Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: hobbsr on June 15, 2008, 08:42:40 am
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Hi All,
So I have tow options available to me to get into my first MFDB system. I have tested the Hasselblad H3D with an 80 and 50-110 zoom.
Option 1: Hasselblad H3D 31 (used) with new 50-110 lens and some minor accessories
Option2: Mamiya AFD II (used) with refurb P30 back with 1 yr warranty with 80, 150, 105-210, 55-100 lens (used)
These both add up to be very close on price the Mamaiya is approx. $500 more but I would have more lens and a 1 year warranty on the back.
Please offer your views to which system would be the better choice?
Thanks for your insights in advance
Rodney
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Hi All,
So I have tow options available to me to get into my first MFDB system. I have tested the Hasselblad H3D with an 80 and 50-110 zoom.
Option 1: Hasselblad H3D 31 (used) with new 50-110 lens and some minor accessories
Option2: Mamiya AFD II (used) with refurb P30 back with 1 yr warranty with 80, 150, 105-210, 55-100 lens (used)
These both add up to be very close on price the Mamaiya is approx. $500 more but I would have more lens and a 1 year warranty on the back.
Please offer your views to which system would be the better choice?
Thanks for your insights in advance
Rodney
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=201693\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Extremely happy P30 user here..
I think the P30 will have less problems down the road and is really rugged..
I never even looked at Hassle as an option...
SNook
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The warranty is a big plus.
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Hi All,
So I have tow options available to me to get into my first MFDB system. I have tested the Hasselblad H3D with an 80 and 50-110 zoom.
Option 1: Hasselblad H3D 31 (used) with new 50-110 lens and some minor accessories
Option2: Mamiya AFD II (used) with refurb P30 back with 1 yr warranty with 80, 150, 105-210, 55-100 lens (used)
These both add up to be very close on price the Mamaiya is approx. $500 more but I would have more lens and a 1 year warranty on the back.
Please offer your views to which system would be the better choice?
Thanks for your insights in advance
Rodney
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=201693\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
ok, here's how I look at it.
If you're already doing big budget shoots, you won't be asking this as money won't be a problem. You'll get the Hassy and just pop a few K each time you need a new lens. But from the looks of it, you may be better off with the Mamiya and free off some money for other expenses. If you ever need to expand the system, getting a used Mamiya lens off ebay is cheap. Most of the lenses on ebay are under 1k, definately you can pay it off with 1 shoot. I believe Hassy lenses are 3 times that ? So if you clock 5k per shoot, go for the Hassy.
Anyway, the lenses from the Mamiya set you mentioned has too many overlaps. I find shooting with the DB and a MF camera to be slow and deliberate, most of the time you get to control the shooting situation hence you can take your time with primes. YMMV
cheers
rgs
rueyloon
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Have you considered the recent promotion announced on the Hasselblad H3DII-31? I am not sure what you were planning to pay for the used H3D-31, or a used AFDII / P30...
The promotion currently available on the H3DII-31 puts the price under $18K for a complete H3DII-31!
With the appropriate discussion with a dealer, including the HC 50-110mm, you could easily get into the H3DII-31 kit, plus the HC zoom, for roughly $21K.
The lens pricing is an obvious consideration with any system, and the advantages of the HC lenses (especially on an H3DII), as well as the those of the Mamiya AFD have been discussed in detail throughout this forum, as well as others.
Regards,
Jordan Miller
Hi All,
So I have tow options available to me to get into my first MFDB system. I have tested the Hasselblad H3D with an 80 and 50-110 zoom.
Option 1: Hasselblad H3D 31 (used) with new 50-110 lens and some minor accessories
Option2: Mamiya AFD II (used) with refurb P30 back with 1 yr warranty with 80, 150, 105-210, 55-100 lens (used)
These both add up to be very close on price the Mamaiya is approx. $500 more but I would have more lens and a 1 year warranty on the back.
Please offer your views to which system would be the better choice?
Thanks for your insights in advance
Rodney
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=201693\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Hi All,
So I have tow options available to me to get into my first MFDB system. I have tested the Hasselblad H3D with an 80 and 50-110 zoom.
Option 1: Hasselblad H3D 31 (used) with new 50-110 lens and some minor accessories
Option2: Mamiya AFD II (used) with refurb P30 back with 1 yr warranty with 80, 150, 105-210, 55-100 lens (used)
These both add up to be very close on price the Mamaiya is approx. $500 more but I would have more lens and a 1 year warranty on the back.
Please offer your views to which system would be the better choice?
Thanks for your insights in advance
Rodney
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=201693\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi
Really depends on your need for leaf shutters or not. If not go for the Mamiya.
Denis
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Hi
I went for Leaf Aptus 65 over P30 and am very pleased. Prices vary in different regions. I went for a new A65 since it was not that much more than refurbished and longer warranty . As for P30 versus A65 it is due personal preferences and shooting style.
When I open files in CS3 Camera Raw image colors look already beautiful at default settings and my eye is very sensitive.
Regards
Anders
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Hi All,
Just wanted to provide an update as late today I was able at last to get a P30+ to test which is suppose to represent a P30 as that is what is on offer. I ran around with the 35, 80 and 150 and did a limited test and found the following initial observations which I wanted to see if these sound common:
1. mamiya vs Hasselblad the images seemed a little softer from the Mamiya even when stopped down
2. Liked the fact that the H3D powers the back from the grip
3. P31+ seems to have a better noise pattern and maybe C1 helps this processing mainly looking at iso 800, not sure if there are any other major IQ differences?
4. Mamiya was much lighter to handle
5. Hasselblad lens just feel better made
6. 645 AFD and P31+ back seemed to be better made and more durable than the H3D
7. P31+ screen seems alot nicer than the H3D lcd
key last point was the difference in being able to shoot at hight than 1/800th with the 645 AFD which enabled more 2.8 usage which I like. Still not sure how I would fair with the H3D as sync speed is not a killer for me at this stage?
Anyway if anybody has anything extra to add as I have to sort this out on Friday this week. major problem I see is if I go with the H3D which is the best lens. I have this in another post and keep hearing bad things about the 50-110 zoom around reliability? Unfortunately the key to me buying into that system is that I will need to survive a while on one lens. mamiya is far more affordable in the short term to build the system out but will be paying more for the back. Choices are hard.
Key points:
Mamiya + P30
- Warranty with back and can be extended
- cost of lens and availability of used ones
- Overall weight
Hasselblad
- Integrated system
- Build quality of the lens and overall better sharpness
Lots to think thru.
Rodney
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Rodney,
Not to stir the pot any more, but were you able to take a look at a Phase One 645 body/ lenses?
Here are some of the improvements:
Improved shutter speed range 1/4000th - 60 minutes
New AF motor with 3 AF points
New digital board
Improved dial, shutter, grip ergonomics, AF lever (for AF mode selection)
Ready for 120 frames per minute
Ready for leaf shutters, expected 2008
Value Added Warranty: 3 year or 300,000 actuations (body and lens)
Classic Warranty: 1 year or 100,000 actuations (body and lens)
Compatible with Mamiya MF lenses, and AF lenses with no adaptor
Compatible with Hasselblad V lenses with adapter (included with Value Added Warranty)
Compatible with Pentacon 6 series lenses with adapter (available from Hartblei)
New 80mm F2.8 AF lens
Extremely low chromatic aberration
Steel barrel
New ergonomic design
New Value Added Case
Fits a laptop
Has roller wheels and handle
Room for body and two lenses
Here is a link to Phase One's web site to see more information.
http://www.phaseone.com/camera/ (http://www.phaseone.com/camera/)
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
[email protected]
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year (http://www.captureintegration.com)
877-217-9870 | National
404-234-5195 | Cell
Sign up for our Newsletter (http://visitor.constantcontact.com/email.jsp?m=1101868815210&p=oi) | Read Our Latest Newsletter (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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I've been with Hassy & Phase for four years. Love it for certain reasons.
But liking the new Mamiya as I had a loaner for a week. Once the leaf shutter lenses come out I will most likely switch. I REALLY love the AA battery feature in the body. You can get a double A anywhere in the world! I mean anywhere.
Hassy is a city slicker, the mamiya can really go anywhere.
Quality is comparable in lens sharpness.
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Key points:
Mamiya + P30
- Warranty with back and can be extended
- cost of lens and availability of used ones
- Overall weight
Hasselblad
- Integrated system
- Build quality of the lens and overall better sharpness
Lots to think thru.
Rodney
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202062\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Not to take this completely off topic, but yesterday afternoon I received a call from a friend who is a high end amateur. He walked into a camera store that sells Leaf, Phase, Sinar and Hasselblad cash in hand to buy a digital back for his contax.
He wanted Phase back, but was open minded about whatever brand, though the goal was to use his contax with digital, rather than film.
He was shocked that he just couldn't buy a back, put it on his camera and leave.
They had Phase for the Phase camera, Hasselblad was an all in one system, the Leaf and Sinars that were availalble were all in HY6 mounts and the dealer told him a contax mount in any of these backs would take a month minimum.
So now he's looking at a new camera with new lenses and was almost to the point of buying when it hit him that he really didn't want a new camera with new lenses, he just wanted to be able to shoot digital with his contax, put the files in photoshop and process them.
He briefly entertained the hd31 until the dealer told him the files had to be converted to dng to work in photoshop and lightroom so he dropped that thought.
Then he looked at the HY6 but the lens prices for a complete system put him off, so then he entertained the Phase camera, but only because it would adapt to his RZ, though then once told he had to either upgrade his RZ to a RZ digital body, or use a sync cable from the back to the lens, etc. etc.
Now this wasn't a kick the tires on a Saturday afternoon session, this was a cash in hand, buy a digital back today effort and a sale was directly lost because none of these back easily go onto any camera platform without a long wait, or buying different adapters (another wait) or buying a new camera system which was a lot more expense, or learning a makers software to convert the files, which he has no interest in.
This is what surprises me about medium format. The back makers have spent millions aligining themselves with their own proprietary cameras but none of them make it easy to just click a back on any medium format camera and start shooting. (yes I know Hasselblad and Sinar have adapters, but this dealer had none in stock and said the wait was weeks maybe months).
So his next step was to go downstairs to rental and rent one of these systems before buying.
They didn't rent Sinar and Hasselblad so he couldn't test that, they did rent phase, but the few backs they had were out of the store and they did rent a Leaf but an older version A22 for an H-1 mount, so he left the store.
I can relate to this. What if I wanted to add a new camera for my backs, either a Hasselblad, a Mamiya/Phase or a Hy6. I might entertain that if only for the leaf shutters, but not at the expense of throwing away 4 bodies and a dozen lenses.
For some reason medium format complicates the process or has a myopic view that the only people interested in buying a digital back are also interested in a new camera system and most importantly locked into that one camera system.
JR
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I went through this in January and went with the P30+ in AFd mount over an H3D. It was easier for me because I had an AFd and lenses. I don't know for sure whether I would go with the AFd if I didn't already have one. I think it really comes down to which workflow works for you and which camera clicks with you, because the digital hardware side of it is essentially the same.
So, which software did you like better? Flexcolor/Phocus or C1?
Which camera? The H has better AF and a max 800 shutter. The AFd has crappy AF and up to 1/4000 shutter, but only syncs at 1/125. Lenses are, mostly, a toss.
To be frank, I don't love any of the MF cameras with AF, except the Hy6 and the Rollei 6008. And even these cameras are limited by not having a focal plane shutter.
One thing nice about the H3D is that the back is matched to the body, which might partially account for the sharper images you see from the H. The other factor in the softer P30 image is probably the Mamiya's AF. My AFd bodies (not AFd2) always lock focus on the wrong point and, even on a tripod and pointed at a static subject, will change focus each time the AF is triggered. The AFd2 is better, even a little faster, but not as good as the H3 AF, which is still like a Nikon F4's AF. I did a test last night and found that 90% of the frames were out of focus when using AF, wide open. Manually focusing 10% were soft due to focus error. My 5D frames look sharper because they are always in focus. Good luck with this. You might also want to consider a 1ds3 and a 35L, 50 1.4, 85L, and 135L. About $11k-$12k USD. Less pain, more pictures.
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I went through this in January and went with the P30+ in AFd mount over an H3D. It was easier for me because I had an AFd and lenses. I don't know for sure whether I would go with the AFd if I didn't already have one. I think it really comes down to which workflow works for you and which camera clicks with you, because the digital hardware side of it is essentially the same.
So, which software did you like better? Flexcolor/Phocus or C1?
Which camera? The H has better AF and a max 800 shutter. The AFd has crappy AF and up to 1/4000 shutter, but only syncs at 1/125. Lenses are, mostly, a toss.
To be frank, I don't love any of the MF cameras with AF, except the Hy6 and the Rollei 6008. And even these cameras are limited by not having a focal plane shutter................................................
You might also want to consider a 1ds3 and a 35L, 50 1.4, 85L, and 135L. About $11k-$12k USD. Less pain, more pictures.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202087\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'll say this again, but when you walk in cash in hand and instead of finding that you have more options with medium format, you actually have less options than even 3 years ago, it does make just going to a 1ds3 seem painless. Sure there are three almost new cameras (well semi- new) but all three are somewhat proprietary to the digital backs you purchase.
I know the makers are trying hard to offer the best solution, but in my mind the digital back maker that builds a real universal back that is available to buy TODAY for almost any camera will be the one that wins.
Then there is the process of what happens if you make the wrong choice in digital backs. It's not a $5,000 loss, or a $4,000 upgrade to change to a new system, it can easily be a total of $30,000 and spending way too much time on e-bay trying to recover some of the lost investment.
I would like a leaf shutter option that my Contax doesn't offer, at least for the two times a year I need it, but not at the expense of giving up fast lenses and the focal plane shutter and defiantley not at the costs of selling $35,000 in camera backs and buying new one more time.
JR
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Sinar eMotion IS the Universal back
Yevgeny
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Any of the Hasselblad CF or CFII-Series backs work wonderfully on the Contax 645AF platform. As with the Sinar range, the CF and CFII-Series backs incorporate an interchangeable mount system, which can be installed and change by the user. If your friend wanted to change camera platforms down the road, or decides he would like to use a 28mm lens, it is only a matter of investing in the "new" camera, and buying the appropriate mount (approx $500-$800) for his "new" camera. Thats about as universal as it gets!
Regards,
Jordan Miller
....I know the makers are trying hard to offer the best solution, but in my mind the digital back maker that builds a real universal back that is available to buy TODAY for almost any camera will be the one that wins....
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202093\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Sinar eMotion IS the Universal back
Yevgeny
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202104\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You may be right, though Sinar's information in the U.S. is rather limited, especially in the major markets.
I've only held two Sinars in my life (on both coasts) and could not click the shutter because both times the dealer didn't have the batteries charged.
In fact I'm being rather discreet in what the dealers actually said about the Sinar as one NY store just said, uh yea we sell them, but you'll have to order and that may take a while.
I strongly suggest if Sinar wants more play, especially in the U.S., they get their backs into rentals so people can actually test them before they buy.
They also need a program to get digital techs up to speed on their software and workflow.
Once again, if someone walks into a store to buy any back, universal (they should all be universal) or non universal, they should be able to spend the cash and walk out with the back ready to go.
If not, they either buy nothing, or buy a Canon.
JR
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You may be right, though Sinar's information in the U.S. is rather limited, especially in the major markets.
I've only held two Sinars in my life (on both coasts) and could not click the shutter because both times the dealer didn't have the batteries charged.
In fact I'm being rather discreet in what the dealers actually said about the Sinar as one NY store just said, uh yea we sell them, but you'll have to order and that may take a while.
I strongly suggest if Sinar wants more play, especially in the U.S., they get their backs into rentals so people can actually test them before they buy.
They also need a program to get digital techs up to speed on their software and workflow.
Once again, if someone walks into a store to buy any back, universal (they should all be universal) or non universal, they should be able to spend the cash and walk out with the back ready to go.
If not, they either buy nothing, or buy a Canon.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202108\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't really understand what is going on with Sinar in the US either. I can walk into any big NYC photo retailer and walk out with $50k worth of Broncolor lighting, or a Sinar EL 100 belows for a P3, but they just don't have the Sinarbacks available. When you ask they steer you towards Phase or Leaf. This should be unacceptable as NYC is the commercial photo capital of the world, no? The largest market? Why should I get all my information about Sinarbacks and the Hy6 from this forum in the person of Thierry?
One thing Blad does right is flood the distribution channels. I know I can walk into Calumet and walk out with an H3DII-39 and four lenses. Phase (it appears) has a just in time delivery from Denmark, so it may take a week to get you a back, but they will lend you one until your back arrives and youy can certainly check one out to your hearts content. You can rent one in any major market. Same goes for Leaf.
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Any of the Hasselblad CF or CFII-Series backs work wonderfully on the Contax 645AF platform. As with the Sinar range, the CF and CFII-Series backs incorporate an interchangeable mount system, which can be installed and change by the user. If your friend wanted to change camera platforms down the road, or decides he would like to use a 28mm lens, it is only a matter of investing in the "new" camera, and buying the appropriate mount (approx $500-$800) for his "new" camera. Thats about as universal as it gets!
Regards,
Jordan Miller
DTG (http://www.dtgweb.com)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202107\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Jordan,
CFII ????? Could you elaborate on that? It was kind of expected but I am hoping for the 'new & improved' IR filter, 3,5" screen, better positioned firewire port and....
a killer upgrade deal for my 384
I do agree on the Hasselblad CF being an extremely versatile back, not many people seem to be aware of this option. Most are only taking the H3 versions into consideration which is a pity.
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In late April of this rear Hasselblad (quietly) began shipping an improved version of its CF-Series digital backs. Among the improvements in a larger 2.5" TFT screen (as apposed to the original 2.2" OLED), as well as an improved IR filter for greater performance with handling specular highlights.
The pricing has not changed, nor have the part numbers. These new backs are referred to as the CFII-Series (ie. CFII-22, CFII-39, etc.)
Regards,
Jordan Miller
Jordan,
CFII ????? Could you elaborate on that?
I do agree on the Hasselblad CF being an extremely versatile back, not many people seem to be aware of this option. Most are only taking the H3 versions into consideration which is a pity.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202114\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Ok...
I just added some stuff that is pretty much in line with what you were about to post. No 3,5" screen, bummer but at least a lot better than the 2,2 Oled which is next to useless.
The IR filter, if the same as the H3II, will be a welcome addition in some cases.
Good to hear the pricing is the same, I guess that when I trade-up my 384 to the 39MS it still will be the same price as advertised in the customer care program.
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Any of the Hasselblad CF or CFII-Series backs work wonderfully on the Contax 645AF platform. As with the Sinar range, the CF and CFII-Series backs incorporate an interchangeable mount system, which can be installed and change by the user. If your friend wanted to change camera platforms down the road, or decides he would like to use a 28mm lens, it is only a matter of investing in the "new" camera, and buying the appropriate mount (approx $500-$800) for his "new" camera. Thats about as universal as it gets!
Regards,
Jordan Miller
DTG (http://www.dtgweb.com)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202107\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The CF may be great, but if any digital camera does not produce a file that goes straight into photoshop or lightroom without conversion , then that's a deal breaker for a lot of the market.*
Still, the point is when my friend tried to buy a back for his Contax, the dealer didn't push the CF or the Sinar they pushed the hd3 31 or whatever it's called.
The thing that needs to be addressed is regardless of the camera platform, this is somebody that went in to buy a medium format back and walked out with nothing.
How much better would it have been for all the manufacturers to have what he wanted available on the day, or maybe overnight?
JR
*BTW none of this makes any bloody sense. My Leica dng files from the camera will work all the way down to CS1 and it shoots a jpeg to boot.
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The CF may be great, but if any digital camera does not produce a file that goes straight into photoshop or lightroom without conversion , then that's a deal breaker for a lot of the market.*
Still, the point is when my friend tried to buy a back for his Contax, the dealer didn't push the CF or the Sinar they pushed the hd3 31 or whatever it's called.
The thing that needs to be addressed is regardless of the camera platform, this is somebody that went in to buy a medium format back and walked out with nothing.
How much better would it have been for all the manufacturers to have what he wanted available on the day, or maybe overnight?
JR
*BTW none of this makes any bloody sense. My Leica dng files from the camera will work all the way down to CS1 and it shoots a jpeg to boot.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202120\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If someone walks in with a Contax and asks for a back for their Contax, there is no reason that an H3D or anything other than a Contax-compatible product should be the first recommendation. I see nothing wrong with having a discussion about pros and cons of that platform vs others going forward depending on what that customer does and what they desire. But a good dealer provides a service to their customer by informing them of options and ramifications of making a serious financial investment with regard to many aspects. If the customer comes to the conclusion that staying with what they already have makes the most sense - a valid decision in many instances - there shouldn't be anything that prevents that, or any lack of interest on the dealer's part.
The #1 priority for the dealer should always be to arrive at the solution that fits best what the customer wants to do and where the customer wants to go, not the other way around.
Generally Hasselblad CF digital backs and Sinar digital backs like the eMotion - both of which feature user-changeable camera interface kits for Contax - are available in the USA. You may not be able to walk out with one that day, but if you want one the next day, that is usually not an issue. I was told about a week or so ago that the new Hasselblad CFII backs would be in stock in a couple weeks, but this is a new product and this is the first shipment. Generally, the product is right on the shelf. I make a phone call, and it's on the way to me or my customer for delivery the next day.
Dealers do not stock digital backs - there are exceptions, maybe Calumet, but not sure. We don't have "Tent Sales" where we have to "blow out" 200 Toyota H3D's this month. As everyone knows, the actual monthly unit sales are well below that. Would we sell more if we stocked them? In my experience, no. Keeping a $20K or $30K item in inventory more than a few weeks already starts to have a serious negative effect on margin.
But that doesn't mean a customer can't have one delivered to his door the very next morning from his smiling and helpful dealer. JR, it doesn't sound like this was the case for your friend, nor were his true needs addressed, and that is a problem.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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If someone walks in with a Contax and asks for a back for their Contax, there is no reason that an H3D or anything other than a Contax-compatible product should be the first recommendation. I see nothing wrong with having a discussion about pros and cons of that platform vs others going forward depending on what that customer does and what they desire. But a good dealer provides a service to their customer by informing them of options and ramifications of making a serious financial investment with regard to many aspects. If the customer comes to the conclusion that staying with what they already have makes the most sense - a valid decision in many instances - there shouldn't be anything that prevents that, or any lack of interest on the dealer's part.
The #1 priority for the dealer should always be to arrive at the solution that fits best what the customer wants to do and where the customer wants to go, not the other way around.
Generally Hasselblad CF digital backs and Sinar digital backs like the eMotion - both of which feature user-changeable camera interface kits for Contax - are available in the USA. You may not be able to walk out with one that day, but if you want one the next day, that is usually not an issue. I was told about a week or so ago that the new Hasselblad CFII backs would be in stock in a couple weeks, but this is a new product and this is the first shipment. Generally, the product is right on the shelf. I make a phone call, and it's on the way to me or my customer for delivery the next day.
Dealers do not stock digital backs - there are exceptions, maybe Calumet, but not sure. We don't have "Tent Sales" where we have to "blow out" 200 Toyota H3D's this month. As everyone knows, the actual monthly unit sales are well below that. Would we sell more if we stocked them? In my experience, no. Keeping a $20K or $30K item in inventory more than a few weeks already starts to have a serious negative effect on margin.
But that doesn't mean a customer can't have one delivered to his door the very next morning from his smiling and helpful dealer. JR, it doesn't sound like this was the case for your friend, nor were his true needs addressed, and that is a problem.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202125\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Actually the case with my friend was the dealer was pushing the 22mpx h3 on him with two forms of discount.
He didn't dislike the blad, he just didn't want to buy the blad and there is where the problem is.
I'm not pushing one back over the other, I am saying that a cusomter comes in and wants to put digital film on his camera and instead of someone saying, yep, we can get it in two days, heres the price, hand over a credit card, they start selling him up, or in this case over to another brand.
Your right, there is nothing wrong with a dealer offering options, but in this instance the dealer didn't offer any options except one and that option wasn't what the customer wanted so the dealer sold nothing. The dealer didn't even get a rental out of the effort so what does that say about medium format?
Steve, you like the idea of camera/back integration, personally I don't and personally I don't see a problem with my contax not talking to the camera back because I haven't seen any issues with the files.
Regardless I can promise you that this market is so small and medium format is so complicated that unless the back makers find a way to just sell the backs and make it easy on their customers, it will become an all Nikon and Canon world because you can buy one of those the same day and yes the files work in about everything.
JR
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Actually the case with my friend was the dealer was pushing the 22mpx h3 on him with two forms of discount.
He didn't dislike the blad, he just didn't want to buy the blad and there is where the problem is.
I'm not pushing one back over the other, I am saying that a cusomter comes in and wants to put digital film on his camera and instead of someone saying, yep, we can get it in two days, heres the price, hand over a credit card, they start selling him up, or in this case over to another brand.
Your right, there is nothing wrong with a dealer offering options, but in this instance the dealer didn't offer any options except one and that option wasn't what the customer wanted so the dealer sold nothing. The dealer didn't even get a rental out of the effort so what does that say about medium format?
JR
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Yes - that is where the dealer failed that customer (and themselves). It's a problem.
Steve, you like the idea of camera/back integration, personally I don't and personally I don't see a problem with my contax not talking to the camera back because I haven't seen any issues with the files.
JR
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As time goes on, medium format film cameras will become less and less viable. I see camera/back integration as inevitable and I see it as advanced in some ways, perhaps ways that haven't even been thought of yet. Maybe not for you, but I think photographers have a tendency to underestimate the different ways in which photographic products are used and if a photographer doesn't see a benefit to the way he/she works, often the conclusion is that there is no advantage to others.
I do not see camera/back integration as a viably exclusive choice where you can no longer buy a digital back to put on whatever camera you want. In fact, while I do like camera/back integration (and so do my customers that buy it), I feel strongly that Hasselblad, Leaf, and Sinar don't emphasize their digital backs enough, which is particularly unfortunate for Hasselblad/Sinar, given that they offer the most flexible open platform digital backs on the market.
Regardless I can promise you that this market is so small and medium format is so complicated that unless the back makers find a way to just sell the backs and make it easy on their customers, it will become an all Nikon and Canon world because you can buy one of those the same day and yes the files work in about everything
JR
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I think you know it will never become an all Nikon/Canon (Sony?) world but darned if medium format sometimes helps to create that possibility. Lots of things could be better. Medium format is clearly a technically complex platform, and the medium format manufacturers, while they're trying, have to do a better job of making it vaible to purchase. It's a challenge, though, as it requires a difficult blend of financial committment (with a healthy dose of faith), and integrity-based, knowledgeable and passionate sales staff on the dealer side of things.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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Everyone says Sinar is hard to find in the US, but it seems quite available at one of the most popular camera stores in America, and if you're not a pro, and you have to wait a month for something to be ordered, so what? The same thing could easily happen to a Canon 5D or some Canon lens. The 85 1.8 is out of stock quite often...
Sinar emotion 75: http://www.calumetphoto.com/item/SR976865/ (http://www.calumetphoto.com/item/SR976865/)
Contax 645 emotion adapter: http://www.calumetphoto.com/item/SR946877/ (http://www.calumetphoto.com/item/SR946877/)
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Everyone says Sinar is hard to find in the US, but it seems quite available at one of the most popular camera stores in America, and if you're not a pro, and you have to wait a month for something to be ordered, so what? The same thing could easily happen to a Canon 5D or some Canon lens. The 85 1.8 is out of stock quite often...
Sinar emotion 75: http://www.calumetphoto.com/item/SR976865/ (http://www.calumetphoto.com/item/SR976865/)
Contax 645 emotion adapter: http://www.calumetphoto.com/item/SR946877/ (http://www.calumetphoto.com/item/SR946877/)
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How is Sinar Pricing Compared to the others..?
I hear Sinar or Broncolor and I instantly think $$$$$$
Just habit..?
Snook
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Dear Snook,
Yes, I believe it is "pure habit":
http://sinarbron.com/documents/Sinar_Pricing_2008.pdf (http://sinarbron.com/documents/Sinar_Pricing_2008.pdf)
Best regards,
Thierry
How is Sinar Pricing Compared to the others..?
I hear Sinar or Broncolor and I instantly think $$$$$$
Just habit..?
Snook
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=202141\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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what I have slowly come to realise is that the old way of thinking - that the 'Camera' was what you bought (i.e. the body) and then added backs, lenses, accessories, to make your system is the wrong model today.
what we should be thinking is that you buy the digital back, and add the rest around it, as the accessories, including the camera...
It's the most expensive item, and all the rest falls into place around it - thus you can buy a Phase back, and then add/ use it with- a contax/hassie/mamiya/phase body+ lens, or put it on something like an Alpa/ Cambo, or onto your Sinar/ Linhof view camera with an adapter. its the BACK that is central to this.
Thus think first of the digital back and how many options it gives you to work in different ways, with different bodies for different purposes, and that gives you your answer. So if you only shoot in the studio with a 'blad type camera then their (closed) system is very good, but if you ever think you might want to use the back on a view camera, or on an Alpa for extreme wide work / shift, or on another type of body (Mamiya, Contax...) then you have to go with that aspect and invest in an unlocked system.
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I only shoot with Phase and have tried them all. For the past 5 years have been with phase, leaf, sinar, hasselblad and back to Phase
It is just easy and my experience. Not wanting to start an argument.
But as most pro's here state. TEST IT, TEST IT, TEST IT and see what works for you.
Best of luck with you choice