Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: j.miller on June 17, 2008, 10:52:44 am
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As of yesterday morning 16/06/2008, ALPA has started delivering the new, highly anticipated ALPA 12 MAX. According to www.alpa.ch, these first deliveries will include cameras to "pre-ordering customers".
In addition, several weeks back, ALPA announced a "short-list" of accessories specific to the ALPA 12 MAX. These accessories include several hand grips, both in rosewood and synthetic black, a new accessory viewfinder adapters for the Linhof multi-focus optical viewfinder, and a stitching adapter / tripod mount.
You can visit www.alpa.ch (http://www.alpa.ch) for more details.
Feel free to contact me with questions.
Regards,
Jordan Miller
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As of yesterday morning 16/06/2008, ALPA has started delivering the new, highly anticipated ALPA 12 MAX. According to www.alpa.ch, these first deliveries will include cameras to "pre-ordering customers".
In addition, several weeks back, ALPA announced a "short-list" of accessories specific to the ALPA 12 MAX. These accessories include several hand grips, both in rosewood and synthetic black, a new accessory viewfinder adapters for the Linhof multi-focus optical viewfinder, and a stitching adapter / tripod mount.
You can visit www.alpa.ch (http://www.alpa.ch) for more details.
Feel free to contact me with questions.
Regards,
Jordan Miller
DTG (http://www.dtgweb.com/shop/home.php?cat=1570)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202078\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Too bad it's so darn BIG... Makes the Horseman or the new Cambo seem like a better alternative...
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Given that the vertical and horizontal shift movements of the ALPA 12 MAX are comprised of two separate, moving "sleds", and with a greater program of compatible accessories designed into the camera, I would expect a bit more size from ALPA.
It appears all of the movement of the Cambo (and the Horseman) take place on the rear "sled", where the back is mounted. The lens is designed to always be stationary.
The ALPA 12 MAX appears to weigh 200g less than the Cambo, yet more than the Horseman... Different tools for different people.
Regards,
Jordan Miller
Too bad it's so darn BIG... Makes the Horseman or the new Cambo seem like a better alternative...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202118\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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so what I'm finding it near impossible to find easily is what the maximum frame size is you can get with stitching from the camera (mm x mm) I don't need to know the rise/fall/shift, just what effective frame size you get if you do a 4-way shot vertical and/or horizontal with a 39Mp sensor size digital back.
thanks.
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so what I'm finding it near impossible to find easily is what the maximum frame size is you can get with stitching from the camera (mm x mm) I don't need to know the rise/fall/shift, just what effective frame size you get if you do a 4-way shot vertical and/or horizontal with a 39Mp sensor size digital back.
thanks.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202148\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Of course some wide angle digital lenses would not be able to cover the entire possible shift.
I believe I was told that the ground glass for the Alpa, which is square, was perfect for viewing the entire final stitched image area.....
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so what I'm finding it near impossible to find easily is what the maximum frame size is you can get with stitching from the camera (mm x mm) I don't need to know the rise/fall/shift, just what effective frame size you get if you do a 4-way shot vertical and/or horizontal with a 39Mp sensor size digital back.
thanks.
Somewhere on Alpa's web site is an Excel spreadsheet that does what you're looking for. You enter the sensor size, lens focal length and image circle, etc, and among other things, it will calculate the effective sensor size with stiching. I recall it's rather hard to find, but I'm sure if you poke around enough on their site, you'll find it. It's not specific to Alpa - it's pretty generic.
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I have been trying to dig this up all day! Here we go:
ALPA Photographic Calculations Worksheet (http://www.alpa.ch/files/downloads/ALPA_CFL_Calc_200801.xls)
You find the tool(s) you are looking for on "Free Calculation" page of this Excel worksheet.
Regards,
Jordan Miller
so what I'm finding it near impossible to find easily is what the maximum frame size is you can get with stitching from the camera (mm x mm) I don't need to know the rise/fall/shift, just what effective frame size you get if you do a 4-way shot vertical and/or horizontal with a 39Mp sensor size digital back.
thanks.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202148\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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...According to www.alpa.ch, these first deliveries will include cameras to "pre-ordering customers"...
I can confirm that, I received mine on monday, together with some lenses.
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Of course some wide angle digital lenses would not be able to cover the entire possible shift.
I believe I was told that the ground glass for the Alpa, which is square, was perfect for viewing the entire final stitched image area.....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202172\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes but what IS the size of that ground glass?! I'm not talking about the lens coverage issue here - just what maximum the sleds are capable of covering in mm x mm assuming your lens is up to it...
it's a really basic question, but Alpa seem to bury it in waffle.
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Yes but what IS the size of that ground glass?! I'm not talking about the lens coverage issue here - just what maximum the sleds are capable of covering in mm x mm assuming your lens is up to it...
it's a really basic question, but Alpa seem to bury it in waffle.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202236\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It depends on what ground glass you put on it!
I use a hasselblad 6x6 - the Alpa is 6x9
/adam
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It depends on what ground glass you put on it!
I use a hasselblad 6x6 - the Alpa is 6x9
/adam
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202248\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
oh this is getting totally ridiculous - I just want to know what the maximum flexible 'sled' coverage is for this thing, when using a digital back in it. we are in 2008, aren't we?
what is the problem with Alpa providing clear information on this BASIC question.
cant believe I'm even having to ask it 3 times...
I've been a professional for 30 years, so I know about lens coverage, and its not an issue for my prospective lens/usage, but no-one will tell me what the camera back movement adds up to in total mm x mm or inches x inches, so... I give up.
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I have no interest in the camera but from their site the specs are
total shift 36mm...18mm left, 18mm right
total rise/fall 43mm...25mm rise, 18mm fall
oh this is getting totally ridiculous - I just want to know what the maximum flexible 'sled' coverage is for this thing, when using a digital back in it. we are in 2008, aren't we?
what is the problem with Alpa providing clear information on this BASIC question.
cant believe I'm even having to ask it 3 times...
I've been a professional for 30 years, so I know about lens coverage, and its not an issue for my prospective lens/usage, but no-one will tell me what the camera back movement adds up to in total mm x mm or inches x inches, so... I give up.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202252\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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oh this is getting totally ridiculous - I just want to know what the maximum flexible 'sled' coverage is for this thing, when using a digital back in it. we are in 2008, aren't we?
what is the problem with Alpa providing clear information on this BASIC question.
cant believe I'm even having to ask it 3 times...
I've been a professional for 30 years, so I know about lens coverage, and its not an issue for my prospective lens/usage, but no-one will tell me what the camera back movement adds up to in total mm x mm or inches x inches, so... I give up.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202252\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
sorry for being totally ridiculous...
Here is the movements for the MAX, from ALPA's site:
shift upwards/rise: 25 mm
shift downwards/fall: 18 mm
vertical shift total: 43 mm
shift left: 18 mm
shift right: 18 mm
horizontal shift total: 36 mm
Then take the size of you sensor, grap you calculater and start calculating
/adam
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what is the problem with Alpa providing clear information on this BASIC question.
cant believe I'm even having to ask it 3 times...
Instead of posting such strange statements here: wouldn't it be a good idea to ask them directly?
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oh this is getting totally ridiculous - I just want to know what the maximum flexible 'sled' coverage is for this thing
It's right on the datasheet, as plain as day, in black and white. It doesn't get any clearer than that. And it has nothing to do with the size of the ground glass. If you'd ask the right question, you'd get the right answer.
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oh this is getting totally ridiculous - I just want to know what the maximum flexible 'sled' coverage is for this thing, when using a digital back in it. we are in 2008, aren't we?
what is the problem with Alpa providing clear information on this BASIC question.
cant believe I'm even having to ask it 3 times...
I've been a professional for 30 years, so I know about lens coverage, and its not an issue for my prospective lens/usage, but no-one will tell me what the camera back movement adds up to in total mm x mm or inches x inches, so... I give up.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202252\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
A really basic question question that requires really basic math skills to answer.
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I can confirm that, I received mine on monday, together with some lenses.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202201\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
OK Thom, fess up. What lenses, what are your initial impressions?
No click stops correct? Release latch to move the sleds without gearing which is much faster?
Did you get the tripod adapter for stationary stitching? The little plastic indicator for reading from the rear the front shift amount? The 9 cm square gg back?
How does it feel? Inquiring minds need to know
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Ok, the details:
My lenses: 28/35/47/70.
Initial impressions: stunning files (but this is no surprise, I'm used to use Canon - or maybe, it feels like home, means it reminds me of my 4x5-film-days!)
There are click-stops at 0, in both rails (left/right and up/down). I ordered a special rail (is this the right term?) with extra click-stops at 14mm left and right, this will give me a stiched image 48x64mm (3:4).
Two release latchs, as you mentioned. A new form of the shifting knob, so you can use one finger for turning it faster. It is a very precise mechanism, maybe too precise (read: too slow) for me - time will tell. But for faster movements, you can always use the release latchs. And no click-stop when using the turning knob! (or is it just my lack of fine feeling?)
No tripod adaptor, no indicators for me. (by the way: they are made of solid aluminum, aren't they?)
A idea: changing the positions of the lens and the back - so one is able to stich two shots vertically with a fixed lens. But then, rise is very limited - if you use the back for a rising picture, it turns into fall, wich is limited to 18mm (sorry for my bad english, but maybe you understand what I mean...) > Update: then turn the camera upside down, so you get 25mm fall (means in this case rise...). Now that's what I call a flexible camera! Mounting the back on the "front" can be a problem, depending on the physical size of your MFDBack and the adapter (but no problem with the aptus/mamiya-combo, I just tried it).
No Alpa groundglass, but two adaptors, one for the mamiya645-leaf (shooting), one for Hasselblad-V with the Arcbody-groundglass and their famous fresnels (composing).
Handling all those adapters, parts, glasses, screens, backs, caps on location? It was my idea, but was it a good one? I don't know - again, time will tell...
Everything feels very solid, very precise. Familiar with Arca-Swiss' automatic locking lensboards it is a little bit stange to use two manual latches to lock the lens - but maybe it is more secure (I remember, years ago, looking trough a 58XL, suddenly a disapearing picture - and then, looking for a 58XL deep in the snow...).
And a very good and friendly service from alpa in Zurich! I'm located in the middle between the alpa headquaters and the seitz factory - one more reason for me to buy this camera.
One last thing: a beautiful camera - but prone to fingerprints...
thom.
OK Thom, fess up. What lenses, what are your initial impressions?
No click stops correct? Release latch to move the sleds without gearing which is much faster?
Did you get the tripod adapter for stationary stitching? The little plastic indicator for reading from the rear the front shift amount? The 9 cm square gg back?
How does it feel? Inquiring minds need to know
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202343\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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It sounds really tempting. Would love to hear more from you about the actual usage. Especially interested in your experience how it works with the V and Rfmx finder (I guess you meant that one with the Arcbody/flexbody style finder).
I have been drooling over the Alpa for years. I am still gathering enough excuses to eventually get one
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Thom,
Thanks for the report. You must be one of the absolute first to get the camera.
Your custom click stops / detents in the rail is a great idea: I wouldn't have known that this was an option.
Have you had an Alpa before? I always use one finger to shift the SWA- and it is still slow.
I assume you got it without grips - or I would ask you if it is really hand holdable.
Can you mount the camera on the side so that you can use the detents in the other direction??
re: the shift indicators: i am sure you are right that they are aluminum. They just look like drink swizzle sticks so I though of them as plastic!
Any more reactions / comments you might have on using the camera will be appreciated.
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Ok, the details:
My lenses: 28/35/47/70.
Initial impressions: stunning files (but this is no surprise, I'm used to use Canon - or maybe, it feels like home, means it reminds me of my 4x5-film-days!)
There are click-stops at 0, in both rails (left/right and up/down). I ordered a special rail (is this the right term?) with extra click-stops at 14mm left and right, this will give me a stiched image 48x64mm (3:4).
Two release latchs, as you mentioned. A new form of the shifting knob, so you can use one finger for turning it faster. It is a very precise mechanism, maybe too precise (read: too slow) for me - time will tell. But for faster movements, you can always use the release latchs. And no click-stop when using the turning knob! (or is it just my lack of fine feeling?)
No tripod adaptor, no indicators for me. (by the way: they are made of solid aluminum, aren't they?)
A idea: changing the positions of the lens and the back - so one is able to stich two shots vertically with a fixed lens. But then, rise is very limited - if you use the back for a rising picture, it turns into fall, wich is limited to 18mm (sorry for my bad english, but maybe you understand what I mean...)
No Alpa groundglass, but two adaptors, one for the mamiya645-leaf (shooting), one for Hasselblad-V with the Arcbody-groundglass and their famous fresnels (composing).
Handling all those adapters, parts, glasses, screens, backs, caps on location? It was my idea, but was it a good one? I don't know - again, time will tell...
Everything feels very solid, very precise. Familiar with Arca-Swiss' automatic locking lensboards it is a little bit stange to use two manual latches to lock the lens - but maybe it is more secure (I remember, years ago, looking trough a 58XL, suddenly a disapearing picture - and then, looking for a 58XL deep in the snow...).
And a very good and friendly service from alpa in Zurich! I'm located in the middle between the alpa headquaters and the seitz factory - one more reason for me to buy this camera.
One last thing: a beautiful camera - but prone to fingerprints...
thom.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202370\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
By any chance will they have a sliding adapter available for viewing/shooting? The tilt adapter is interesting. I am trying to find a camera that will work with short lenses as an Arch camera, but also longer lenses for other things. So far the Silvestri Bicam seems like the only one I have found. I suspect the Alpa would be better made.
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By any chance will they have a sliding adapter available for viewing/shooting? The tilt adapter is interesting. I am trying to find a camera that will work with short lenses as an Arch camera, but also longer lenses for other things. So far the Silvestri Bicam seems like the only one I have found. I suspect the Alpa would be better made.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202414\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I use up to 210mm on my Alpa's - is that too short?
/Adam
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I use up to 210mm on my Alpa's - is that too short?
/Adam
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202418\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
210mm would be great, probably more than enough. Are you able to do any tilt with the long lenses?
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210mm would be great, probably more than enough. Are you able to do any tilt with the long lenses?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202422\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't have the tilt adapter, but I will think so, You need the short barrel versions of the lenses for use with the tilt adapter.
I have the 120mm Short barrel version, with that I can use the full range of movements on the XY,
With the normal barrel version of the 120, there is, from memory, about 15-20 mm of movements.
/Adam
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I don't have the tilt adapter, but I will think so, You need the short barrel versions of the lenses for use with the tilt adapter.
I have the 120mm Short barrel version, with that I can use the full range of movements on the XY,
With the normal barrel version of the 120, there is, from memory, about 15-20 mm of movements.
/Adam
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202424\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The tilt adapter requires short barrel lenses (it replaces the 34mm tube extension), which allows focal lengths of 80mm and longer.
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Especially interested in your experience how it works with the V and Rfmx finder (I guess you meant that one with the Arcbody/flexbody style finder).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202383\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, it's the Rfmx-Finder.
I'm just back from a first shooting this afternoon. With this setup, it's a lot of changing things all the time, no problems with interiors as today, maybe not recommended in dusty environments or on a ladder...
Again, it reminds me of 4x5-film (shooting polaroids, waiting those 45 seconds, putting the waste in a safe place, slide in the holder, pulling the darkslide, ...)
Not a fast way to work, but ok. for me, it helps me to take my time, to see things, to find the better picture.
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Thom,
Thanks for the report. You must be one of the absolute first to get the camera.
Have you had an Alpa before? I always use one finger to shift the SWA- and it is still slow.
I assume you got it without grips - or I would ask you if it is really hand holdable.
Can you mount the camera on the side so that you can use the detents in the other direction??
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202398\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
My camera is one of the first series of 20 units, they told me.
It's my first Alpa.
First, I skipped the grips, but then, thinking of what you handle - a camera, a 28HR and a back - those grips are not cheap, but a lot cheaper than a repair...
So I get a pair of wooden grips - I even had the chance to choose between five different pairs in terms of color and structure of the wood (but all the same wood - rosewood).
Hand holdable without a grip? I would say no, but it is possible, it's just not very safe nor comfortable.
Yes, you can mount the camera on all four sides, top and bottom with a 3/8", left and right with a 1/4".
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By any chance will they have a sliding adapter available for viewing/shooting?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=202414\")
No, there is no sliding adapter available from Alpa. They told me, it's very difficult (more or less impossible) to build an sliding adapter that meets the precision of the camera.
Years ago, there was that prototype:
[a href=\"http://www.alpa.ch/index.php?path=products/discontinued_products&detailpage=234]http://www.alpa.ch/index.php?path=products...&detailpage=234[/url]]
My toughts: the back of the camera is really flat left and right of the groundglass, so maybe, one day, Alpa or a third party take the effort...
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Yes, it's the Rfmx-Finder.
I'm just back from a first shooting this afternoon. With this setup, it's a lot of changing things all the time, no problems with interiors as today, maybe not recommended in dusty environments or on a ladder...
Again, it reminds me of 4x5-film (shooting polaroids, waiting those 45 seconds, putting the waste in a safe place, slide in the holder, pulling the darkslide, ...)
Not a fast way to work, but ok. for me, it helps me to take my time, to see things, to find the better picture.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202428\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Don't worry, you will soon find you self shooting a lot faster than with film, for one reason, you never have to worry about parallel standards, focusing is done in a second, ect...
I'm often on ladders with the bigger XY, and have been in dusty areas as well, no problem - congratulation, it's a fantastic system, there is only one problem - you will start finding excuses for getting a SWA, a TC and......
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I rent the SWA often and it is a fantastic camera. Thinking about getting one but only use it about a half dozen times a year.
The new MAX looks interesting. May have to open up the wallet for this one.