Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Morgan_Moore on November 25, 2007, 06:41:08 am
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It seems to me that DBs are kind of static in thier design concepts
bringing a few more MP and nudging the ISO but not really moving forward
What are people's crazy ideas ?
Mine.
-16mp 3200ISO back
-Back with internal stabilisation (VR) of the chip
-decent live view to a 5" screen with focus confirm etc
-real time wireless tethered shooting
-AF back (where the chip microsteps to bring focus)
These seem to be one or two generations away - not impossible.
S
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Nice thread,
My wishlist:
-real wireless shooting
-Iso 3200
-internal 30Gb+ HD (some backs have internal memory, i know)
-Raw + jpg mode
-Double (multi) exposure with different white balances
-battery able to shot for 3+ days
very conservative wish-list, I know...
Tom
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1) No-more Bayer sensors but Foveon like to get rid of color interpolation however with 22MP or more.
2) Better ISO performance.
3) True modular systems with open standards to which every component manufacture complies.
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My list is short:
Under $1000
6x6 sensor
Onboard solid state storage of 20gb or more
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... and a free assistant (preferably a girl/woman) with this package!
... may be/tentatively next Christmas, but probably not for this year.
Thierry
My list is short:
Under $1000
6x6 sensor
Onboard solid state storage of 20gb or more
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155729\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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... and a free assistant (preferably a girl/woman) with this package!
... may be/tentatively next Christmas, but probably not for this year.
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155732\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It would definately sell, but running costs could be high.
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Very intresting list indeed...
How ever, we have the 35mm DSLR system that covers the high ISO, image stabilation, 5fps and is 22MP. We have the MF systems with the 39MP, ultra sharp, speedy sync and 16bit AD image convertion. Do we want a system that has all this in one camera?
Would be grate to have all this in one camera!
Why not keep them as they are?
Why not let the 35mm systems keep developing theyre compact systems at low price with decent qualety, high ISO, bright zoom lenses and speedy focus and capture?
Why not let the MF systems keep developing backs with bigger sensors, higher image qualety, more MP and sharper optics at the cost of low ISO, no image stabilation and few zoom optics?
I for one think with the next generation of MF digital backs we will have probles with optics. Right now I loose alot of resolutin shooting on f22 on my H2 p30+ cambo, I consider f22 unusable. I can live with f16, but how will f16 be useble with a new potential future 80MP back?
I would rather MF camera and digital back makers would consintrade on making lenses that have better resolution, rather than developing IS, higher ISO and so forth...
We cant have it all in one camera. Why not sattle on having two systems in our bags where eatch system fits each occasion. That way each camera maker can develope theyre product for more spesific usage?
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- Full 645 sensor size
- good performance at ISO 3200
- 2 fps
Image stabilization is an interesting idea too.
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Very intresting list indeed...
How ever, we have the 35mm DSLR system that covers the high ISO, image stabilation, 5fps and is 22MP. We have the MF systems with the 39MP, ultra sharp, speedy sync and 16bit AD image convertion. Do we want a system that has all this in one camera?
Would be grate to have all this in one camera!
Why not keep them as they are?
Why not let the 35mm systems keep developing theyre compact systems at low price with decent qualety, high ISO, bright zoom lenses and speedy focus and capture?
Why not let the MF systems keep developing backs with bigger sensors, higher image qualety, more MP and sharper optics at the cost of low ISO, no image stabilation and few zoom optics?
I for one think with the next generation of MF digital backs we will have probles with optics. Right now I loose alot of resolutin shooting on f22 on my H2 p30+ cambo, I consider f22 unusable. I can live with f16, but how will f16 be useble with a new potential future 80MP back?
I would rather MF camera and digital back makers would consintrade on making lenses that have better resolution, rather than developing IS, higher ISO and so forth...
We cant have it all in one camera. Why not sattle on having two systems in our bags where eatch system fits each occasion. That way each camera maker can develope theyre product for more spesific usage?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155743\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Fair point about two systems but
MF bigger chips make cool images and are twice the res and crap flash synch speed/ viewing experiencxe on DSLRs
I may not want actually to buy two systems and associated lenses
I certainly dont want to carry two systems especially on planes
H1 is my primary platform but low ISO stresses me out - so I always have a DSLR on hand too
a 16mp 1000 back would sort this
And surely the MF makers should just roll over to thier competition
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Of course we all want 6400 ASA 80mp at a cost of $1000
I am more interested in proper funky ideas like, I dont know, mult shot that create huge DOF with programmed focus braketing or I dont now
Particluarly how cameras can use digital technology and information analysis
Current backs are just expensive 'instant film'
S
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... and a free assistant (preferably a girl/woman) !
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155732\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
A most useful contribution from an employee of a camera maunufactuer
S
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In camera focus blending (or at the moment of RAW conversion would also be acceptable). The Hy6 already has focus bracketing which is half the solution.
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I tend to believe that while it may be helpful to have larger sensors, as well as some of the other advances previously discussed, that for the near term the gains likely will come from advances in how the image data are treated by imaging software.
I believe that software might be created that can for instance stack captures and integrate a combination of images where the focus began on the nearest part of the scene and the photographer moved the focus deeper and progressively deeper still into the scene. The role of the software then would be to analyze contrast of the several layers and select from that layer sections of the scene, where contrast-based criterion would be used to identify that part of the scene from all the images, which is in sharpest focus. I see this as being a way of going beyond what physical properties of light and exception lenses can provide.
In this way a series of exposures at f/4 might appear to have been made at f/16, with the added low noise benefit flowing from the utilization of an ISO that might be as modest as ISO 50 or 100. Naturally, static subjects would benefit most from such advances.
No doubt, photographers more visionary than I can see even more advanced applications for software solutions to photographic limitations. At least we might speculate about software work-arounds to photographic limitation, while we are waiting for the economics of wafer design and manufacture to provide advances along traditional paths to better cameras.
Jerry Reed
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Holy Cow:
Dustbac, I just saw your message when I went to see how many miss-spellings were in mine once it was posted, and there was your idea.
Oops,
Jerry Reed
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My only experience is with Phase backs, so my comments are relative to them.
First, provide a big, beautiful, hi-rez screen (like the one on Nikon's new D3) as well as support for untethered, zoomable, live view. Ideal for focus confirmation, and in the case of techincal cameras, perfect for composition and focussing.
Second, provide a user programmable function button, or two even. I'd use it (or them) to quickly put the back in custom white balance mode (hold an expo disk in front of the lens, press the function button and take the WB shot and your done), or to wake up the back (really only needed on technical cameras).
Third, for use with techincal cameras, a bluetooth sync input, along with a small bluetooth transmitter that plugs into a lenses sync output socket, and a keyfob-like device that can be pressed to wake up the back. Again, this is really only applicable to Phase backs (and I guess Mamiya backs) when used on technical cameras.
Fourth, the abililty to load different user tone curves would be nice.
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Holy Cow:
Dustbac, I just saw your message when I went to see how many miss-spellings were in mine once it was posted, and there was your idea.
Oops,
Jerry Reed
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155814\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No worries, it is only good when more people have the same ideas
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A most useful contribution from an employee of a camera maunufactuer
S
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155755\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Did you leave your sense of humor at home?
Greetings Andy
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Did you leave your sense of humor at home?
Greetings Andy
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155844\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yeah maybe I did
Its quite a serious thread IMO
I would actually like some manfacturer to chip in as why these things are not possible etc
For a manufact rep to push the thread to poor humor is a lost oppourtunity for them
They shoud actually be posting 'what do you guys want threads' not pulling a thread down a dead end channel
I though it showed a lack of respect to the thread and a lack of foresite in useful feedback to manufacuers
(but TH and I have a history of locking horns on this board - tis all good humor)
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The blue tooth fire button would be handy on Sinars on viewcams as well as phase
someone (EPD or Techtalk) sited communications as a reason that a rise/fall back coulndt be made for the Hy6 easisly
So it could have another use there
I dont know if bluetooth would be required, maybe a $10 infrared release, I have one for my nikon D80 $20
S
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First, provide a big, beautiful, hi-rez screen (like the one on Nikon's new D3)
Yes, I forgot this in my earlier post but I agree.
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My list, in order of priority, would focus on bringing the convenience of the backs closer to the actual DSLR standard:
- perfectly clean long exposures up to 3 mins,
- battery resisting cold weather,
- in back pixel level live view for accurate focussing when used on view cameras (see Nikon D3),
- fully elements proof including the connection with the body,
- full frame so as to get real wide angle shooting on MF bodies,
- no color cast even with tilt/shift,
- RAW based histogram,
- DSLR level response times when checking images' histogram,
- RAW buffer with at least 20 images continuous shooting capability,
- double CF slot for parallel or sequential write of data (see Nikon D3),
- uniivseral back interface with body so that it becomes possible to swtich freely from platform to platform.
Cheers,
Bernard
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no one wants more MP yet !
a bigger recording area maybe but MP....
S
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thanks Sam, appreciated, as always!
Does your tread title not read "Crazy Ideas"?!
As such, and when reading such BS (pardon me for this), I simply cannot remain serious.
And usually, when being not "serious" you will find a little "smiley" under my post!
Thierry
A most useful contribution from an employee of a camera maunufactuer
S
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155755\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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You must know Sam!
Everybody/everything must be perfect, in a perfect world.
Thierry
Did you leave your sense of humor at home?
Greetings Andy
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155844\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Let me put it straight, Sam.
I was responding to:
"Under $1000
6x6 sensor
Onboard solid state storage of 20gb or more"
What do you want me to answer to such?! I don't even know if it was serious or ....?
The serious suggestions I have found are well noted, don't worry about that: I know well what to do with this information and don't need any advices on what we should be doing.
Best regards,
Thierry
Yeah maybe I did
Its quite a serious thread IMO
I would actually like some manfacturer to chip in as why these things are not possible etc
For a manufact rep to push the thread to poor humor is a lost oppourtunity for them
They shoud actually be posting 'what do you guys want threads' not pulling a thread down a dead end channel
I though it showed a lack of respect to the thread and a lack of foresite in useful feedback to manufacuers
(but TH and I have a history of locking horns on this board - tis all good humor)
S
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155864\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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The under $1000 was just me being wishful, but the other two suggestions would be nice.
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What I'd like in the order of preference
- More dynamic range 12 stops is almost enough but I wish for more
- multi selectable focus points say 45 of them like the top end DSLRs
- anti shake
- built in wireless strobe trigger (like pocket wizard) that will work with my strobes
- built in wireless flash triggering WITH ETTL to work with portable flash like the N and C
- ISO 3200, ISO 5
- bigger sensor size
- built in wireless tethering
what I'll likely get.....built in wireless strobe trigger
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What I'd like in the order of preference
- More dynamic range 12 stops is almost enough but I wish for more
- multi selectable focus points say 45 of them like the top end DSLRs
- anti shake
- built in wireless strobe trigger (like pocket wizard) that will work with my strobes
- built in wireless flash triggering WITH ETTL to work with portable flash like the N and C
- ISO 3200, ISO 5
- bigger sensor size
- built in wireless tethering
what I'll likely get.....built in wireless strobe trigger
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156321\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
the low iso request is handy. i often would like low iso, so i can shoot a wide apeture in sunlight, or have motion blur in the sun light (i was shooting a car with a motin rig the other day in bright light- needing a 4 second exposure).
i aways use nds on the lens, but the lens gets too hard to see through.
low iso would be nice, but wouldnt it be easier to get a clip, make the back fit a nd gel behind the mirror, in front of the sensor? so you can see through a bright finder, but but lower the light to the back?
paul
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0) Touch screen a la leaf, but with brightness at the level of the iPhone.
1) Real time preview, instantly usable without the need for filters etc.
2) ISO capabilities comparable to Canon EOS 1Ds II
3) High speed wireless networkable
4) In built flash memory (I know some have it already) sufficient for a days shooting with the abilitiy to shoot simultaneously to CF card and the in built flash.
5) 60Mp sensor with selectable 30Mp and 22Mp modes for different kinds of end usage.
6) (The crazy one) Full frame 6x6 or 6x7 sensor for a more 'MF' look.
7) Cost at comparable price to current 1Ds II/III
8) On board image processing allowing lens characteristics to be handled on board, eg for use on MF cameras to cure barrel/pincushion distortion
9) Open firmware with 3rd party plug in API for image processing.
10) Vendor provided software all at the minimum level of that provided by Canon or Phase-One
11) Committment to open architectures and software at all levels to provide investment protection.
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Free1000 points made me think about some another things.
1) Touchscreen AF with a live video image.
2) The ability to route that image to a workstation (maybe even wireless).
3) Raw cropping (mentioned before but not in this thread I believe).
4) HOT folders or PS droplet or action activation from the back or tethering software.
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1) Touchscreen AF with a live video image.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156334\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Great idea.
It seems to me that real steps will be from a future version of live view
This will require different camera bodies if mirror/poentaprism view isnt going to be a thing of the past
Either pelicle mirror or suchlike
It seems that without a magnitudional leap in the qulity of screens a pentaprism view will be hard to match for some time
S
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Sam,
now this tread is going to the right direction, with interesting inputs.
I am looking forward for more of it.
And don't take all always so seriously, it was not intended to denigrate you or this tread.
Best regards,
Thierry
Great idea.
It seems to me that real steps will be from a future version of live view
This will require different camera bodies if mirror/poentaprism view isnt going to be a thing of the past
Either pelicle mirror or suchlike
It seems that without a magnitudional leap in the qulity of screens a pentaprism view will be hard to match for some time
S
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156350\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Rats! I forgot Live View with zoom and a big bright screen that can be swiveled around in all directions!
What I'd like in the order of preference
- More dynamic range 12 stops is almost enough but I wish for more
- multi selectable focus points say 45 of them like the top end DSLRs
- anti shake
- built in wireless strobe trigger (like pocket wizard) that will work with my strobes
- built in wireless flash triggering WITH ETTL to work with portable flash like the N and C
- ISO 3200, ISO 5
- bigger sensor size
- built in wireless tethering
what I'll likely get.....built in wireless strobe trigger
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156321\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I would like to have a performant back (30-40 Mpix) with a full 645 or 6/6 format
- with the possibility of working without Mac for the 4 shots (or 16 shots) mode (and with a good LCD viewer)
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Another thing that is starting to become an absolute necessity.
1) Both Firewire & USB2 data-connection.
Many of us like those tiny little laptop thingy's, the smaller the better but most of them don't carry the firewire port anymore
Not sure whether one USB2 port has enough power though.
Or....
2) A small tablet pc that can power and control the back, like A5 or A6 size.
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Cheap replaceable glass sensor screens would be nice
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I'd like to see 2 fps, an uber clean iso 400 for location work, a real medium format sensor (6x6 or 645 FF), and an amazing screen. I use my cameras 90% on location, so all of these things are what is holding me back from purchasing a back. I rent when its absolutely necessary (I need the file size for certain clients) but am sometimes frustrated with being limited by the equipment.
The onboard 20 gig drive would be nice, but totally not necessary as the price of 12 gig cards are dropping like crazy. A bluetooth connection could work out to be quite interesting as you could update camera settings and such without connecting the back...maybe a bit gimmicky.
I second the usb2 option. having the option of firewire (for when you're tethered in studio and have the tower right there) or usb2 when on the road would be quite nice.
Oh and did I mention a decent screen? This is one of the most frustrating things when shooting on location. For medium format cameras to make the "move" towards more integrated solutions, and valuable tools for people who have taken a "break" away from medium format and shoot mainly with DSLRs (high end pros) the screen issue needs to be addressed and the frame rate as well. Sure, these backs are made in small numbers, but if a product could be well featured (ie having everything i want;))and around a 10-15k mark, a lot more people might show interest. I'm not asking for any more than 22-30 megapixels in that big sensor I want.
I think all this will probably be better integrated in the next round of products...maybe then I'll actually purchase vs rent.