Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Graham Mitchell on December 04, 2007, 07:39:35 pm
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Some people have asked me for a sample RAW file of a person, so here's a DNG file you can look at. Note, because it is RAW you will need to adjust white balance correctly yourself. I'm not including the test shot with the grey card. This image is only to be used for evaluation purposes and may not be reproduced.
http://download.yousendit.com/D4D92FCF5B1A03CC (http://download.yousendit.com/D4D92FCF5B1A03CC) (limited to 1 week and 100 downloads)
Rollei 6008AF, ISO 25, 180mm f2.8 @ f4, 1/500, manual focus
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Fantastic quality!
Thank you for sharing.
Evgeny.
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Some people have asked me for a sample RAW file of a person, so here's a DNG file you can look at.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158272\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks Graham - she's a pretty girl and the file looks very clean. Sharp where it needs to be and smooth OOF areas. I'll have to consider getting one of those 180mm.
I was surprised by the differences between the Phase P20 and your eMotion. Probably all the difference can be attributed to the Lightroom RAW conversion but the colors or tonality just seem different than from the P20. Not cleaner or noisier, just different. Hard to put it into words.
There were a couple areas of the file that I thought were interesting - the green band around the highlight region of the panther necklace. Also in the whites of these beautiful eyes - the little veins were blue purple instead of red near the pupils? Wierd - never seen them that color before but maybe I haven't been looking. She looks great when I stand back from the screen - looks like I was really there and I agree I don't think the new canon will match this performance.
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There were a couple areas of the file that I thought were interesting - the green band around the highlight region of the panther necklace.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158301\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, there is some CA on the out-of-focus high contrast edges at this aperture. I personally don't find it disturbing because it's only in these OOF areas and it is easily correctable with the hue brush if necessary.
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Finally, a well-exposed MF shot, only 1/3 stop from the right edge.
I wonder if someone can show an advantage of the 16-bit depth backs against the 14-bit E22.
Btw, I miss the aperture, shutter speed and focal length from the file. Have they been dropped by the DNG conversion?
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Btw, I miss the aperture, shutter speed and focal length from the file. Have they been dropped by the DNG conversion?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158307\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No, I use a Rollei 6008AF camera which has no digital interface so there is no EXIF data to begin with (the back is connected via a sync cable). If I can ever afford it I would love to get the Hy6 and have a much more integrated camera.
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Thanks Graham - she's a pretty girl and the file looks very clean. Sharp where it needs to be and smooth OOF areas. I'll have to consider getting one of those 180mm.
I was surprised by the differences between the Phase P20 and your eMotion.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158301\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hey Graham,
I know everyone knows what back you are using. Do you mind telling me again. I don't automatically put a name with a back unless the back is the name.
Thanks
David
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I don't automatically put a name with a back unless the back is the name.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158313\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
?
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?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158315\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Oops. One of these days I will learn to read . I'm also thinking about the Hy6/AFi. The AFi5 in particular. Thanks for the post.
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There were a couple areas of the file that I thought were interesting - the green band around the highlight region of the panther necklace.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158301\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The RAW data is clipped at 16383 in the specular highlights of the panther.
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It doesn't even come close to Graham's shot, but at least it's in focus, and has pretty good sharpness for a Canon.
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It doesn't even come close to Graham's shot
I wonder on what criteria this opinion is based on. Although it should have been exposed at least one stop higher, this affects only the black sweater and some of the hair. I don't see, where it stands behind the other shot.
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It is shot with 1Ds MkII, 100/2.8 macro, 5.6, 1/30th, daylight + bron para 220FB as assisting light.
I'm interested in your findings.
Best,
Johannes
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158435\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Nice shot Johannes and thanks for sharing. It was great to be able to import it into lightroom with your settings, metadata etc. I used to shoot with the 100 macro and its a great lens actually. There is a lot of detail in image, but somehow it looks less real than Grahams eMotion image. That image has a critical sharpness that's missing with the 1Ds2 image I think. Even when looking zoomed out, I find it hard to develop the feeling that she is there in front of me like in Grahams shot. Wonder why? Is it the color or tonality?
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Was looking for P20 files to put up, but I haven't had it that long. So here's two Leica DMR files for you both were taken with the 80mm lux, one at f/8 of a local model and one of my friends wife who happened to visit my studio while I was getting ready for a shoot. I shot that one wide open at f/1.4
Take a look....
Http://www.eh21.com/LeicaDMR/ (http://www.eh21.com/LeicaDMR/)
Of course the files are for your evaluation only - not for reuse.
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I don't see, where it stands behind the other shot.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158533\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Other than being soft and lacking the detail of Graham's pic any Canonite should be happy with the shot.
David
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IMPORTANT
After some feedback on this DNG file and especially some colour and highlight issues, I have to say that I have never used the DNG conversion before and it is not part of my ordinary workflow. There the DNG file is only useful as a measure of the file's resolution and detail.
I chose the DNG format to try to be helpful but it only opened a can of worms.
So.. here is an 8 bit TIFF (16 bit was too large) of the same file exported as a TIFF from Captureshop with basic curves applied in Photoshop.
No colour correction applied, and the shirt is black as you can see. Some of the colour fringing is much better too.
http://download.yousendit.com/A316153B5CD90E9A (http://download.yousendit.com/A316153B5CD90E9A) (limited to 1 week, 100 downloads)
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Other than being soft and lacking the detail of Graham's pic any Canonite should be happy with the shot.
Well, I am looking at the shot in DPP, and I see details and sharpness not less than in the other shot.
I uploaded the DPP converted TIFF, w/o any adjustments, except a small sharpening:
20070217-103test in 8-bit TIFF (http://www.panopeeper.com/Demo/20070217-103test.TIF)
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Johannes,
if you mind that I "developed" your shot with DPP and uploaded it for demo, I take it off immediately. (If you don't mind it, then I'll take it off tomorrow.)
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To compare files even slightly meaningfully, the faces need to fill the same proportion of the frame. Both the Canon and the Leica images have larger faces (esp the Leica).
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To compare files even slightly meaningfully, the faces need to fill the same proportion of the frame. Both the Canon and the Leica images have larger faces (esp the Leica).
The Canon image, what I uploaded is, of course, unadultered.
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To compare files even slightly meaningfully, the faces need to fill the same proportion of the frame. Both the Canon and the Leica images have larger faces (esp the Leica).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158552\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
HaHa you're right and I was waiting for that. The moment I hit the reply button I realized that most of the viewers were going to assess the image based primarily on sharpness and will want to see equal sized framing. But I was rushing out to pick up my son from daycare so....
But my criterion for judging images are different. Of most importance to me is: "Is it live or is it Memorex?" I look to see if I can believe I'm there, then I look for things like color, tonality, texture. To me, the Leica file is more real than either the eMotion or the canon 1DsII. I will post a p20 file when I did one from the library. I believe it will come out tops over the files posted so far.
RE: the leica files....I probably should have taken the time to explain all this. I thought people would also be interested to see the performance of the 80 lux wide open and at f/8 and was going to ask what medium format lens is comparable....the 110 f/2.0 ?
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I look to see if I can believe I'm there, then I look for things like color, tonality, texture. To me, the Leica file is more real than either the eMotion or the canon 1DsII.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158558\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ok, the Leica. To me, the eyes on L110139 are really nice, but color, tonality, texture, must be in the eyes of the beholder because that skin looks plastic. The girl in L1100343 is pretty, but the picture is a wash. God, I could sure use a good clean shot with an A22 converted from RAW to TIFF in LC11 and posted here.
David
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...I could sure use a good clean shot with an A22 converted from RAW to TIFF in LC11 and posted here.
David
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158575\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'd like to see that too.
Graham sorry we are hijacking your thread.... I surely wish one day we could do something side by side, say with the same model and lighting. We could compare my P20 to your back directly then eliminating the factors of camera/lens/lighting at least. Oh well as much as I would like to come to Estonia, I don't think it will be in my cards for some time.
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my contribution: I invite you all to Bangkok, at my place, with your backs. Available here are also friends with P45, H3D with 39 MPx, Leica M8, eMotion 75, etc ....
Anytime if it can be organized in advance.
Best regards,
Thierry
I'd like to see that too.
Graham sorry we are hijacking your thread.... I surely wish one day we could do something side by side, say with the same model and lighting. We could compare my P20 to your back directly then.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158585\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Take a look....
Http://www.eh21.com/LeicaDMR/ (http://www.eh21.com/LeicaDMR/)
These shots demonstrate the perfect exposure (as opposed to several shots shown on another thread, which were underexposed by two to four stops). Does the Leica show true raw histograms?
histograms (http://www.panopeeper.com/Demo/L1100139-L1100343_hist.gif)
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We could compare my P20 to your back directly then.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158585\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
comparison to a square camera is hard
if your final output requirement is recatangle then the square must be cropped to 11mp
and if your final output is square then a 22mp must be cropped to 16mp
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I would comment that using ACR for conversion of sinar files IMO looks horrible compared to the native software or silkypix - comparing look/colour across this lot is a joke - even comparing colour side by side would be near impossible with the different optimum softwares for each system
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comparison to a square camera is hard
if your final output requirement is recatangle then the square must be cropped to 11mp
and if your final output is square then a 22mp must be cropped to 16mp
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I would comment that using ACR for conversion of sinar files IMO looks horrible compared to the native software or silkypix - comparing look/colour across this lot is a joke - even comparing colour side by side would be near impossible with the different optimum softwares for each system
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158590\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes agreed the dark horse in all of this is that each back has its own proprietary software which will hopefully produce a better file than ACR/Lightroom. Geeze, even Canon's DPP does a better job on canon files than other converters.
But as far as square vs 4::5 I think the small side of the 22mp backs is the same pixel count as the p20? That way we could do the framing such that the subject is only the square part of the the larger back and get a more or less pixel for pixel comparison. We'd then are giving the larger back one point already by acknowledging the higher pixel count. I wouldn't assume that the square image has to be cropped, because I'm not cropping mine at all. I like the square format.
Another way to do the comparison would be a no holds barred kind of deal where each person gets to choose their own lighting style, favorite lens, and runs the file through their converter of choice their way. What I'm really saying is there is a learning curve to get the best out of each platform, and probably not a reasonable comparison to just upload some RAW files for people to put into whatever program they like with no prior experience in say what curves make the files pop.
So what are good metrics to evaluate image quality anyway? Sharpness, absence of noise, smooth color transitions, absence of moire, color range, dynamic range, flexibleness of file, visual depth/realness.....
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on the aspect ratio thing its all about the final delivery
the P20 and P25 are IDENTICAL as square and hugeley different at different rectangular aspect ratios
To do a test one has to first define what is the desired final outcome
so a desired final outcome could be
which back is best for an A2 print
or
which back is best for a four foot square print
And the results will differ wildly
S
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Is alpa with mf back or Seitz D3 digital back better for architecture and landscape?
Best,
Johannes
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158611\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
yes,
a lot.
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I ask myself not so much whether alpa is better than canon for that. I'm through with that. I know what I can expect from Canon with TS-Es (24, 45, 90), Olympus 35 shift, stiching and what not - and how much post I need for every image.
The question for me is what the new Seitz D3 scanning back can do on the alpaXY compared to a MF back on the same camera. I visited a workshop with the D3-Roundshot combination and was impressed. The Seitz people were mentioning that they plan to adapt the D3 scanning back to the alpa to have a real 6x9 digital camera with a scantime around 1 sec. (7500x11250~84MPixel, well that is not the point but you have no bayer pattern and non need to demosaic). The Seitz 6x17 is nice to show off but 6x9 sounds promising.
Best,
Johannes
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158624\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i would be interested also a lot in the new seitz back. you have any idea how long will be the times under subaveradge light conditions or in interior? i suppose the 1 second is for exterior in good light conditions.
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These shots demonstrate the perfect exposure (as opposed to several shots shown on another thread, which were underexposed by two to four stops). Does the Leica show true raw histograms?
histograms (http://www.panopeeper.com/Demo/L1100139-L1100343_hist.gif)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158588\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I was just thinking the same but the second one (the one on f8 is a bit far to the right, the one wide open is excellent). A bit soft wide open (which is to be expected).
The Canon file is slightly backfocussed (focus is right behind the eyes) where it would have appeared to be much sharper when focus was exactly on the eyes.
Graham, the processed filed is much better than the DNG but still the green and magenta stuff is there though in much lesser form. There is however a lot of yellow in her face now (or maybe I have been looking too long through my finder and at my screen by now)?
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the second one (the one on f8 is a bit far to the right
There are about 1050 pixels clipped (0.03% of all, negligable), but those are from specular spots, particularly from the inside corner of the silver painted eyelids.
(The makup of the model is miserable anyway for such an anatomy-lesson shot.)
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Hi Rainer,
There is no easy answer to this question: Seitz has developed something they call TDI (Time Delay Integration). If I understood it right they integrate over more than one pixel row if light becomes less. This gives very variable exposure values. Seitz say the sensitivity is 100 times higher compared to other scanning backs. What I saw/could do myself at the workshop was that a full resolution Panorama with 7500x28000 pixels was captured in ~2 sec, see below. They say sensitivity compares to ISO 100-400 with no noise. I'm waiting to have a thing like this in my hands for testshots.
Best,
Johannes
P.S.: The image is from the workshop location.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=158732\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
would be highly appreciated if you inform us about this tool, esp. together with a 6x9 camera.
the 360degrees roundshot cameras also deliver great possibilities, although i have a 220roundshot from seitz and used it very rarely after having it some time. but this might be a personal thing of me. esp. for group shots i think this 360degree cameras bring exciting possibilities, unfortunately i dont photograph people because they are too communicative for m lonely heart ..... ,:-
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I posted this in Graham's FredMiranda thread also, but I'll post it here as well:
This is just an example of what I got from converting the Sinar file in Lightroom:
http://www.yousendit.com/download/www/UXloanZsT010Ni9IRGc9PQ (http://www.yousendit.com/download/www/UXloanZsT010Ni9IRGc9PQ) (8 bit TIFF, 61MB, I guess 6 days left, 100 downloads max)
I'm not saying it's good, or bad, and the color is probably way off, but it's just what I achieved using LR.
Maybe we can all post our results from different converters to show just how hard it is to compare digital files, even from the same camera, with all the processing options out there.
Those Leica files previously posted are very nice, I might add.