Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: robert zimmerman on July 30, 2008, 04:29:20 am
-
Just trying to make the general consensus clear for the makers of the next round of backs...
-
Perhaps it would be even better with multiple selections?
-
Perhaps it would be even better with multiple selections?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211681\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No doubt about it. I'm not a good poll taker, just trying to see what people here want most.
-
don't forget about a really usable live video (in case phase is listening)
-
What about better long exposure performance!
-
Okay,
long exposure performance and better live view voters...sorry!
-
high ISO performance equivalent to 35mm sensors and square frame 20-30mp
-
And better color.
And why doesn't anyone support to shoot an actual colorchecker chart instead of the greycard to allow REAL calibration for every light setting. Just imagine if you could create one shot with the colorchecker and then all following pics in the same light would have accurate color.
EFFORTLESS. (Or same effort as shooting a greycard.)
MFDB Color and color profiles out of the back is still a subject that disappoints clients and myself. If you don't remember the color you have a hard time adjusting it right.
With the colorchecker procedure you would just fix one frame and the rest of the set you just drop the settings. The software could even recognize colorchecker charts and automatically apply the corrections to the following pics until it recognizes the next color checker. In the worst case you just undo the auto-corrections.
WHERE IS THE INNOVATION? Smaller pixels? More pixels? We have enough resolution. Work on pixel and color quality.
-
I voted for improved screen, but by that I meant to be able to check focus / live view @100% on the back. a big reason so many folks shoot tethered is simply to do that, and enabling this feature on a great sharp screen would give location shoots the confidence of knowing you've nailed it.
after that its better high ISO's
got zero interest in a square format myself, but y.m.m.v.
-
Live view.
-
Lightroom 2 has something like this.
And better color.
And why doesn't anyone support to shoot an actual colorchecker chart instead of the greycard to allow REAL calibration for every light setting. Just imagine if you could create one shot with the colorchecker and then all following pics in the same light would have accurate color.
EFFORTLESS. (Or same effort as shooting a greycard.)
MFDB Color and color profiles out of the back is still a subject that disappoints clients and myself. If you don't remember the color you have a hard time adjusting it right.
With the colorchecker procedure you would just fix one frame and the rest of the set you just drop the settings. The software could even recognize colorchecker charts and automatically apply the corrections to the following pics until it recognizes the next color checker. In the worst case you just undo the auto-corrections.
WHERE IS THE INNOVATION? Smaller pixels? More pixels? We have enough resolution. Work on pixel and color quality.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211718\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
Live view.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211759\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Live View here too.
Then DNG
Tie between in camera jpg's and wireless to a screen (which might require the jpg's).
-
One word:
Foveon
Darn it - gt off your butts already and make a DB!
-
Another one voting for a better, faster, sharper live view and also a Foveon or similar system, so that we gain in colour accuracy and edge integrity. Oh and ISO performance to equal the Nikons and Canons. The rotating sensor at the flick of a button should now become standard.
No more to the pixel race.
-
For me the most important attributes would be much better long exposure quality and better per- pixel quality. Better colorhandling and battery capacity would be other important areas for improvement.
-
I vote for Higher ISO and faster shooting rates.
-
Foveon tech or something close that had as good or better live view than leaf, without it being over 30mp. Also bigger isnt always better, the smaller 33x44 chips get more movement with an image circle, so options are good on chip size if foveon could ever do this.
Another thing that would open up flood gates for leaf and and phase is to reintroduce the valeo and h series backs. A lot of studio shooters out there would buy a new h25 or valeo 22 if they were priced under 10k and had a 3 year warranty ( WITHOUT HAVING TO PAY FOR IT)
-
Sinar eXposure does it, Colour Calibration with a colour checker chart: 24, DC or SG.
Best regards,
Thierry
And better color.
And why doesn't anyone support to shoot an actual colorchecker chart instead of the greycard to allow REAL calibration for every light setting. Just imagine if you could create one shot with the colorchecker and then all following pics in the same light would have accurate color.
EFFORTLESS. (Or same effort as shooting a greycard.)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211718\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[attachment=7721:attachment][attachment=7722:attachment][attachment=7723:attachm
ent]
-
Put me down for:
1. High resolution LCD
2. High resolution LCD
3. Complete compatibility with photoshop
Of lesser importance
Faster frame rate
Higher ISO
Wireless
Full frame 645
No need/desire for more pixels here. I'm a fashion/commercial/lifestyle shooter for what it's worth.
John
-
Put me down for:
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212191\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think this straw poll is interesting. 67% of the top three things asked for are not addresed by the latest annoucements of medium format cameras.
1. Higher iso. No reason to comment because nobody's offering as of this date.
2. Better LCD. See #1. (Also not 4% better) In fact the rule is unless somebody makes an LCD as good as a 4 year old cell phone, they don't get to call it an LCD preview, they must call it an LCD preview guess).
3. 30mp FF sensor under $30,000. Nobody in the digital world is going to offer twice the product for 1/2 the price. Well except Apple with their I-phone, I-mac, I-everything, Nikon and the D700, Sandisk, Lexar, Lacie, Samsung, . . .
JR
P.S. The one catagory I think should be added is universal mounts. Not just universal as per the contractural arrangement with the camera, sensor manufacturer, but really universal mounts where any back goes on any camera with just a click.
Second catagory I would like to see in medium format is no secret moose club handshakes.
Dont lock customers out from buying anything. This is silly and hasselblad started it. It may temporarily increase a makers bottom line, but long term it will kill off the whole format. Imagine making a new Rolliflex but it only work with AGFA film, or a Hasselblad that only worked with Kodak negative film and a "full frame" film that only worked in a Mamiya back.
Stop it, before we all go crazy.
Third catagory, no more using the term Full Frame unless the caputre area of the sensor covers the FULL FRAME of the camera.
Fourth. Some kind of ASA/ISO standard. No more my 400 iso is better than their 800 iso.
Turn it over to UL or Good Housekeeping, or the new consordium for telling the truth in digital advertising. (the TTDA)*
Fifth. Remove the term Value Added. Come on, quit charging for floor mats on $40,000 cars.
Either offer good service or not, either offer a warranty or not, either keep a loner back for every camera or not, but don't say you have a loaner then say, uh well the one Contax loner is in Alaska.
Sixth. Remove the term Support Case. That's not a correct term. The correct term is "The damn things not working case". Man the phones 24/7 so somebody can help you right then and there witth the truth. If more than 75 files crashes the software, tell us. If it gets green streaks in the files, tell us, if it centerfolds tell us, but tell us when we call.
Seventh. Every manufactuer's CEO MUST be required to put on a plastic mustache, change their name and go to 4 cities to buy their cameras and backs from their authorized dealers. They should learn to appreciate the whole medium format buying experience.
(The Sinar CEO just has to go to one city, because they won't find one anywhere with the batteries charged.)
JR
*The TTDA doesn't exist. I dreamed it last night.
-
James,
we understand each other, mostly.
Simply not for your "Seventh"! Don't make a generality out of one particular dealer who does not seem to be at its place (I shall check this out). There are some other dealers out there, serious, knowledgeable and helpful, included in California.
Best regards,
Thierry
Seventh. Every manufactuer's CEO MUST be required to put on a plastic mustache, change their name and go to 4 cities to buy their cameras and backs from their authorized dealers. They should learn to appreciate the whole medium format buying experience.
(The Sinar CEO just has to go to one city, because they won't find one anywhere with the batteries charged.)
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212310\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
James,
we understand each other, mostly.
Simply not for your "Seventh"! Don't make a generality out of one particular dealer who does not seem to be at its place (I shall check this out). There are some other dealers out there, serious, knowledgeable and helpful, included in California.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212423\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Theirry,
Your a good guy and like FotoZ you bleed Sinar Blue, but I'm not making this stuff up, because you can't make up anything this crazy.
I've been into the largest camera store in NY who is a Sinar/BRON dealer and prior to the HY6 saw a Sinar M behind the counter. I asked to see it and wanted to know what it was and they said a digital camera. I asked "where's the digital" part and they said, they have to order the back, but as a Sinar dealer they had to buy one M.
Everybody here that says Sinar is absolutely hidden in the U.S. isn't trying to get you, or Sinar, they're just telling their experience with Sinar Digital Cameras, and if they're like me, there is a lot of stuff they come across they won't say because it would sound hurtful.
Once again your a good guy, care for your product, etc, etc, etc, but show me a dealer where I can walk in, Cash in Hand buy an HY6, Full compliment of lenses, prisms, adapters for other cameras and a Sinar 75 back on the spot.
You may know one, but I've never seen it, though I must admit I don't spend that much time in camera stores, or now as they are called, Value Added Digital Camera Specialty Stores.
Sinar is not alone in this though. It's not easy to just walk in and buy a medium format back and camera of your choice and walk out the door.
Hell, I can drive 11 blocks from where I'm standing right now and buy a bloody Lamborghini.
JR
-
like FotoZ you bleed Sinar Blue
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212431\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
James, I simply correct misinformation as and when it appears about a product I am familiar with, or point it out as an option to people who don't seem to be aware of the products yet. I never have and never would tell people that a Sinar product is automatically the best for them, regardless of their individual needs. Please refrain from making such smears.
-
James, I simply correct misinformation as and when it appears about a product I am familiar with, or point it out as an option to people who don't seem to be aware of the products yet. I never have and never would tell people that a Sinar product is automatically the best for them, regardless of their individual needs. Please refrain from making such smears.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212434\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
How bout' Lamborghini?
JR
-
How bout' Lamborghini?
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212445\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
James, I'm sorry to tell you that I haven't been able to see a functioning Sinar with a charged battery yet. I think they've run out of rotating battery chargers.
Edmund
-
I go for LiveView and Long-Exposure capability!
-
What about better long exposure performance!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211704\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
So you don't have a Phase back then? :-)
-
I see that higher usable ISO is the leading choice..Do the "physics" of MF sensors limit the range of usable ISO?
Steve
-
I'm using a camera with live view every day. It's essential for me.
And only with a technical camera.
Therefore, Sinar is the best for me.
I did use an Hy6 during four-five days. That's a magnificent camera (excepts the colors of the body). But i prefer my prehistorical P2 with the SinarCam and the choice between a lot of lenses.
PdF
-
i would like cheaper prices, which should be possible with higher sale numbers.
and an easier and much better valuated upgrade politic.
i like open systems.
-
This poll has a serious fault. It does not have a "More DR" question.
Does that 10%+ in "None of the above" mean for this? Don't think so. My understanding is that it should the most checked item of all. Oh, I got it. It is so obvious is out of question.
Eduardo
-
I have enough DR (IMO, I have no beef with having too less), if I need more I could exposure bracket in most cases.
My top tick would be a good LCD & longer exposures.
BTW, it is not just the process of buying MFDB which is horrible, I find buying many of the 'non-regular' stuff is horrible. You would not believe how long I have been trying to get a 95mm ND3.0 Heliopan filter. Emails to Heliopan don't get answered, on their site it states you need to order via dealers. I have written at least 5 in several different countries. None of them have replied sofar.
Is there any professional dealer out there that can sell me a 95mm ND3.0 Heliopan? (which also shows immediately why I want longer exposures ).
It seems it is only interesting to sell stuff like D700's/D300's/D3's/1DsIII/etc..., the high volume equipment instead.
-
Thanks to admit this, James.
Thierry
Theirry,
Sinar is not alone in this though. It's not easy to just walk in and buy a medium format back and camera of your choice and walk out the door.
Hell, I can drive 11 blocks from where I'm standing right now and buy a bloody Lamborghini.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212431\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
Hell, I can drive 11 blocks from where I'm standing right now and buy a bloody Lamborghini.
and better yet ... you can actually, depending
on the dealer, take one out for a test drive.
-
James,
I will be frank and honest: I know that we are not the 1st player in the USA, not even the second or the 3rd. I know this, you know this and everybody here knows it as well.
We may not have the glitter and shine (understand marketing) of some other players, rightly or wrongly, admitted as well.
But what I know also, is that we certainly not have the worse after sales support/service and commitment, knowledge and passion of a distributor/dealer in this country. There have been many comments here, by Sinar users, praising not only the product, but also the service and support provided by our distributor or some of its dealers: no need to name them here.
Nor do we have the worse product in terms of IQ, functionality, possibilities and reliability.
In fact, I honestly believe that we have the most extensive and complete system to propose, from cameras to lenses and accessories, up to digital backs.
And I believe also that we have a knowledgeable and committed team at Sinar, a team doing their work with passion and competence, always ready to help our customers, even when off duty.
I wished this to be said. Some posts, comments and negative reports here are IMHO generalized, when there are so many reports showing the contrary as well.
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
Theirry,
Your a good guy and like FotoZ you bleed Sinar Blue, but I'm not making this stuff up, because you can't make up anything this crazy.
Everybody here that says Sinar is absolutely hidden in the U.S. isn't trying to get you, or Sinar, they're just telling their experience with Sinar Digital Cameras, and if they're like me, there is a lot of stuff they come across they won't say because it would sound hurtful.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212431\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
The poll needs more options to vote:
For me in order of importance:
1. Higher ISO, usable FULL RESS ISO1600 would be super
2. better color transistions, it's already much better than a DSLR but still in shadow areas there can be some harsch transistions.
3. full 6x45 resolution or 6x7
4. better screen, like on the DSLR for checking the exposure
5. More dynamic range, 2 extra stops would be nice but not necessary
I don't really care for MP's although 22+ can be nice I'm still very happy with my 22MP.
-
The poll needs more options to vote:
For me in order of importance:
1. Higher ISO, usable FULL RESS ISO1600 would be super
2. better color transistions, it's already much better than a DSLR but still in shadow areas there can be some harsch transistions.
3. full 6x45 resolution or 6x7
4. better screen, like on the DSLR for checking the exposure
5. More dynamic range, 2 extra stops would be nice but not necessary
I don't really care for MP's although 22+ can be nice I'm still very happy with my 22MP.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212726\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The problem with shadow tones comes from the fact that sensor makers choose non-orthogonal filters in order to gain ISO. It's possible that the new Kodak sensor is better here, a prime offender was the Canon 1Ds2
Edmund
Edmund
-
James,
I will be frank and honest: I know that we are not the 1st player in the USA, not even the second or the 3rd. I know this, you know this and everybody here knows it as well.
We may not have the glitter and shine (understand marketing) of some other players, rightly or wrongly, admitted as well.
But what I know also, is that we certainly not have the worse after sales support/service and commitment, knowledge and passion of a distributor/dealer in this country. There have been many comments here, by Sinar users, praising not only the product, but also the service and support provided by our distributor or some of its dealers: no need to name them here.
Nor do we have the worse product in terms of IQ, functionality, possibilities and reliability.
In fact, I honestly believe that we have the most extensive and complete system to propose, from cameras to lenses and accessories, up to digital backs.
And I believe also that we have a knowledgeable and committed team at Sinar, a team doing their work with passion and competence, always ready to help our customers, even when off duty.
I wished this to be said. Some posts, comments and negative reports here are IMHO generalized, when there are so many reports showing the contrary as well.
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212722\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You have a working well-designed camera, a good support team and a good rep called Thierry. You also have defective marketing department and insufficient commercial support. Look at how Hasselblad is putting the focus on making noise, noise, noise, promotions, getting demo cameras out there, making demos, coopting dealers and yes improving their product. I've seen so many Hassy's in shops, I've even seen people using them and shot one several times, I haven't seen a single Sinar in a shop and have never shot one.The only one I ever saw that was said to be working (Paris trade show) was out of battery. Why don't you box half a dozen Hy6 cameras, put them on the shelves on B&H so that when a lawyer or doctor comes in and wants an MF camera they can say "well, we have this Sinar set".
-
interesting results so far - hardy har har...
actually nothing surprising and very much what i expected.
the one thing i was really interested in, was to see if there would be any reaction to this from the dealer/manufacturer side. anything that resembled an answer or explanation that is.
either
a) okay, over 50% of the mf photographers here are interested in better high iso and better lcd's - we've been working on that for a long time but we can't give it to you because ...
or,
we'll get on that asap.
or
c) yes, we knew this already, but we are not the least bit interested in what working photographers want. we think that what is wished for by working photographers using mf cameras on forums is completely irrelevant and has nothing to do with who will actually buy our cameras and what they want.
i would actually be thankful for any statement. but instead it's complete silence coupled with marketing hype on product innovations that most people can't afford or don't need.
why is this industry so concerned with things that are freaking irrelevant for the people who actually need and want to use mfdb and so NOT concerned with the things we need?
why do i have to write emails to reps in london to get answers on questions concerning upgrades, when i'm located in hamburg, germany?
why do i have to take a hour out my day to go to calumet and find out that the firewire cable i ordered was dragged through the shop and stepped on? and then order a firewire cable for my leaf camera from a phase-one rep?
why is service soooooo bad on such a hugely expensive piece of equipment?
why should i invest more money in this kind of service and treatment?
does 50% of the people wanting a better lcd and clean iso 800 mean anything to you people making digital backs? is it even on the priority list?
is anybody listening?
-
does 50% of the people wanting a better lcd and clean iso 800 mean anything to you people making digital backs? is it even on the priority list?
is anybody listening?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212739\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I would love two D3 chips lashed together
I dont think people quite get the MF market
I get the impression that Kodak and Dalsa make sensors for satellites, speed cameras and medical devices and military surveilance
The back makers then buy what chips are on the shelf
So even if the back makers are listening there is nothing they can do until a sensor maker gets pushed towards high ISO by one of thier core markets
Thats my guess
S
-
James,
I will be frank and honest: I know that we are not the 1st player in the USA, not even the second or the 3rd. I know this, you know this and everybody here knows it as well.
We may not have the glitter and shine (understand marketing) of some other players, rightly or wrongly, admitted as well.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212722\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The strange thing is, you have a good product. If you run into a user that has taken the effort and time to learn it, they will say just that. Same with dealers. If you find a good dealer like Steve Hendrix he can put a very positive approach to Sinar. Same with you, you know your product and seem to bend over backwards for the customer.
Atlanta and the Far East are not considered by most people as the center of the world when it comes to photography. New York, LA, London, Paris, maybe Milan are, but anything past that, rightly or wrongly is considered on the fringe.
So, if your not strongly represented in those markets, (once again rightly or wrongly) your missing sales.
I'm based and live in New York, but for the last few weeks have been in our Dallas studio.
Even in this fringe market, I can buy profoto, Arri, Matthews on the spot. Yesterday I bought a 1ds3 in 6 minutes, but to buy a medium format back for my cameras (probably about any camera) would take at least a week of waiting.
Here, I can rent a Phase today, maybe a Leaf as long as it's on a H body, but I doubt seriously if I can demo any hy6 or afi in this market on the day, probably not in a few days.
I do not know the dynamics of the medium format camera business (and don't want to ) but I don't know how anyone can sell product, especially expensive product, unless they can easily get it into the hands of the buyer.
I would think all of the information you get here, positive and negative would be appreciated.
People on this forum (potential customers) have given you a lot of honest information on how difficult it is to find much less buy your product and once again, you seem like a good guy, but I would think the proper response to this would be to answer with a plan on how Sinar will remedy this perception, real or not.
I know 8 photographers this year that have either sold, or attempted to sell their medium format equipment. some because it's a down market, some because they need more useability and some just because they are frustrated with the whole process.
Right now in my inbox I have two e-mails to address on Monday morning where friends want me to help them get a fix with their medium format back issues. I'm not a dealer or a rep or a camera sales person, but they came to me just because I have the e-mails of someone higher up the chain that might get a resolve.
I know you want to put your product in a positive light, (we all want to put ourselves in a positive light), but the best way to do this is to address the issues head on and offer more than your competition.
Being a good guy won't change that. Getting product into rental and on the shelves will.
JR
-
Well, it's August & vacation time for many, hence the quietness.
Also, it's ONLY 6 weeks to go until Photokina,
so I don't expect any manufacturer to fully reveal their cards until then.
-
The back manufacturers care about making money and they are using the same trick as Microsoft which is perpetual insatisfaction - "The next version will be the good one". Nikon and Canon make a good part of the profit from lenses, and you only sell lenses when people are happy with the camera.
Edmund
interesting results so far - hardy har har...
actually nothing surprising and very much what i expected.
the one thing i was really interested in, was to see if there would be any reaction to this from the dealer/manufacturer side. anything that resembled an answer or explanation that is.
either
a) okay, over 50% of the mf photographers here are interested in better high iso and better lcd's - we've been working on that for a long time but we can't give it to you because ...
or,
we'll get on that asap.
or
c) yes, we knew this already, but we are not the least bit interested in what working photographers want. we think that what is wished for by working photographers using mf cameras on forums is completely irrelevant and has nothing to do with who will actually buy our cameras and what they want.
i would actually be thankful for any statement. but instead it's complete silence coupled with marketing hype on product innovations that most people can't afford or don't need.
why is this industry so concerned with things that are freaking irrelevant for the people who actually need and want to use mfdb and so NOT concerned with the things we need?
why do i have to write emails to reps in london to get answers on questions concerning upgrades, when i'm located in hamburg, germany?
why do i have to take a hour out my day to go to calumet and find out that the firewire cable i ordered was dragged through the shop and stepped on? and then order a firewire cable for my leaf camera from a phase-one rep?
why is service soooooo bad on such a hugely expensive piece of equipment?
why should i invest more money in this kind of service and treatment?
does 50% of the people wanting a better lcd and clean iso 800 mean anything to you people making digital backs? is it even on the priority list?
is anybody listening?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212739\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
is anybody listening?
Yes, we hear you, If I had proper answers for you be sure that you would have heard them by now.
However:
111 votes
30 posters (inc. Thierry and myself) that not all own a digital back
57 votes in total for high iso and better screens
2,106 views - this is a fair number but this can also be 111 voters reading 20 times (every other post).
Can go one step further to split the posters into genres (can do this with anonymous voters)
Statistically, to base a product's roadmap on this pole will be unreasonable, to say the least, no matter how much we all here agree on these two mentioned features.
Kipling, Hamburg to Köln by train takes 4 hrs and €30 - hopefully we'll see you there. I took note about your firewire cable issue and am making sure that this farce won't happen again.
BR
Yair
PS I know this post will raise havoc, my helmet is ON....
-
Yair, why not simply give (sell) us what we want ?
Or did your marketing director forget to do a user survey ?
Re. ISO, maybe you have too much light over in Israel? I was shooting snapshots in the Paris street today and down to F5.6. Depth of field ? Ha!
Edmund
-
Yes, we hear you, If I had proper answers for you be sure that you would have heard them by now.
However:
111 votes
30 posters (inc. Thierry and myself) that not all own a digital back
57 votes in total for high iso and better screens
2,106 views - this is a fair number but this can also be 111 voters reading 20 times (every other post).
Can go one step further to split the posters into genres (can do this with anonymous voters)
Statistically, to base a product's roadmap on this pole will be unreasonable, to say the least, no matter how much we all here agree on these two mentioned features.
Kipling, Hamburg to Köln by train takes 4 hrs and €30 - hopefully we'll see you there. I took note about your firewire cable issue and am making sure that this farce won't happen again.
BR
Yair
PS I know this post will raise havoc, my helmet is ON....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212825\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
hi yair,
i'm not silly enough to think that this little poll means anything on a large scale for manufacturers of digital backs. BUT, I think it does show that a majority of mfdb owners are more interested in the things that aren't being spoken about, than the things being propagated in ad campaigns, emails, news letters, etc. etc.
i'm not really interested in a road map at this point, i gave up on that. i'm just baffled that two basic things that would help the client base, are not being addressed, yet revolving chips, new sensor formats, and more and more pixels are.
who asked for the true wide sensor? i'd like to see that poll.
and if this is the road map, where are leaf headed?
i just don't understand the companies selling this stuff i guess, because anyone working with these cameras knows that 50mp and a 2:3 chip aren't on the list. why not just go directly to the square 6x6 chip and sell it for $250.000 and be done with the madness and get back to the real world?
-
I'm curious, since this board has its fair share of photogs from USA and Europe, how are the demands listed here unreasonable?
I'm curious as to how Leaf or Phase One decides on what features to work on when they update their backs.Do they ask professional photographers, ever?
I don't know who the MFDB people are targetting, and obviously it isn't me,so if anyone wants to buy a less than year old 75S please pm me
Yes, we hear you, If I had proper answers for you be sure that you would have heard them by now.
However:
111 votes
30 posters (inc. Thierry and myself) that not all own a digital back
57 votes in total for high iso and better screens
2,106 views - this is a fair number but this can also be 111 voters reading 20 times (every other post).
Can go one step further to split the posters into genres (can do this with anonymous voters)
Statistically, to base a product's roadmap on this pole will be unreasonable, to say the least, no matter how much we all here agree on these two mentioned features.
Kipling, Hamburg to Köln by train takes 4 hrs and €30 - hopefully we'll see you there. I took note about your firewire cable issue and am making sure that this farce won't happen again.
BR
Yair
PS I know this post will raise havoc, my helmet is ON....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212825\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
I think like Morgan Moore said earlier, digital back manufacturers are at the mercy of Dalsa or Kodak.
Do you really think that Leaf, Phase Hass or Sinar would not come up with a high ISO low noise solution as soon as they could? Or a better Live View, etc. They would, if only to be ahead of the competition. But I guess that if the chip is not made to withstand higher sensitivity, there is not much they can do, other than minor tweaks. Ditto with Live View, they would love to have the best in the market, but they just can't, technologically they can't easily do it with what they are given.
I really don't believe they are giving us small incremental improvements deliberately, in order to shift cameras, as in a calculated plot. They are probably doing the best they can.
Then we have another problem of their own doing: Phase announces a higher pixel back. Hasselblad then feels compelled to come up with their own equivalent, and then Leaf, not to fall behind, they also announce their own offering. Maybe they didn't want to go that way, but I guess that if one brand announces, then the other, for marketing reasons, must follow suit. What a charade!
I have some sympathy, frustrated as I may be to see the slow progress.
The future for them doesn't seem so rosy, particularly with Canon, Nikon or Sony making great advances and being able to make their own chips to their own specification and tailored specifically to be used in photographic cameras, not for lab instruments or surveillance or telescopes or Nasa requirements and the like. It's probably a matter of time before we see one of them in a position to challenge the medium format back makers with a better chip, better ISO, better resolution, well, better everything in a compact size and for a lot less money and ready to be bought in any big city in the world in less than 6 minutes.
-
give us a bloody better digital preview for crying out loud
that is NOT dependent on Kodak or Dalsa
I wish some asian company would come into the MFDB realm and do a Fotoman (ok it's an obtuse reference for some...)
I think like Morgan Moore said earlier, digital back manufacturers are at the mercy of Dalsa or Kodak.
Do you really think that Leaf, Phase Hass or Sinar would not come up with a high ISO low noise solution as soon as they could? Or a better Live View, etc. They would, if only to be ahead of the competition. But I guess that if the chip is not made to withstand higher sensitivity, there is not much they can do, other than minor tweaks. Ditto with Live View, they would love to have the best in the market, but they just can't, technologically they can't easily do it with what they are given.
I really don't believe they are giving us small incremental improvements deliberately, in order to shift cameras, as in a calculated plot. They are probably doing the best they can.
Then we have another problem of their own doing: Phase announces a higher pixel back. Hasselblad then feels compelled to come up with their own equivalent, and then Leaf, not to fall behind, they also announce their own offering. Maybe they didn't want to go that way, but I guess that if one brand announces, then the other, for marketing reasons, must follow suit. What a charade!
I have some sympathy, frustrated as I may be to see the slow progress.
The future for them doesn't seem so rosy, particularly with Canon, Nikon or Sony making great advances and being able to make their own chips to their own specification and tailored specifically to be used in photographic cameras, not for lab instruments or surveillance or telescopes or Nasa requirements and the like. It's probably a matter of time before we see one of them in a position to challenge the medium format back makers with a better chip, better ISO, better resolution, well, better everything in a compact size and for a lot less money and ready to be bought in any big city in the world in less than 6 minutes.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212843\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
James,
I would think all of the information you get here, positive and negative would be appreciated.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212787\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It is obviously appreciated, much, to get all this feedback, including your comments. Don't get me wrong, all serious information is forwarded, then taken care by the responsible.
People on this forum (potential customers) have given you a lot of honest information on how difficult it is to find much less buy your product and once again, you seem like a good guy, but I would think the proper response to this would be to answer with a plan on how Sinar will remedy this perception, real or not.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212787\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, absolutely, and again, I do appreciate all this information, otherwise I would not be here.
My previous post was not meant to say that I believe all to be perfect (concerning Sinar and in this US market), of course not. What I wrote was also not meaning that nothing is done to try to improve things which we believe not working or being a problem.
Much has already changed, and many have certainly noticed it. Other issues are still open and looked into it. It takes time, for certain things to find the right answer, to change it from one day to the next, but don't believe that we are sitting with crossed arms and with the satisfaction and the believe that all is done and perfect.
I know you want to put your product in a positive light, (we all want to put ourselves in a positive light), but the best way to do this is to address the issues head on and offer more than your competition.
Being a good guy won't change that. Getting product into rental and on the shelves will.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212787\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm not sure what means "being a good guy". I am not here to be "good", but what I know is that I (we) take ALL issues seriously, check the "facts" out, then try to address and solve the problem myself, if possible, or then forward it to who I believe being the right person to address the issue. And then mostly I do even the follow up. This for "normal" issues.
When it comes to what you are mentioning here, to more general problems like distribution/servicing and support, and since I am not personally the responsible for this market, these issues are forwarded straight away. Again, do not think that what you are saying is put in doubt : there are people who work on it, but it simply takes time.
All I wish(ed) to make clear, was to clean away the idea spread by some that all is negative, that there is no support, no help, no knowledge about products, etc ...: there are many examples of the contrary, and in reality, I can't remember having seen one single complain about the above in the last months.
There are things which still need to change, obviously, and they shall change.
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
-
Yair
PS I know this post will raise havoc, my helmet is ON....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212825\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
There is really not much to say about any of this.
This poll is small.
If we followed everybody's advice we would all go crazy.
I really don't think it matters, if what you have works for you.
JR