Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: dustblue on April 06, 2008, 10:13:55 am
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Hi all,
I'm a photographer mainly shooting fashion, I have a rollei6008II and a SA40/3.5 for most of my works, and for editorial I use a canon 5d. Now I'm seriously considering a digital back solution because the film scanning/processing is really a wast of time and money. As long as my rollei system, I'm looking into a leaf afi/sinar hy6. I know that they both use dalsa ccd, but what's the difference? what about their image quality, and how about compare their softwares? well I know sinar have an evolving back, that's really attractive, in the mean time it seems that leaf wont give a evolving adaptor unless they redesign their afi...
Thanks in advance, and welcome any reply about leaf and sinar!
ps:SA40 is really amazing and my all time favourite...
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Don't get too excited about the revolving back for the Sinar or the Leaf product with respect to the Hy6/AFi. It will only work if you use the WLF. Without a doubt, the best finder solution for both Hy6/AFi platform is the 45 degree finder. The revolving mount will not work with either the Hy6/AFi as there is not enough clearance under the 45 degree finder.
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thanks guy, since I use 6008 with the wlf, the not enough clearance under 45degree finder wont be a problem for me:)
Don't get too excited about the revolving back for the Sinar or the Leaf product with respect to the Hy6/AFi. It will only work if you use the WLF. Without a doubt, the best finder solution for both Hy6/AFi platform is the 45 degree finder. The revolving mount will not work with either the Hy6/AFi as there is not enough clearance under the 45 degree finder.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187425\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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All of the information you seek is strewn throughout the medium format forum threads here at luminous-landscape, if you take the time to go back over the past year of posts.
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hi Billy,
I do searched through out your 313 posts from now to nov.2006 but I didn't find about the comparison about atpus75 and emotion75...so if you got some conclusion, I would really appreciate that you could give me a hint:)
I read many many threads here too, it's my first post here but not first time here.
Hello,
All of the information you seek is strewn throughout the medium format forum threads here at luminous-landscape, if you take the time to go back over the past year of posts.
I have used both the Aptus75 & eMotion75lv extensively, as well as the AFi-7 and Hy6, so read my comments before I delete them.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187435\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Hi all,
I'm a photographer mainly shooting fashion, I have a rollei6008II and a SA40/3.5 for most of my works, and for editorial I use a canon 5d. Now I'm seriously considering a digital back solution because the film scanning/processing is really a wast of time and money. As long as my rollei system, I'm looking into a leaf afi/sinar hy6. I know that they both use dalsa ccd, but what's the difference? what about their image quality, and how about compare their softwares? well I know sinar have an evolving back, that's really attractive, in the mean time it seems that leaf wont give a evolving adaptor unless they redesign their afi...
Thanks in advance, and welcome any reply about leaf and sinar!
ps:SA40 is really amazing and my all time favourite...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187411\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm sure that you can get excellent results with both backs.
One big difference which may make up your mind is that the Sinar back uses adapters and the Leaf back has a fixed mount. This may or may not influence your decision. What it means is that you could use a Sinar back on the Rollei today (the same combination which I have) and then if you want to add the Hy6 at a later date you need only get the Hy6 adapter. You could then keep the 6008 as a backup body.
Yes, Sinar has the rotating adapter which looks very interesting and is another selling point.
The software is a matter of opinion. I haven't used the Leaf software and Sinar is releasing a whole new software package tomorrow. With this new software, Sinar will use DNG as the RAW format meaning you can pretty much use your favourite image processing software with the images.
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Another forum you may want to check is hasselbladinfo.com - has some discussion of non-H cameras and backs.
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Don't get too excited about the revolving back for the Sinar or the Leaf product with respect to the Hy6/AFi. It will only work if you use the WLF.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187425\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It will also work with the 90 degree finder, afaik.
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Thank you foto-z,
That's exactly the information I want to get! ummm, keep my 6008 as a backup, sound like a good choice. well I think the only problem is that here in china we have lots of phase dealers and leaf dealers, but it seems that the after sell support from sinar is somehow weak. so always wo can not get something perfect ...
I'm sure that you can get excellent results with both backs.
One big difference which may make up your mind is that the Sinar back uses adapters and the Leaf back has a fixed mount. This may or may not influence your decision. What it means is that you could use a Sinar back on the Rollei today (the same combination which I have) and then if you want to add the Hy6 at a later date you need only get the Hy6 adapter. You could then keep the 6008 as a backup body.
Yes, Sinar has the rotating adapter which looks very interesting and is another selling point.
The software is a matter of opinion. I haven't used the Leaf software and Sinar is releasing a whole new software package tomorrow. With this new software, Sinar will use DNG as the RAW format meaning you can pretty much use your favourite image processing software with the images.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187447\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thank you foto-z,
That's exactly the information I want to get! ummm, keep my 6008 as a backup, sound like a good choice. well I think the only problem is that here in china we have lots of phase dealers and leaf dealers, but it seems that the after sell support from sinar is somehow weak. so always wo can not get something perfect ...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187456\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Please contact Thierry (thsinar) about this. He is based in Thailand, I believe, and has been very helpful to many Sinar users regardless of location.
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Yes I've already thought about that, thank you again:)
Please contact Thierry (thsinar) about this. He is based in Thailand, I believe, and has been very helpful to many Sinar users regardless of location.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187460\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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It will also work with the 90 degree finder, afaik.
You are most likely correct. It does look like there maybe enough clearance for the 90 degree finder. Personally, the 45 degree finder is a dream. You would think the guy who designed the 45 degree finder would have pulled his head out of his ass long enough to ask himself about clearance issues with a revolving back before he began the design. And then there are the clowns who approved the design and let it go into production .
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You are most likely correct. It does look like there maybe enough clearance for the 90 degree finder. Personally, the 45 degree finder is a dream. You would think the guy who designed the 45 degree finder would have pulled his head out of his ass long enough to ask himself about clearance issues with a revolving back before he began the design. And then there are the clowns who approved the design and let it go into production .
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187488\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
He is correct about the 90 finder. And you don't seem to have read much about the 45 finder in the HY6 thread because it has been pointed out that it is just an adaptation of the old 45 finder and not a redesign. Therefor it was not originally designed with a revolving back in mind. That there is not a new 45 finder for the camera is sad but true.
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Hi all,
... what about their image quality, and how about compare their softwares? ...
ps:SA40 is really amazing and my all time favourite...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187411\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Before to buy the Hy6/e75LV combo I tried the Afi/75. I came from the 1Ds MKII and I was (and still now) working into furniture catalog photography where a lot of my direct competitors still uses 4x5 film; my main disappointing looking at my printed (cmyk) job were the color rendition of shadows, the gap of color graduality on the wood surfaces when comparing my Canon works with 4x5 jobs. Well, once I tried the Afi/75 and I opened the files I said: oh my God, we are still at the same point!! don't get me wrong, the Leaf files were a lot better than 1Ds II but they also showed to my eyes the same attitude to "close" shadows and to densify the darkest tones. This doesn't happens with Sinar files converted with Brumbear software in DNG: the closest file to film look! that's my opinion, of course.
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And you don't seem to have read much about the 45 finder in the HY6 thread because it has been pointed out that it is just an adaptation of the old 45 finder and not a redesign. Therefor it was not originally designed with a revolving back in mind. That there is not a new 45 finder for the camera is sad but true.
Your right. I missed the adaptation bit on the other thread. I take back what I said about the designer. Then it's just a shoddy, half-ass, Marketing thing. Like you said, too bad.
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Dear H1/A75,
I don't know whoi told you this, but it is false and inaccurate information:
the Sinar revolving adapter DOES rotate with the 90° finder, as I had stated it already and since long ago. THERE IS enough clearance for this.
Best regards,
Thierry
Don't get too excited about the revolving back for the Sinar or the Leaf product with respect to the Hy6/AFi. It will only work if you use the WLF. Without a doubt, the best finder solution for both Hy6/AFi platform is the 45 degree finder. The revolving mount will not work with either the Hy6/AFi as there is not enough clearance under the 45 degree finder.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187425\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Dear H1/A75,
I don't know whoi told you this, but it is false and inaccurate information:
the Sinar revolving adapter DOES rotate with the 90° finder, as I had stated it already and since long ago. THERE IS enough clearance for this.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187529\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Understood Thierry, I shouldn't have thrown the 90 degree finder into the mix. The 90 degree finder was engineered keeping this feature in mind with the Sinar Adaptor Plate. I'm sure the 90 degree finder will work fine if Leaf comes out with a revolving mount, also. It's just beyond me that they would not have re-engineered the 45 degree finder for the revolving backs. The 45 degree finder gets the photographer very comfortably involved with the subject matter, much more so than the 90 degree finder, IMO.
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Before to buy the Hy6/e75LV combo I tried the Afi/75. I came from the 1Ds MKII and I was (and still now) working into furniture catalog photography where a lot of my direct competitors still uses 4x5 film; my main disappointing looking at my printed (cmyk) job were the color rendition of shadows, the gap of color graduality on the wood surfaces when comparing my Canon works with 4x5 jobs. Well, once I tried the Afi/75 and I opened the files I said: oh my God, we are still at the same point!! don't get me wrong, the Leaf files were a lot better than 1Ds II but they also showed to my eyes the same attitude to "close" shadows and to densify the darkest tones. This doesn't happens with Sinar files converted with Brumbear software in DNG: the closest file to film look! that's my opinion, of course.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187499\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Favalim
With regard to the Brumbaer Workflow, you bring up an often overlooked function........the quality
and color rendition of the digital representation.
Its easy to overlook this "basic" but very critical function, and get caught up in all the features that are marketed by the different back manufacturers.
The Brumbaer DNG workflow works astonishingly well for an architectural/interior/landscape shooters...........it is interesting to learn that the Brumbaer DNG works for studio shooters that
may demand more color consistency and accuracy than location shooters
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Hi all,
I'm a photographer mainly shooting fashion, I have a rollei6008II and a SA40/3.5 for most of my works, and for editorial I use a canon 5d. Now I'm seriously considering a digital back solution because the film scanning/processing is really a wast of time and money. As long as my rollei system, I'm looking into a leaf afi/sinar hy6. I know that they both use dalsa ccd, but what's the difference? what about their image quality, and how about compare their softwares? well I know sinar have an evolving back, that's really attractive, in the mean time it seems that leaf wont give a evolving adaptor unless they redesign their afi...
Thanks in advance, and welcome any reply about leaf and sinar!
ps:SA40 is really amazing and my all time favourite...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187411\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Dustblue welcome on board!
My advice to anyone wishing to buy a new digital solution and who's trying to decide between two options, Is to try and compare them side by side, if possible in your own environment/ studio and according to your typical type of work.
Specifically for the Leaf AFi along with Leaf Capture 11 the pluses to take note of are very fast capture rate (faster than any comparable camera+back system, both into CF cards and into a computer) and also the fact that the previews come up very quickly on your monitor when shooting tethered to any size screen (including working on 2 screens at the same time). There are other features that are relevant to fashion work that you will be able to appreciate during the test, I am sure, such as the Loupe tool for quick focus check on thumbnails and an effective Moire removal tool.
Hope this helps
Yair
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I've already contact the sinar dealer here in Beijing and I will try hy6/75lv next week. you provided the useful information, thank you
Before to buy the Hy6/e75LV combo I tried the Afi/75. I came from the 1Ds MKII and I was (and still now) working into furniture catalog photography where a lot of my direct competitors still uses 4x5 film; my main disappointing looking at my printed (cmyk) job were the color rendition of shadows, the gap of color graduality on the wood surfaces when comparing my Canon works with 4x5 jobs. Well, once I tried the Afi/75 and I opened the files I said: oh my God, we are still at the same point!! don't get me wrong, the Leaf files were a lot better than 1Ds II but they also showed to my eyes the same attitude to "close" shadows and to densify the darkest tones. This doesn't happens with Sinar files converted with Brumbear software in DNG: the closest file to film look! that's my opinion, of course.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187499\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Just now the sinar dealer in Beijing told me that sinar software is good at furniture/interior, while phase one is good at portrait rendition. I have used p45 and p30 with c1 and I really cant agree with him about the phase one software. I want to know how do you guys think about that? do you think sinar software is weak at skin tone?
Favalim
With regard to the Brumbaer Workflow, you bring up an often overlooked function........the quality
and color rendition of the digital representation.
Its easy to overlook this "basic" but very critical function, and get caught up in all the features that are marketed by the different back manufacturers.
The Brumbaer DNG workflow works astonishingly well for an architectural/interior/landscape shooters...........it is interesting to learn that the Brumbaer DNG works for studio shooters that
may demand more color consistency and accuracy than location shooters
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187576\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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foto-z:
I'm thinking about the adaptor to 6008, can you put emotion back on it both vertically and horizontally or just horizontally? If you can use it both vertically and horizontally, I think I can just buy a sinar back, which will save a lot money.
besides the AFD lenses are really horrible at prices. the 50afd and 180afd together are almost the price of a p30+! I think I wont buy them unless I want to survive just by one kidney...
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Dear dustblue,
The Sinar software is as reliable as any other for skintones, whatever you have heard or been told: it is all a question of colour profiling and adjustments. The Sinar software allows to make one's own profile for different rendering.
Especially here comes in play the fact that Sinar raw files are not "twicked" with either sharpening or added/mofified contrast in the raw files (see another tread about this subject = http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....c=24433&st=20): (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=24433&st=20):) this leaves you full latitude and freedom to achieve YOUR needs.
Saying that a sofware is weak at this or that tones is showing no knowledge of what such a software and such raw files are.
Best regards,
Thierry
Just now the sinar dealer in Beijing told me that sinar software is good at furniture/interior, while phase one is good at portrait rendition. I have used p45 and p30 with c1 and I really cant agree with him about the phase one software. I want to know how do you guys think about that? do you think sinar software is weak at skin tone?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187590\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Dear dustblue,
yes, the 6008/eMotion adapter does allow either vertical or horizontal position.
The nice option with the Sinar Hy6 is that you can use more than 40 "older" Rolleiflex 600x lenses, either second-hand at attractive prices or then new for those still in production: you don't need to buy the new AFD lenses produced for this camera.
Best regards,
Thierry
foto-z:
I'm thinking about the adaptor to 6008, can you put emotion back on it both vertically and horizontally or just horizontally? If you can use it both vertically and horizontally, I think I can just buy a sinar back, which will save a lot money.
besides the AFD lenses are really horrible at prices. the 50afd and 180afd together are almost the price of a p30+! I think I wont buy them unless I want to survive just by one kidney...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187593\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thanks for your information!
I will try Afi of course. the dealer in Guangzhou will contack me when an available model come to beijing.
Dustblue welcome on board!
My advice to anyone wishing to buy a new digital solution and who's trying to decide between two options, Is to try and compare them side by side, if possible in your own environment/ studio and according to your typical type of work.
Specifically for the Leaf AFi along with Leaf Capture 11 the pluses to take note of are very fast capture rate (faster than any comparable camera+back system, both into CF cards and into a computer) and also the fact that the previews come up very quickly on your monitor when shooting tethered to any size screen (including working on 2 screens at the same time). There are other features that are relevant to fashion work that you will be able to appreciate during the test, I am sure, such as the Loupe tool for quick focus check on thumbnails and an effective Moire removal tool.
Hope this helps
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187583\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Just now the sinar dealer in Beijing told me that sinar software is good at furniture/interior, while phase one is good at portrait rendition. I have used p45 and p30 with c1 and I really cant agree with him about the phase one software. I want to know how do you guys think about that? do you think sinar software is weak at skin tone?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187590\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
On the contrary !
I would like to tell you, that my experience with Phase One P20 and C1 sofware, results in very good product colors, but no correct skin tones, with whatever profile used! Skin colors with a personalised profile where OK, to some extend, but then the color of lips where off, often magenta ...
On the contrary, one day working with an emotion75 was the solution.
Standard out of the box ALL colours where perfect, skin tones, products, ALL of them!
I used Brumbear to convert to DNG then ACR to PS CS3.
Incredible depth in the files too, in comparison to Phase One!
Result, I will sell my P20 and buy emotion75LV very soon !!!
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At this point, all the hardware from the different manufacturers seems to be fairly equivalent, but the software can be very different. You should shoot the backs and see how easy/hard it is to get the skin tone you want for your culture out of the combination.
If the Sinar/Jenoptik backs can use DNG, then you should be able to go via ACR and Lightroom as well, which might allow you a familiar workflow.
Edmund
Dear dustblue,
The Sinar software is as reliable as any other for skintones, whatever you have heard or been told: it is all a question of colour profiling and adjustments. The Sinar software allows to make one's own profile for different rendering.
Especially here comes in play the fact that Sinar raw files are not "twicked" with either sharpening or added/mofified contrast in the raw files (see another tread about this subject = http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....c=24433&st=20): (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=24433&st=20):) this leaves you full latitude and freedom to achieve YOUR needs.
Saying that a sofware is weak at this or that tones is showing no knowledge of what such a software and such raw files are.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187596\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Hi Thierry:
Thanks for your reply and I really know what your are talking about. Any way accurate color could not be got just depend on profile. This is a subtle question.
Dear dustblue,
The Sinar software is as reliable as any other for skintones, whatever you have heard or been told: it is all a question of colour profiling and adjustments. The Sinar software allows to make one's own profile for different rendering.
Especially here comes in play the fact that Sinar raw files are not "twicked" with either sharpening or added/mofified contrast in the raw files (see another tread about this subject = http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....c=24433&st=20): (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=24433&st=20):) this leaves you full latitude and freedom to achieve YOUR needs.
Saying that a sofware is weak at this or that tones is showing no knowledge of what such a software and such raw files are.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187596\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Yes, certainly not or may be not with the "default" profiles provided: you need to create your own profile (e.g. with Gretag's Profile Maker SW, etc ..., or by contacting Edmund!). Profiles can be edited and twicked until you get what you want.
best regards,
Thierry
Hi Thierry:
Any way accurate color could not be got just depend on profile. This is a subtle question.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187610\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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We got exactly the same opinion about c1
On the contrary !
I would like to tell you, that my experience with Phase One P20 and C1 sofware, results in very good product colors, but no correct skin tones, with whatever profile used! Skin colors with a personalised profile where OK, to some extend, but then the color of lips where off, often magenta ...
On the contrary, one day working with an emotion75 was the solution.
Standard out of the box ALL colours where perfect, skin tones, products, ALL of them!
I used Brumbear to convert to DNG then ACR to PS CS3.
Incredible depth in the files too, in comparison to Phase One!
Result, I will sell my P20 and buy emotion75LV very soon !!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187603\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I does not even take one month: Sinar Hy6 cameras and eMotion 75 backs are in stock. What might take a bit longer may be some of the new AFD lenses, but basically the 50mm, the 80mm and the 180mm are in stock as well.
Once order placed, we are able to ship out within a few days. The dealer might have added some extra time to be on the safe side.
Best regards,
Thierry
I suggest you buy Sinar Hy6 75LV, though I have order a Leaf AFi7.
Sinar Hy6 75LV is cheaper and, the most important, Sinar dealer say they can deliver it to you within one month! I have been waiting for my AFi7 for 6 weeks! That is the case.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187625\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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yep it's cheaper,
hy6 vs afi7 = 250k rmb vs 290k rmb
haha
I suggest you buy Sinar Hy6 75LV, though I have order a Leaf AFi7.
Sinar Hy6 75LV is cheaper and, the most important, Sinar dealer say they can deliver it to you within one month! I have been waiting for my AFi7 for 6 weeks! That is the case.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=187625\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]