hundred dollar bills.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219867\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
uh... nope again. No one at the high end shoots all jpeg any more (even Jeff Ascough has been RAW for a few years now). Everyone shoots raw (well 99%), hence the rise of lightroom, photomechanic, et al.
BUT... even shooting RAW, most still shoot several thousand exposures in a day...so wedding pros (successful ones) have devised RAW workflows that move along very quickly and efficiently. The d3/d700 are, indeed, currently the bigtime wedding cams and 12mp is just about perfect for anything except large group formals (but still adequate).
Lighting conditions are too much of a wild card in high quality wedding work... essentially everyone shoots raw.