Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: dustblue on April 19, 2008, 08:22:09 am
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One week ago I tried leaf afi6 from the leaf dealer Beijing, yesterday I tried sinar hy6 with emotion 75 from the sinar dealer Beijing. Both leaf and sinar claim that the cameras which I tried are not final products, thus still have some problems.
Below is some of my experience/conclusion{I won't compare the IQ because they are 22mp vs 33mp } :
Leaf:
1.Af sucks. Doesn't work at all when focus at some dark/low contrast scene. I forgot if the Autofocus aidlights was working.
2.The preview IQ is not that good as I expected.
3.I tried the LC11, it looks good and give me an excellent result, but it really need time to be familiar with it. Personally I like the interface of ACR/C4 much more, I dont even need to go through the manual before I can get a stunning tiff with ACR/C4.
4.Battery case seems to be made roughly, I cant even close it...when working there is still a big gap between the cap and case. However remember this is not the final product.
Sinar:
1.Af excellent.Quick and efficient. I'm shocked when I focus it{I tried both leaf and sinar indoor, with EV3-7}. As far as I know both camera are same at hardware, but why such a big difference for the af system?? I noticed that the Autofocus aidlights is working for the sinar hy6, but I really cant remember for the afi if it works...
2.Horrible Lcd.I just cant believe it! Why Sinar put such a crap on a 20k$ product?? Is it a joke? btw I dont like the interface too.
3.DNG supported, this is really a big issue. I can use c4/ACR for it, and I did-excellent result.
4.Same problem on battery case as leaf afi.
Both hy6/afi have an excellent ergonomics design, which is a way better than mamiya afd/contax/hallel v series. The function of the camera is great, even better than 6008af. It's easy to use, I just grab it and minutes later I know how to use all its excenllent functions, like trap focus.
Finally, Leaf distributor here in China provide a much better service than Sinar. Before I got to try afi, I receive lots of calls from both leaf and their dealer, after I tried it, they call me too. But for Sinar, they said they will contact me when the camera arrived Beijing half a month ago, then I got no message from them until I call them yesterday afternoon, I asked when will the camera arrive, they said it's already been in Beijing for nearly a week, if I want to try it, I should go to their company right now or the camera would go to the west of China hours later...
oh I forgot the biggest issue about leaf. the HOT wind, yes, the HOT wind. I always use the wl finder, and I always put my head up the camera when I work, thus the hot wind from the DB is blowing straightly to my face. Personally I really cant stand that, I am easy to sweat, with leaf back I will have to wipe my face every few minutes in summer...I cant imagine that...
BTW I wrote this just as my PERSONAL feeling, I hope it is useful to some of you. If my article offend either Leaf or Sinar's men, or the proud owner of either brand I'm really sorry.
-Dustblue
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Are they using prototypes as demo units? They Hy6 is in production and you shouldn't have problems like that. The AF should be identical on both. Sounds like something was wrong with the Leaf. Old firmware? Or maybe a pre-production unit?
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Both of them are pre-production unit. I'm wondering why too.
Are they using prototypes as demo units? They Hy6 is in production and you shouldn't have problems like that. The AF should be identical on both. Sounds like something was wrong with the Leaf. Old firmware? Or maybe a pre-production unit?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190577\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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NO, there is not a single pre-production unit out with our dealers!
There have been, LAST YEAR about 5 pre-production units traveling around the world: ALL HAVE COME BACK since ages.
ALL our distributors have their production units. Period.
Now to what you have seen and report here:
- the autofocus IS excellent on this camera: if any makes another experience, then I guess something went the wrong way. I cannot imagine differently.
- display: the OLED (not LCD) you have seen is not what we are delivering right now with the eMotion 75 backs: a 2.5" display, since this has been released a couple of days ago. However, what you have seen is certainly a display which was not set correctly: the brightness can be set from 1 to 5 and you have probably seen it set on 1. I will speak to our distributor about this.
- battery case: I have to check this out with our distributor, since I have not experienced such with my demo unit, in the contrary: it is smooth, fast and easy to open/close and take out or place in the battery.
- service of our distributor: I can't comment here and yet, since I don't have all the elements to speak. But I know our distributor to be serious and efficient: Actually, you have experienced it 2 weeks ago, Dustblue, when I was in contact with you via PM: they have contacted you within 1/2 hour. So let me check out what happens before my jumping to a conclusion.
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
Both of them are pre-production unit. I'm wondering why too.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190579\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Yes I was impressed, really, and Sinar give me a good impression that time. but service should be long term and stable. What I experenced is just service BEFORE sales, more important part is AFTER sale service which I cant comment.
What annoy me is that the distributor here didn't redeem their promise. This is about honesty which I always considered seriously when I choose a high-pay service.
- service of our distributor: I can't comment here and yet, since I don't have all the elements to speak. But I know our distributor to be serious and efficient: Actually, you have experienced it 2 weeks ago, Dustblue, when I was in contact with you via PM: they have contacted you within 1/2 hour. So let me check out what happens before my jumping to a conclusion.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190581\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Dustblue,
I shall come back to you, as soon as I have spoken with Mr. Hugh Wong and got his feedback. I do understand your disappointment for them not having called back, since I feel the same in such a case. I know also that PSC has a very good service and that they are serious, however, I do believe your experience and wish to sort this out with them.
Leave me some time for this, since am flying to Switzerland tomorrow night until Monday.
Best regards,
Thierry
Yes I was impressed, really, and Sinar give me a good impression that time. but service should be long term and stable. What I experenced is just service BEFORE sales, more important part is AFTER sale service which I cant comment.
What annoy me is that the distributor here didn't redeem their promise. This is about honesty which I always considered seriously when I choose a high-pay service.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190590\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry:
Sorry to bother you about this:) I do believe Sinar has a good service, maybe the problem is just a mistake.If not, how to improve management maybe considered.
Dustblue,
I shall come back to you, as soon as I have spoken with Mr. Hugh Wong and got his feedback. I do understand your disappointment for them not having called back, since I feel the same in such a case. I know also that PSC has a very good service and that they are serious, however, I do believe your experience and wish to sort this out with them.
Leave me some time for this, since am flying to Switzerland tomorrow night until Monday.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190594\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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You don't bother me, Dustblue.
I believe that it is a mistake, since I believe that Mr. Wong was not in Beijing last week, and may be it was one of their employes. It is not an excuse however, and should be improved, you're right.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry:
Sorry to bother you about this:) I do believe Sinar has a good service, maybe the problem is just a mistake.If not, how to improve management maybe considered.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190597\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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You don't bother me, Dustblue.
I believe that it is a mistake, since I believe that Mr. Wong was not in Beijing last week, and may be it was one of their employes. It is not an excuse however, and should be improved, you're right.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190599\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Dustblue:
Very interesting that you found the GUI of the Aptus complex. I consider it one of the most impressive developments from Leaf ever. You have the ability to do far more in camera than with any other MFDB, and yet it is so simple to operate. This could have been a disaster - many functions, touch screen, but instead it is elegant, fast, and seamless. Nearly everyone I show it to is very impressed at the Aptus GUI. I'm curious if there was something in particular that you found complicated?
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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I think the on camera/DB set should be simple and accurate, without drawing a lot of intention, especially when on location. Leaf's GUI is great, for some aspect, e.g. it's very creative, very powerful. But it's not convenient, at least to me. If it's operated by buttons, we can set it even blindly, without search and locate my finger on the screen. For instance, after I shoot one photo--especially when on location, which has a complex light condition--I always want to check the histogram, surely I want to check it with just a click, but not a search on the screen. This may be just ONE second difference, but it cost.
I think put some buttons on the side should be great.
Dustblue:
Very interesting that you found the GUI of the Aptus complex. I consider it one of the most impressive developments from Leaf ever. You have the ability to do far more in camera than with any other MFDB, and yet it is so simple to operate. This could have been a disaster - many functions, touch screen, but instead it is elegant, fast, and seamless. Nearly everyone I show it to is very impressed at the Aptus GUI. I'm curious if there was something in particular that you found complicated?
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190609\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I think the on camera/DB set should be simple and accurate, without drawing a lot of intention, especially when on location. Leaf's GUI is great, for some aspect, e.g. it's very creative, very powerful. But it's not convenient, at least to me. If it's operated by buttons, we can set it even blindly, without search and locate my finger on the screen. For instance, after I shoot one photo--especially when on location, which has a complex light condition--I always want to check the histogram, surely I want to check it with just a click, but not a search on the screen. This may be just ONE second difference, but it cost.
I think put some buttons on the side should be great.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190615\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Dustblue:
That is exactly one of the strengths of the Aptus GUI. Taking your example, you can check the histogram easily just by clicking the "user thumbwheel" located on the upper right on the Aptus. You can do this without looking, it's right there. Also, you can just leave the histogram visable if you like and all following shots will show it. I believe this is how the Aptus comes out of the box by default. Dial forward to see the histogram, or dial back to easily scroll through images on the LCD.
But that "user thumbwheel" can also be programmed for any number of instantly accessible functions - whatever you prefer. This is an example of the elegance of the system, and perhaps with some more time and experience this would have been a plus for you rather than a minus.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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wow, I didn't know that! the leaf dealer in beijing didn't mention that thumbwheel at all! thank you for your info. so it's really not a good idea to just use it for 2 hours and then make the dicision.I'll delete the GUI part of my article.
Dustblue:
That is exactly one of the strengths of the Aptus GUI. Taking your example, you can check the histogram easily just by clicking the "user thumbwheel" located on the upper right on the Aptus. You can do this without looking, it's right there. Also, you can just leave the histogram visable if you like and all following shots will show it. I believe this is how the Aptus comes out of the box by default. Dial forward to see the histogram, or dial back to easily scroll through images on the LCD.
But that "user thumbwheel" can also be programmed for any number of instantly accessible functions - whatever you prefer. This is an example of the elegance of the system, and perhaps with some more time and experience this would have been a plus for you rather than a minus.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190629\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Dustblue:
That is exactly one of the strengths of the Aptus GUI. Taking your example, you can check the histogram easily just by clicking the "user thumbwheel" located on the upper right on the Aptus. You can do this without looking, it's right there. Also, you can just leave the histogram visable if you like and all following shots will show it. I believe this is how the Aptus comes out of the box by default. Dial forward to see the histogram, or dial back to easily scroll through images on the LCD.
But that "user thumbwheel" can also be programmed for any number of instantly accessible functions - whatever you prefer. This is an example of the elegance of the system, and perhaps with some more time and experience this would have been a plus for you rather than a minus.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190629\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I agree that the Aptus has the most intuitive interface of any camera I've used and the ability to click white balance and lock it into the back is just off the scale good.
What Leaf needs to do is 1. source a much better lcd (this holds true for all medium format) and 2. make it so the lcd on the back will operate while tethered.
The Aptus is so close to being great, then things like #2 just break your brains when your working fast.
Everybody that shoots medium format for commerce will eventually tether, maybe not all the time, but since all medium format lcd's are challanged, for really complex lighting you need to see a good representation of an image so that requires a computer.
It can wear you out runing back and forth between camera and computer looking to see an image, even if you just want to see if somebody moving fast does not have their head cropped off, or is in focus.
In changing light your always yelling over to the tech, uh, go to 100, no now try 200 iso, no, back to 100, where this should be a photogrpaher enbabled function, tethered or not.
Once tethered the Aptus loses it's value of that great interface and your stuck running every function from the computer.
JR
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I think the on camera/DB set should be simple and accurate, without drawing a lot of intention, especially when on location. Leaf's GUI is great, for some aspect, e.g. it's very creative, very powerful. But it's not convenient, at least to me. If it's operated by buttons, we can set it even blindly, without search and locate my finger on the screen. For instance, after I shoot one photo--especially when on location, which has a complex light condition--I always want to check the histogram, surely I want to check it with just a click, but not a search on the screen. This may be just ONE second difference, but it cost.
I think put some buttons on the side should be great.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190615\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The histogram is probably the thing I miss most of not working with the Aptus anymore. It is big, very well visible even in the channels and it can be had on the screen after any shot without having to click a button or by clicking the wheel-like button on the side.
Man... I would be so happy if my Hasselblad would have a histogram like the Aptus (there are some other things as well as there are things that I wished my Leaf would have when I still used the Leaf ).
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The histogram is probably the thing I miss most of not working with the Aptus anymore. It is big, very well visible even in the channels and it can be had on the screen after any shot without having to click a button or by clicking the wheel-like button on the side.
Man... I would be so happy if my Hasselblad would have a histogram like the Aptus (there are some other things as well as there are things that I wished my Leaf would have when I still used the Leaf ).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190644\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The other thing that I miss since working with the Aptus ( here in the US ) is the really amazing
customer and technical service offered by Leaf America.
It is extremely simple (and I am not sure why the other back manufacturers don't have the same support model)....you call Rick Adshead @ Leaf technical and whatever the problem, it is addressed in a professional and prompt manner. I think this is his only job.........to take care of the existing customers' issues and questions. Keep in mind digital backs are evolving creatures: not all problems are solveable for all clients.
All back manufacturers have some sort of a swap warranty.......and between the dealer and the manufacturer most issues are solvable.
I am not trying to bust anyones chops...
On the contrary, I have had very good service experiences with the backs I have used from Phase,Leaf & Sinar........most of the people involved in this industry really go the extra mile!
I just think that the structure that Leaf has implemented works well for the existing customer.
In addition to solving issues and problems, it allows a dialog to occur between the user and the manufacturer's representative........in the long term it builds a trust and may be brand loyalty.
Other manufacturers use a sort of outdated model of contacting the dealer, dealer determines
if problem needs to be addressed by manufacturer, then it is addressed by the manufacturer.
Why should I have to bother my dealer who is probably in the middle of a sales pitch about an
issue that could be dealt with by the manufacturer's rep much more effeciently?
If there are issues or questions, the manufacturer should address them in a direct manner without
having to go through older established business structures that are not in the consumers'
best interest or convenience............we as photographers (independent business people) are having to constantly modify or adjust the way we run our businesses to the ambient climate.
A streamlined Customer service should be viewed as a marketing opportunity by the manufacturer to the existing clients as well as the potential new buyers
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I totally agree with you. I am not sure who is the Rick Adshead in Europe or if there is one. I simply emailed him with questions and got answered the same day (mostly), with solutions I might add.
This is something every manufacturer should implement.
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I hope to see the 90º finder tomorrow at Leaf's Open House at Shoot Digital here in NYC.
I'll report back if I discover anything else interesting.
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The 90º finder did NOT make an appearance.
The heft and weight of the 180mm 2.8 AFD did NOT flex the the grip/handle.
Autofocus was very quick, but a bit noisy like early Nikon AF.
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The 90º finder did NOT make an experience. ???????????????
Please explain.
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Oops...correction made:
90º finder did not make an appearance.
I believe Thierry said F&H going to manufacture now or soon.
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Now that makes more sense!
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I asked to see it, but perhaps the 150mm F4 AFD Tele-Xenar isn't available, either.
I forgot to ask if the RGB white balance sensor has been enabled, yet.
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I asked to see it, but perhaps the 150mm F4 AFD Tele-Xenar isn't available, either.
I forgot to ask if the RGB white balance sensor has been enabled, yet.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=191484\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
90º is not available yet. first evaluation units are expected this month.
150mm f4 AF-D Tele-Xenar is not available yet (no confirmed date)
RGB sensor is not enabled yet (no date)
Yair
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RGB sensor is not enabled yet (no date)(Leaf Afi)
However it is with the Sinar Hy6
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Please correct me if I'm wrong.
I believe you are, as both cameras use the same firmware and the only mechanical difference is the battery and its contacts.
Yair
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Hi Yair,
I think we have to wait till Thierry checks in.
Thierry if you're out there,any comment on this?
Cheers,
Willem.
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Hi Yair,
I think we have to wait till Thierry checks in.
Thierry if you're out there,any comment on this?
Cheers,
Willem.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=191560\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No problem, although our information comes from the same place...mine is true to last Thursday when I was at F&H.
Yair
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The RGB sensor is enabled in the Hy6 camera itself. What is not, is the interpretation of these RGB values delivered by the camera sensor into the digital back and applied to the files/images: this needs a firmware modification/update.
I do not have any ETA for this implementation.
Best regards,
Thierry
RGB sensor is not enabled yet (no date)(Leaf Afi)
However it is with the Sinar Hy6
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=191499\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I can add/confirm here from today's information: first units for evaluation are expected within the next days.
Thierry
90º is not available yet. first evaluation units are expected this month.
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=191497\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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is the 50mm or 180mm AFD lens available now?
Thanks.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=191614\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
They are. I have used both of them, the 50 is quite compact, compare to the Zeiss 45/2.8 lens for 645 or HC 50 for Hasselblad which I also use, the 50mm from Schneider is a lot lighter. The lens hood of 50 and 180 is the same so it is of great convenience when travel. The 180/2.8 lens is wonderfully built, focus fast, sharp, render really nice pictures. Both lenses balance very well on Hy6, all focus very fast. I thought both have been out long while ago.
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The lens hood of 50 and 180 is the same so it is of great convenience when travel.
The 50mm AF-D and 180mm AF-D both have 95mm filter thread size. Their outer bayonet seems to be the same, but the hoods for each are different:
[attachment=6245:attachment]
I thought both have been out long while ago.
The latest AF-D versions (without aperture ring) are now just becoming available.
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They are. I have used both of them, the 50 is quite compact, compare to the Zeiss 45/2.8 lens for 645 or HC 50 for Hasselblad which I also use, the 50mm from Schneider is a lot lighter. The lens hood of 50 and 180 is the same so it is of great convenience when travel. The 180/2.8 lens is wonderfully built, focus fast, sharp, render really nice pictures. Both lenses balance very well on Hy6, all focus very fast. I thought both have been out long while ago.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=191621\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Add to that, I would also like to report that the Hy6+e75 is a very effective combination, from my ow experience using it in studio and in location. I have no problem with the screen even under bright sunlight, on beach of Thailand in April, although a lager screen is certainly welcome. And after many years using a angle finder, I am also surprised that the waist level is not as difficult as I anticipate when shooting under direct sunlight.
The camera layout is very easy to work with, AF is fast and accurate, tethered shooting is of moderate speed and I hope the Xposure will speed it further. However when shooting to CF card, the camera is very responsive, easily as fast as any other back I have used.
The overall balance of the camera is wonderful, easy to handle, shoot, check on the histogram, directing the models, back on shooting. The overall control of the Hy6 is fast, changing the setting is as fast as any smaller DSLR if not faster. The rotatable handle is really helpful since many times I was shooting at a difficult angles that will be very difficult to shoot otherwise.
The screen is one of the most surprising feature I found on Hy6/e75 - thanks for the rotation feature of the back. When shooting a 645 format, the viewfinder is restricted to a pre-decided view that sometimes I can miss some important alternative composition; with both orientation of the view both visible on the screen can actually allow me to quickly go for the optimized composition.
I also switched the back orientation often outdoor, on beach or at poolside, found that not to be a problem, once you are getting to it, it is just a matter of about 2 seconds.
Overall, comparing my experience with H3D39 and P45+ on Contax, the Hy6+e75 is a very competitive system and great image quality.
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oh I forgot the biggest issue about leaf. the HOT wind, yes, the HOT wind. I always use the wl finder, and I always put my head up the camera when I work, thus the hot wind from the DB is blowing straightly to my face. Personally I really cant stand that, I am easy to sweat, with leaf back I will have to wipe my face every few minutes in summer...I cant imagine that...
Hopefully, not like this guy....
(http://www.tuaw.com/media/2006/03/ballmer.jpg)
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Add to that, I would also like to report that the Hy6+e75 is a very effective combination, from my ow experience using it in studio and in location. IOverall, comparing my experience with H3D39 and P45+ on Contax, the Hy6+e75 is a very competitive system and great image quality.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=191629\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Just close to H3D and P45+ C645 or better???
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hahaha
Hopefully, not like this guy....
(http://www.tuaw.com/media/2006/03/ballmer.jpg)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=191630\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Both Schneider 50mm AFD and 180mm AFD are available.
Thierry
is the 50mm or 180mm AFD lens available now?
Thanks.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=191614\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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FYI:
The Sinar Hy6 45° prism finder is available
- its colour is black anthracite, same as the camera body.
- the rotation/revolution of the Sinarback IS POSSIBLE with this 45° finder, when using the Hy6 revolving adapter, in the contrary to what as been claimed.
Best regards,
Thierry
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Excellent news, Thierry.
Hopefully, Sinarbacks are black anthracite color as well.
The Sinar Hy6 45° prism finder is available
- its colour is black anthracite, same as the camera body.
- the rotation/revolution of the Sinarback IS POSSIBLE with this 45° finder, when using the Hy6 revolving adapter, in the contrary to what as been claimed.
Best regards,
Thierry
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- the rotation/revolution of the Sinarback IS POSSIBLE with this 45° finder, when using the Hy6 revolving adapter, in the contrary to what as been claimed.
Great!
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FYI:
- the rotation/revolution of the Sinarback IS POSSIBLE with this 45° finder, when using the Hy6 revolving adapter, in the contrary to what as been claimed.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=191812\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Be better news if that also came with LC-11
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Contact our distributor Mr. Hugh Wong from PSC Ltd. in Guangzhou:
Guangdong PSC LTD
Jinsui Building, Suite C, 9/Floor
900 Guangzhou DaDao Zhong Road
Guangzhou 510620
China
Phone: (+86) 20 3886 2726
Fax: (+86) 20 3826 2390
E-mail: [email protected]
Website: www.pscuby.com
The 2 lenses AFD 50mm and AFD 180mm are available from them.
Best regards,
Thierry
both lens are NOT available in Shanghai China. Very strange.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=191884\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Dear xinchenc,
I have no ETA for the 120mm Macro.
Best regards,
Thierry
How about the 120m Macro? Any news?
Thanks.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=192023\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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The 90mm macro is more than enough. It is an excellent lens!
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Can we say the 90mm Marko is OK enough?
It all depends what you're photographing (girls, insects, etc.)
and how much working distance is necessary.
Other options are:
• the manual focus Zeiss 120mm f4 Macro
and
• the Schneider 150mm f4.6 Apo Makro Symmar (requires 67mm extension tube or auto bellows)
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• the Schneider Apo Makro Symmar (requires 67mm extension tube or auto bellows) is no longer in production.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=192283\")
There's one for sale here at a bargain price too...
[a href=\"http://www.robertwhite.co.uk/product.asp?P_ID=1953&PT_ID=477&P=Rolleiflex]http://www.robertwhite.co.uk/product.asp?P...77&P=Rolleiflex[/url]