Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Digital Image Processing => Topic started by: jerryrock on February 22, 2008, 11:56:16 pm
-
http://www.news.com/8301-13580_3-9875221-3...g=2547-1_3-0-20 (http://www.news.com/8301-13580_3-9875221-39.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20)
A CNET poll posted today by Stephen Shankland indicates that out of 5227 people that responded, 63.8% prefer Apple's Aperture compared to 36.2% that prefer Adobe Lightroom.
I wonder how much of this reaction has to do with the release of Aperture 2.0?
-
I wonder how much of this reaction has to do with the release of Aperture 2.0?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=176817\")
Or the fact that Apple posted a link to the story on their www.apple.com/startpage for Feb 22nd, 2008?
See: [a href=\"http://photoshopnews.com/2008/02/22/cnet-aperturelightroom-poll-skewed/]CNET Aperture/Lightroom Poll Skewed?[/url]
Just saying....
:~)
-
Self-selecting polls like this one are always suspect, and shouldn't be considered statistically valid. Jeff's link also points out a way how the results can be skewed.
To loosely quote Mark Twain, "there are lies, damn lies and statistics." As one who uses statistical information for sales purposes, I can definitely attest to that.
Paul
-
CNET Poll update:
6535 polled
64.3% prefer Apple's Aperture
35.7% prefer Adobe Lightroom
The poll was significant enough for Mr. Schewe to address in his Photoshop News article where he cries foul play and urges fans to vote for Lightroom. (article response)
dooode
-
Mr. Shewe
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=176901\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ya know, at some point, assuming you actually wish to be addressing me, ya might want to learn how to spell my name correctly dooode...ain't that hard...it's spelled the way it is in my screen name.
And just to be sure, it wasn't till I discovered that Apple placed the story on their main /startpage that I bothered to write about it a 2nd time. And no, it ain't like I think the poll is significant. I actually think the whole thing is hilarious!
-
News flash. Just saw a poll that said more people eat at (and prefer) McDonalds than the French Laundry in Napa. When is Keller going to learn how to make a decent burger!
-
I have just conducted a poll of Windows users who use either Aperture or Lightroom, and, astonishingly, 100% of those queried preferred Lightroom!
Now, where can I publish my results?
-
I have just conducted a poll of Windows users who use either Aperture or Lightroom, and, astonishingly, 100% of those queried preferred Lightroom!
Now, where can I publish my results?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=176909\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
How about the French Laundry in Napa!
-
I have more info, a vast (100% population coverage) poll has just finished at my home. After asking all those living here whether they prefer LR or Aperture, the answer was DCRAW.
-
http://www.news.com/8301-13580_3-9875221-3...g=2547-1_3-0-20 (http://www.news.com/8301-13580_3-9875221-39.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20)
A CNET poll posted today by Stephen Shankland indicates that out of 5227 people that responded, 63.8% prefer Apple's Aperture compared to 36.2% that prefer Adobe Lightroom.
I wonder how much of this reaction has to do with the release of Aperture 2.0?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=176817\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Most of my Mac friends do use Aperture. Even version 1.
Whenever we get together, I watch then work in what appears to be a fine application. Although I prefer Bridge/ACR for my workflow, it does seem the majority of Mac users her on LL seem to use Lightroom.
I would love to see a poll here on LL to see what all the users (Windows/Mac) use as their usual Workflow; with Aperture, Lightroom, and Bridge/ACR as the three choices.
-
Most of my Mac friends do use Aperture. Even version 1.
Whenever we get together, I watch then work in what appears to be a fine application. Although I prefer Bridge/ACR for my workflow, it does seem the majority of Mac users her on LL seem to use Lightroom.
I would love to see a poll here on LL to see what all the users (Windows/Mac) use as their usual Workflow; with Aperture, Lightroom, and Bridge/ACR as the three choices.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=177062\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Applications like Aperture and Lightroom are in a league of their own combining data asset management with an array of other features for image manipulation. They support tethered shooting and are idea for studio work or managing large image libraries.
I am a loyal Adobe user and have been using Photoshop since version 1. I even beta tested Lightroom in early 2006 but was frustrated waiting for the product release. In the interim I switched from PC to an intel based MacPro and incorporated Aperture in my workflow. This filled the void of a fast image processor while waiting for the universal binary version of Photoshop to be released. I never had a need to go back to Lightroom. The release of Apple Aperture 2.0 definitely puts this product ahead of the Adobe counterpart.
I do agree that polls (and statistics) can be manipulated to reflect just about anything. The real data is in the number of product purchased. This is the true measure of product success, isn't it? It boils down to the almighty dollar and how many each product can produce.
-
[...]
I do agree that polls (and statistics) can be manipulated to reflect just about anything. The real data is in the number of product purchased. This is the true measure of product success, isn't it? It boils down to the almighty dollar and how many each product can produce.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=177084\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[...]
I do agree that polls (and statistics) can be manipulated to reflect just about anything. The real data is in the number of product purchased. This is the true measure of product success, isn't it? It boils down to the almighty dollar and how many each product can produce.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=177084\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Unfortunately, too often polls and their results are conducted by unqualified people to satisfy a curiosity or, worse, to achieve some marketing goals. Statistics are hard to manipulate, the way you design your "poll" isn't.
The truth is that a well done poll is very complex to design. Some posters have already ironically pointed to some obvious problems. Consider also:
-What do they mean by better? (faster? more plugins? more stable? sleeker interface?)
-Who are the people voting? Are they predominantly Mac folks? Pc? Linux?
-How long has Aperture been on the market? How long has Lightroom been on the market?
Also do we want to ignore the large population of pirated Lightrooom/Aperture users?
Sometime lack of evidence is better than bad evidence...
-
News flash. Just saw a poll that said more people eat at (and prefer) McDonalds than the French Laundry in Napa. When is Keller going to learn how to make a decent burger!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=176906\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
And we all know how crap a macdonalds burger is!
-
now, a day later and more 3000 answers the statistics are pretty much the same...no conspiracies, no stolen ballots...not sure why this is so upsetting to some people anyway...i have used LR exclusively and now switched to aperture because 2.0 offers more FOR ME...both are very capable and i am sure LR2.0 will be equal and probably pull ahead in some regard....the best thing is that we have 2 products competing...means more features and a lower price for all...
that said , i am still amazed by those numbers...i am amazed how many people are switching to macs! i think that this is an indication for that....and cnet is not really a maccentric site afaik.....and everybody on a mac should really have a close look at aperture 2.0...one feature that LR will never have is the systemwide integration with ilife and .mac....and some of those things make my life a LOT easier....and it will only get better...
-
cnet is not really a maccentric site afaik.....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=177105\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Exactly...just how many Mac users would have found this poll if Apple hadn't placed the story and a link to the poll on their Feb 22nd /startpage?
-
now, a day later and more 3000 answers the statistics are pretty much the same...no conspiracies, no stolen ballots...not sure why this is so upsetting to some people anyway...i have used LR exclusively and now switched to aperture because 2.0 offers more FOR ME...both are very capable and i am sure LR2.0 will be equal and probably pull ahead in some regard....the best thing is that we have 2 products competing...means more features and a lower price for all...
that said , i am still amazed by those numbers...i am amazed how many people are switching to macs! i think that this is an indication for that....and cnet is not really a maccentric site afaik.....and everybody on a mac should really have a close look at aperture 2.0...one feature that LR will never have is the systemwide integration with ilife and .mac....and some of those things make my life a LOT easier....and it will only get better...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=177105\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't want to start a debate on this, and I am sure anyone who has evaluated both products have made their decisions wisely. The point though is another one. Those garbage pools like the one mentioned in this post, distort the reality, and people such as yourself are led to believe that one software is significantly better than the other. While it may well be the case (once we define what "better" means), I cannot even start to write how unscientific this poll is.
You mention better systemwide integration of Aperture. Now that's certainly a valuable aspect and one that has way more value than the poll.
I can tell you that the results in that poll won't change, but simply stabilize. I also know that they represent a distorted, skewed, un-representative, homogeneous, biased portion of the population of LR/Aperture users.
-
Exactly...just how many Mac users would have found this poll if Apple hadn't placed the story and a link to the poll on their Feb 22nd /startpage?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=177107\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I found the poll from the link in your article!
-
Copied from Cnet:
What's with the phoney poll?: reader comment from walterny
Posted on: February 23, 2008, 4:19 PM PST
Story: Poll: Which is better, Aperture or Lightroom?
I found myself a bit bored yesterday so was reading various web pages. My home page is Apples start page. One of the links is to a CNET "review" of an Apple photographic software product vs an Adobe equivalent product.
http://www.news.com/8301-13580_3-9875221-3...dht&tag=nl.e703 (http://www.news.com/8301-13580_3-9875221-39.html?part=dht&tag=nl.e703)
Titled "Which is better: Aperture or Lightroom?" it states:
"That’s what Stephen Shankland (c|net news) wants to know, and he’d like your help. “With the new Aperture 2 now available and Lightroom just celebrating its first birthday, I thought it opportune to survey readers. What would you buy? What would you advise somebody else?” The polls are open."
So I clicked it and read the review. And noticed the poll. I'm not a user of either software. I noticed that Apple was ahead 64.3% to Adobe's 35.7% with some 2000 plus votes cast. I was feeling mischievous and voted for Adobe, then looked at the results. I also realized that I could vote over and over. So I did. Some 350 times. And all for Adobe. But the strange thing was that while I saw the vote count rise slowly, the percentages of Apple and Adobe remained the same. And I kept refreshing the poll results to see a trend in how the number of votes increased. It was always in a defined time frame. I checked later on that night and noticed that with over 4000 votes there was only 1/10th of a percent difference in the results than earlier in the day. Now it was 64.4% to 35.6%.
I just found myself sitting here today (this afternoon, a day later) and looked at the link again. And strangely enough, today with over 6000 plus votes (three times as many as yesterday), the percentages of Apple to Adobe are exactly the same as they were yesterday give or take one tenth of a percent again. Now 64.2% to 35.8%. Statistically that is an amazing coincidence. And I also noticed that no matter how you vote, the count mysteriously increases by one vote every 10 to 20 seconds, yet the percentages are amazingly similar in over 24 hours of viewing. Now at 7:30pm a day later, it's 64.4% to 35.6%. Statistically it's impossible for that number to remain less than a percent different, let alone less than a tenth of a percent than it was over 24 hours ago. In the marketing industry this is called Astroturfing. Look it up and see that this is an ad disguised as a legit poll. Hint: the HTML for the web page. So is it a real poll because mathematics says it is not? I notified theconsumerist.com of this mystery.
-
I was feeling mischievous and voted for Adobe, then looked at the results. I also realized that I could vote over and over. So I did. Some 350 times.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=177154\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Oldtime Chicago-style machine politics is alive and well on the Internet. Vote early and often!
I'm wondering if they're logging IPs and tossing out "extra" votes within a certain time frame from that IP. It's what I'd do to help keep a poll like this legit.
Paul
-
I have just conducted a poll of Windows users who use either Aperture or Lightroom, and, astonishingly, 100% of those queried preferred Lightroom!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=176909\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Are you saying that some people still haven't seen the light and migrated to OSX?
Cheers,
Bernard
-
Are you saying that some people still haven't seen the light and migrated to OSX?
Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=177181\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Actually, as a long-time Windows user I still strongly believe that Micro$oft's last OS that was ready for market was DOS 5.0. And once M$ started ripping off ideas from the Mac, Apple seems to have started returning the favor by borrowing M$'s habit of letting buying customers do the alpha-testing (note the numerous complaints on the LL forum from those that can't get the latest pussycat from Apple to work with various Adobe products).
Unfortunately, I can't run Photoshop on DOS 5.0, so I have to resort to Windows XP (which is almost ready for Beta testing).
Cheers,
Eric
-
You mention better systemwide integration of Aperture. Now that's certainly a valuable aspect and one that has way more value than the poll. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=177109\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Now hasn't that actually been a major problem with Aperture? New camera updates, rely on OS updates, I believe.
And integration with Adobe apps may be more important. That said LR is not as good as it should be there. Noticably absent from CS3.
-
You'd be surprised how few Aperture users know iLife integration exists or bother using it. I recently helped two Aperture users move to Lightroom and as an aside one asked me about making DVD's. They were really surprised when I showed iDVD reading Aperture previews, so afterwards I asked around. It was mainly "didn't know" and "no need", but I also got two "too consumer" answers from people who had more pro requirements.
John
-
And once M$ started ripping off ideas from the Mac, Apple seems to have started returning the favor by borrowing M$'s habit of letting buying customers do the alpha-testing
Unfortunately, I can't run Photoshop on DOS 5.0, so I have to resort to Windows XP (which is almost ready for Beta testing).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=177213\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I do use XP extensively at work and MS is a very close business partner of ours... I feel that someone has been following me since I posted last night... I am sending this email from a deserted phone booth in a back alley of shanghai... they are close now... arhgg...
-
I do use XP extensively at work and MS is a very close business partner of ours... I feel that someone has been following me since I posted last night... I am sending this email from a deserted phone booth in a back alley of shanghai... they are close now... arhgg...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=177334\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Quick, Bernard! Send all your photographs to me before MS catches you!
-
I don't know if the poll results are skewed. Maybe Apple's website increased the number of respondents but that doesn't prove they skewed the results. Maybe 63% of those people also prefer Aperture.
Well who here DOES prefer Lightroom over Aperture, and why? And if responding, please disclose any ties to Apple or Adobe.
-
I do a lot of work with Apple.
I'm preferring the image quality on Aperture. I'm finding the demosaic is superior - the quality of the noise floor nicer.
Graeme
-
Pollster defends his poll:
http://www.news.com/5208-13580_3-0.html?fo...essageID=381872 (http://www.news.com/5208-13580_3-0.html?forumID=1&threadID=35432&messageID=381872)
-
Golly gee, I wonder...is CNET increasing ad fees as they create worthless drama-drag polls (and articles in their defense) which certainly boost hit numbers to their site?
I think competition is good for everyone, especially for photographers. But when it comes to photography and RAW processing, my vote will always be with Adobe.
-
And yet the difference in the ratio has been less than 0.5% for several days and some 10,000 votes. Statistically unusual, to say the least :-)
-
Pollster defends his poll:
http://www.news.com/5208-13580_3-0.html?fo...essageID=381872 (http://www.news.com/5208-13580_3-0.html?forumID=1&threadID=35432&messageID=381872)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=177618\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
By saying "the greater ballot-stuffing threat is that somebody partisan with a high profile posts a link and all his or her pals/followers/fanboys pile onto the bandwagon."
-
Did any get their Apple store coupons yet?
Just kidding.
Actually there is a sort of poll going on here at LL. Anyone take a look at how many posts and views in the Lightroom forum section vs the Aperture forum section. Sure seems like there is a huge percentage more LR users looking at the stats here.
-
Actually there is a sort of poll going on here at LL. Anyone take a look at how many posts and views in the Lightroom forum section vs the Aperture forum section. Sure seems like there is a huge percentage more LR users looking at the stats here.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=177656\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No no Eric, don't you know all those LR posts don't count? It's well known the LL forum is stuffed full of PC users, isn't it?
-
If Apple's posting a link to the Cnet poll on their startpage is possibly skewing the results, wouldn't Jeff's posting of the Cnet poll to Photoshopnews.com result in a 'counter'skew?
-
No. Why?
-
No. Why?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=177691\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
hmmm, haven't had me mornin' coffee yet but wouldn't Lightroom users be more likely than Aperture users to be on the photoshopnews website?
-
hmmm, haven't had me mornin' coffee yet but wouldn't Lightroom users be more likely than Aperture users to be on the photoshopnews website?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=177697\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well it's not too much a stretch to suggest that Lightroom users are more likely than Aperture users to be on the Lightroomnews website but Photoshopnews? Maybe, maybe not. PSN posts stories about Aperture when there's something news worthy to post.
Its not at all a stretch to believe that CNET gets a lot more hits in one day then PSN.
-
hmmm, haven't had me mornin' coffee yet but wouldn't Lightroom users be more likely than Aperture users to be on the photoshopnews website?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=177697\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
So Jeff's site has the reach of Apple's home page then? Apart from that, his posting did question the poll's very validity, not exactly encouraging those who prefer Lightroom to vote (unlike at AUPN). And come on, we all know what fanboys are like - the result's as skewed as announcing the election only on Fox, disenfranchising the PC-using majority, and then Fox calling the result based on their own early exit polls. Why would Lightroom users even bother?
-
So Jeff's site has the reach of Apple's home page then? Apart from that, his posting did question the poll's very validity, not exactly encouraging those who prefer Lightroom to vote (unlike at AUPN). And come on, we all know what fanboys are like - the result's as skewed as announcing the election only on Fox, disenfranchising the PC-using majority, and then Fox calling the result based on their own early exit polls. Why would Lightroom users even bother?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=177706\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Using your logic, why would Jeff even bother?
As I mentioned before, it all boils down to the almighty dollar. The only true measure would be in the number of units sold of each software package.
Jerry
-
Can only speak to my experience. I've been to Jeff's site many many times. NEVER been to the Apple site.
But I fullheartedly agree with you about the open poll not being a reliable or valid measure. The population wasn't randomly selected so it was unreliable and unvalid from the start, regardless of whether it was trumpted on the Apple site.
-
With all the hubbub regarding Aperture, I downloaded the 2.0 trial.
I'm getting excellent edits, much better than the 1.0 trial I tried. Maybe this thing finally is ready for prime time.
They must be using the Nikon SDK, as the files are as good as I get with Nikon's own Capture NX editor. Now for me thats an accomplishment. Workflow in NX is so bad I only use it only on a must do basis.
bob
-
They must be using the Nikon SDK, as the files are as good as I get with Nikon's own Capture NX editor. Now for me thats an accomplishment.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=177724\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Just goes to show people will believe anything of Apple! They don't use the SDK as it's only good for decoding WB.
-
Just goes to show people will believe anything of Apple! They don't use the SDK as it's only good for decoding WB.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=177733\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well I'll concede the point, and I'm not an Apple fanboy. I own a digital graphics production shop specializing in developing 3D topography output to video. We're far more PC centric.
What I do believe are my eye's.
Anyway, wrong reason, but the output is nice.
Bob
-
I actually agree that Aperture's raw conversions look closer to Capture NX's, though that doesn't mean I prefer them. To my eyes they are a little "soupy", while Adobe retains a little more detail at the cost of a small loss in saturation. But that's a very unscientific, impressionistic "soupy" based on trying some more difficult images with reds and skin tones.
But going back to Philmar's challenge, I'd argue that among these programs, whatever comes out of fine art pixel peeping of individual images is less of a distinguishing factor than how long it takes to get a number of pictures "finished" or ready, which also affects the time you can spend on the real winners. In that regard, I'm amazed Aperture 2.0 didn't do something with the Lift and Stamp two step - Lightroom's Auto Sync mode is so much more efficient.
John
-
Statistics :
Mr Jones never eats chicken (he hates them).
Mrs Jones eats chicken everyday (she loves them).
Result : Mr. & Mrs Jones eat 1/2 chicken everyday.
-
Don't you know that 97.1 % of all statistics are fake?
-- Olaf
-
On several fora, there is criticism of ACR's handling of high ISO files from Sony A700. If Aperture could do a better job, I'd go for it.