Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Digital Cameras & Shooting Techniques => Topic started by: dwdallam on February 01, 2008, 03:14:06 am
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Let's keep this thread strictly to the point.
1. This thread has nothing to do with any other camera except the replacement for the 5D.
2. Please only post factual, cited, information on this subject from February 01, 2008 and later dates.
3. This thread is not for any degree of speculation.
We're all waiting to see what Canon is going to do so we can either buy a 1DS MKIII or the replacement for the 5D. That's all we need to know at this point.
Thanks.
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I would not expect many posts here until the announcement.
Oops, sorry; that is merely speculation on my part.
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I would not expect many posts here until the announcement.
Oops, sorry; that is merely speculation on my part.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=171438\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That's what I'm hoping for. I think we have until tomorrow, and then the show is over and no announcements till September I guess.
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This is silly.
It's been clear for quite a while that there will be no 5D replacement in the near future.
While all the signs were there (aging model, discounted prices, increased competition) for reasons known only to Canon they decided to postpone its introduction. If there was going to be a 5D MKII at PMA we would have heard about it a week ago.
At the risk of speculating, my guess would be a delay of about four months, so maybe April announce with May delivery. And I think we can expect something more than just a 5D with a bigger screen and Live View. That type of upgrading won't cut it for Canon in the new more competitive environment that it now finds itself in.
Michael
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WOOT! New 5D in 4 months!!
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Hehe. BUT WE ALL WANT IT DAMMIT!
This is silly.
It's been clear for quite a while that there will be no 5D replacement in the near future.
While all the signs were there (aging model, discounted prices, increased competition) for reasons known only to Canon they decided to postpone its introduction. If there was going to be a 5D MKII at PMA we would have heard about it a week ago.
At the risk of speculating, my guess would be a delay of about four months, so maybe April announce with May delivery. And I think we can expect something more than just a 5D with a bigger screen and Live View. That type of upgrading won't cut it for Canon in the new more competitive environment that it now finds itself in.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=171487\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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This is silly.
It's been clear for quite a while that there will be no 5D replacement in the near future.
While all the signs were there (aging model, discounted prices, increased competition) for reasons known only to Canon they decided to postpone its introduction. If there was going to be a 5D MKII at PMA we would have heard about it a week ago.
At the risk of speculating, my guess would be a delay of about four months, so maybe April announce with May delivery. And I think we can expect something more than just a 5D with a bigger screen and Live View. That type of upgrading won't cut it for Canon in the new more competitive environment that it now finds itself in.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=171487\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I can't imagine Canon would update much later than Michaels guess. I mean, how much longer could a corp let a camera model age?
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I just saw an interview here (http://www.kamerabild.se/ArticlePages/200802/02/20080202132752_ADF463/20080202132752_ADF463.dbp.asp) with chuck westfall at the PMA show and he stated very clearly that the 5d has no direct competition so has no reason to be updated. Canon is in coast mode when it comes to new models at this point and seems unwilling to spend the R&D till absolutely necessary for new equipment. Plus he mentioned that because there is no replacement they´re able to drop the price significantly to 2200usd.
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I mean, how much longer could a corp let a camera model age?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=171956\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Leica M ?
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Let's keep this thread strictly to the point.
1. This thread has nothing to do with any other camera except the replacement for the 5D.
2. Please only post factual, cited, information on this subject from February 01, 2008 and later dates.
3. This thread is not for any degree of speculation.
We're all waiting to see what Canon is going to do so we can either buy a 1DS MKIII or the replacement for the 5D. That's all we need to know at this point.
Thanks.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=171435\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Here are all the FACTS regarding the 5D replacement.
1.
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I just saw an interview here (http://www.kamerabild.se/ArticlePages/200802/02/20080202132752_ADF463/20080202132752_ADF463.dbp.asp) with chuck westfall at the PMA show and he stated very clearly that the 5d has no direct competition so has no reason to be updated. Canon is in coast mode when it comes to new models at this point and seems unwilling to spend the R&D till absolutely necessary for new equipment. Plus he mentioned that because there is no replacement they´re able to drop the price significantly to 2200usd.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=172006\")
Yep, except it has fallen below that on Amazon:
[a href=\"http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0007Y791C/ref=pe_606_8276380_pe_ar_t3]http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0007Y791C/ref=pe...276380_pe_ar_t3[/url]
2099US.
What a deal for a camera of that level. And what a marketing advantage canon has not upgrading it.
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Here are all the FACTS regarding the 5D replacement.
1.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172070\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, quite accurate.
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Here are all the FACTS regarding the 5D replacement.
1.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172070\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Not so.
There are several facts concerning this replacement:
1. There isn't one yet;
2. None of us knows for sure if/when there will be a replacement;
3. None of us knows for sure what specs will/will not be on said replacement, if in fact a replacement will ever come into being; and finally
4. Many of us are excited and hopeful to see what the replacement will be like, and how much it will cost (if in fact a replacement is in our future), and so we are all jumping up and down chattering about it on these posts ... like impatient children awaiting any news about Santa Claus' arriving
Jack
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Not the same thing, and you know it :-)
The M is a classic, plus Leica doesn't do bussines the same as Canon or Nikon.
Leica M ?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172051\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I just saw an interview here (http://www.kamerabild.se/ArticlePages/200802/02/20080202132752_ADF463/20080202132752_ADF463.dbp.asp) with chuck westfall at the PMA show and he stated very clearly that the 5d has no direct competition so has no reason to be updated. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172006\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This just sounds like Canon PR spin. Anyone with an ounce of sense knows that the 5D has competition, or is this just Canon playing with words again -- what do they mean here by "direct"?
Plus he mentioned that because there is no replacement they´re able to drop the price significantly to 2200usd.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172006\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Am I the only person that fails to see the logic in this statement? What does not having a replacement have to do with being able to drop the price significantly? Did the camera's cost just suddenly drop by $700-$1000 because there is no replacement?
Further, if the camera has no competition, why did they feel the need to drop the price so significantly? Are they just being magnanimous? Why do they feel the need to share the suggested or presumed sudden cost drop with their customers? If there was no competition they would just pocket the savings? Or, if the fact that they don't have a 5D really had no affect on the cost of producing a 5D, why do they feel they have to forgo $1000 of profit on each camera? It couldn't be competition, could it?
It's all just Canon PR marketing spin. Chuck, I am sorry to say, is just full of it.
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This just sounds like Canon PR spin. Anyone with an ounce of sense knows that the 5D has competition, or is this just Canon playing with words again -- what do they mean here by "direct"?
Am I the only person that fails to see the logic in this statement? What does not having a replacement have to do with being able to drop the price significantly? Did the camera's cost just suddenly drop by $700-$1000 because there is no replacement?
Further, if the camera has no competition, why did they feel the need to drop the price so significantly? Are they just being magnanimous? Why do they feel the need to share the suggested or presumed sudden cost drop with their customers? If there was no competition they would just pocket the savings? Or, if the fact that they don't have a 5D really had no affect on the cost of producing a 5D, why do they feel they have to forgo $1000 of profit on each camera? It couldn't be competition, could it?
It's all just Canon PR marketing spin. Chuck, I am sorry to say, is just full of it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172170\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If they can amortise the R&D costs over a longer production run the unit cost falls. Of course that doesn't necessairly speak weel about ongoing R&D for the replacement:)
Mike
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If they can amortise the R&D costs over a longer production run the unit cost falls. Of course that doesn't necessairly speak weel about ongoing R&D for the replacement:)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172189\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I am aware that capital cost can be further amortized. But would that make the camera drop by 25-30% virtually over night? Quite unlikely. Further, we don't even know what the amortization schedule/plan for the camera is/was, or to what extent the capital costs have already been amortized.
Finally, past R+D costs are sunk costs and do not affect current marketing/price decisions. Cash flow would not be changed at all by the amount of R&D costs they decide to amortize per unit. The point is, they cut the price not because they were able to because there is no replacement, but rather because they had to for competitive reasons. They decided to accept less revenue, and significantly lower margins, per camera, in order to not lose sales to competitive offerings from other manufacturers. Their statement is just pure BS spin.
Not having a replacement, just means they were not lowering the price in the previous months because they had to unload unsold stocks of cameras before the new camera arrived. (unless, of course they had so much unsold production that they had to dramatically cut prices a year or more before the new model arrives -- which is quite unlikely).
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I am aware that capital cost can be further amortized. But would that make the camera drop by 25-30% virtually over night? Quite unlikely. Further, we don't even know what the amortization schedule/plan for the camera is/was, or to what extent the capital costs have already been amortized.
Finally, past R+D costs are sunk costs and do not affect current marketing/price decisions. Cash flow would not be changed at all by the amount of R&D costs they decide to amortize per unit. The point is, they cut the price not because they were able to because there is no replacement, but rather because they had to for competitive reasons. They decided to accept less revenue, and significantly lower margins, per camera, in order to not lose sales to competitive offerings from other manufacturers. Their statement is just pure BS spin.
Not having a replacement, just means they were not lowering the price in the previous months because they had to unload unsold stocks of cameras before the new camera arrived. (unless, of course they had so much unsold production that they had to dramatically cut prices a year or more before the new model arrives -- which is quite unlikely).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172196\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You asked for a reason, not the reason:) I agree that the price has droped because the market wouldn't stand the previous price...
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Further, if the camera has no competition, why did they feel the need to drop the price so significantly? [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172170\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I haven't seen or read the Chuck interview, but I imagine he meant that the 5D had no competition at that price point. If Nikon were to reduce the price of the D3 closer to the level of the 5D, then of course the 5D would have very stiff competition.
The 5D has been a very popular camera. I imagine the R&D and initial set-up costs have been well and truly amortised by now. It would be interesting to know what the actual productions costs are. Maybe less than $500 per unit .
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I haven't seen or read the Chuck interview, but I imagine he meant that the 5D had no competition at that price point.…
I've seen the interview and that's exactly Chuck's words.
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I haven't seen or read the Chuck interview, but I imagine he meant that the 5D had no competition at that price point. If Nikon were to reduce the price of the D3 closer to the level of the 5D, then of course the 5D would have very stiff competition.
The 5D has been a very popular camera. I imagine the R&D and initial set-up costs have been well and truly amortised by now. It would be interesting to know what the actual productions costs are. Maybe less than $500 per unit .
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172201\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This is why Canon is keeping the 5D for now. It has no competition at that price point. New buyers not into canon nor Nikon are probably flocking to the 5D over the D3. I know two of my friends shooting with a 20D just put in their orders for the 5D, and they were thinking about Nikon. This price is probably cutting into Nikon profits horribly. About the time Nikon wakes up to Canon's 5D dumping, Canon will offer the new 5D, with over 16MPs for 3K US, making it hard for Nikon again.
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This is why Canon is keeping the 5D for now. It has no competition at that price point. New buyers not into canon nor Nikon are probably flocking to the 5D over the D3. I know two of my friends shooting with a 20D just put in their orders for the 5D, and they were thinking about Nikon. This price is probably cutting into Nikon profits horribly. About the time Nikon wakes up to Canon's 5D dumping, Canon will offer the new 5D, with over 16MPs for 3K US, making it hard for Nikon again.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172365\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Likewise I know of two people who just bought 5D's because at the current pricing it has no competition whatsoever.
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I'm planning on buying a 2nd -- because I like to have two bodies when I travel or go to unique locations. I was waiting for the 5D II, but at this price, I'll buy a second 5D, and wait until the 5D II has been out and tested for a few months (and hopefully drops a few hundred dollars in price) before I sell one of my 5Ds and get the II.
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I just saw an interview here (http://www.kamerabild.se/ArticlePages/200802/02/20080202132752_ADF463/20080202132752_ADF463.dbp.asp) with chuck westfall at the PMA show and he stated very clearly that the 5d has no direct competition so has no reason to be updated. Canon is in coast mode when it comes to new models at this point and seems unwilling to spend the R&D till absolutely necessary for new equipment. Plus he mentioned that because there is no replacement they´re able to drop the price significantly to 2200usd.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172006\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I was actually told this same thing by my group when meeting in the back room ... at this point there is no direct competitor to the 5D, and so R&D has to go where they think that exposure is greatest.
So true or not, internally this appears to be their position. They may actually feel the new 1DsMark3 needs more attention, with fear that both Nikon and Sony are about to knock them off the top end pedestal later this year, or at least climb up there with them.
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The problem with this approach is that they have always been the market leader. And one of the reasons for their success is that they are first to market.
If they don't release before (or at least at the same time) as the Sony equivalent that is expected, then they'll have to play catch up and lose market share.
Also...if they have fully paid for R&D and now the only costs are Production, Maintenance, Distribution, and those come to say, 1000, or 1200 dollars. there is no reason why they couldn't sell the 5D at 1750, or 1800. And start selling a 6D, at the 3000 dollar price point.
All this said. My guess. They're clearing Stock. They built a Ton of these, and have stopped producing more (or started slowing production immensely) and are now trying to get stock down to the 10-15% range (1-2 months of stock) to make way for the 5D II.
I think that by the end of the year, we'll see a 5D mkII, probably announced at Photokina (hopefully sooner, but more likely then). Regardless...for me at least...i'll have to wait till the end of the year now, I spent the money I'd saved up for the 5D to refinance my mortgage.
I haven't *quite* reached "shit or get off the pot." but if Canon doesn't release a 5D replacement at Photokina...they'll have lost a customer for life...
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Regardless...for me at least...i'll have to wait till the end of the year now, I spent the money I'd saved up for the 5D to refinance my mortgage.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172569\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You're not thinking clearly here DA. Of course you have the money. It comes from what you will save from refinancing. See! You just have get a low interest bank loan and pay that loan with what you saved on refinancing each month. We gotta stick together man. Cameras before homes, or food.
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You're not thinking clearly here DA. Of course you have the money. It comes from what you will save from refinancing. See! You just have get a low interest bank loan and pay that loan with what you saved on refinancing each month. We gotta stick together man. Cameras before homes, or food.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172601\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Michael hinted at another possibility in his review of the Epson 11880. There he says that The box that the 11880 is delivered in could house a family of four.
So if you just sell your house, use the proceeds to buy an 11880 (for about $15,000), and then sell the printer (without the box) for, let's say, $12,000, then you've taken care of the mortgage and you've got enough left over to get some serious camera gear.
And if you're not too greedy, you may even have enough left over for a little bit of food, too.
See? Photoeconomics beats Voodooeconomics any day.