Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: nicolaasdb on November 15, 2007, 03:46:28 am
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I ordered a Aptus 65 from Calumet about one year ago...there were already rumours about the 65s back then. Bill Gemberling from Leaf visited me about 3 months ago telling me the 65s would be on the market by the end of August. He promised me to contact calumet (on my request, since they do not have it together...I guess spending 20k is not enough spending power an longer to be of interest).....anyway never heard back from Bill and never gotten a call from calumet to send my 65 back for a replacement (NOT a upgrade...Bill promised me!!)
Anybody with similar experience with leaf and calumet?? We are always talking about 3d and 2d, bit depth etc...but almost never about costumer service, which is very important now-a-days in the digital age!
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I totally agree.
I had a deal with Leaf to upgrade my A17 to the A65. From that moment on Calumet took over. Every question I asked remained unanswered until I asked 3 times.
I was supposed to do this at the end of september. In august I asked what it would cost me to upgrade to A65s and where I could send my money. I have repeated this question 3 times after which I gave up and bought a Hasselblad CF39.
I am very satisfied with Leaf as a back, manufacturer. I am also very impressed with the level of commitment of Leaf employees but I will never buy from Calumet. Since Calumet is the only Leaf dealer over here, this probably means I will not buy another Leaf.
Mind you this was not the first time I had problems with Calumet. The first time I simply bought my Leaf back in the US.
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I still have difficulties to believe that all manufacturers are only relying on a dealer network.
There are very good dealers out there but I dare to say they are outnumbered by the ones that don't give a damn about what they are selling as long as they make money.
I still don't believe why none of the back makers has an online entity to support their customers (buying, service, etc..) and starts taking over there where dealers are not performing. This will only hurt the dealers that aren't committed in the first place.
That way when you handle everything via a dealer they make sure they have real added value.
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Gentlemen,
By the way, do you know what the cost model is for upgrading from an Aptus-17 to 22?
Peter
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I ordered a Aptus 65 from Calumet about one year ago...there were already rumours about the 65s back then. Bill Gemberling from Leaf visited me about 3 months ago telling me the 65s would be on the market by the end of August. He promised me to contact calumet (on my request, since they do not have it together...I guess spending 20k is not enough spending power an longer to be of interest).....anyway never heard back from Bill and never gotten a call from calumet to send my 65 back for a replacement (NOT a upgrade...Bill promised me!!)
Anybody with similar experience with leaf and calumet?? We are always talking about 3d and 2d, bit depth etc...but almost never about costumer service, which is very important now-a-days in the digital age!
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=152991\")
i contacted the leaf regional mgr for my area directly about another matter, and we ultimately got around to talking about upgrading my back. he sent me a pdf outling the charges, and at that time i was told that i could either send it in directly to leaf or go through my dealer, which was calumet.
i have to say that i have gotten great service from the digital specialist at calumet.
the leaf regional mgrs. are listed on the leaf america contact page.
[a href=\"http://www.leafamerica.com/contact.asp]http://www.leafamerica.com/contact.asp[/url]
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the customer service is the WORST at Calumet. A year and a half ago I went into the store and asked for a demo of Aptus 22, as was considering purchasing the back. I had a call back a few days ago - one and a half years later!!!!! Will never do business with them.
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Yes i do agree with you as well. I am not even going to go through my issues just to say that was my one and only purchase I will ever make and had I known, I would not have made that one either. After they received the money it is as if they did not care
i contacted the leaf regional mgr for my area directly about another matter, and we ultimately got around to talking about upgrading my back. he sent me a pdf outling the charges, and at that time i was told that i could either send it in directly to leaf or go through my dealer, which was calumet.
i have to say that i have gotten great service from the digital specialist at calumet.
the leaf regional mgrs. are listed on the leaf america contact page.
http://www.leafamerica.com/contact.asp (http://www.leafamerica.com/contact.asp)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153048\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Calumet are crummy in the UK too.
Haughty and indifferent is a good description for their attitude to customers.
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I got my Aptus 75 from Calumet Hamburg/ Germany , and have been quite pleased by the service.
Not perfect, but far more than just satisfying, considering it's just one guy representing Leaf.
In general Calumet is pretty good and professional in Hamburg, but that might also have to do with the town being a media stronghold - and German .
No offence meant, I spent a lot of time in the US and like it there, but service can go from exceptional to beyond 3rd world, no matter what kind of business or money involved...
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and where is yiars comment now?? he is always the first to defend and tell how great leaf is as a company...part of this greatness is your dealer network and reps!
waiting for a satisfying answer leaf people!!!
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and where is yiars comment now?? he is always the first to defend and tell how great leaf is as a company...part of this greatness is your dealer network and reps!
waiting for a satisfying answer leaf people!!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153104\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Check your email
Yair
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I ordered a Aptus 65 from Calumet about one year ago...there were already rumours about the 65s back then. Bill Gemberling from Leaf visited me about 3 months ago telling me the 65s would be on the market by the end of August. He promised me to contact calumet (on my request, since they do not have it together...I guess spending 20k is not enough spending power an longer to be of interest).....anyway never heard back from Bill and never gotten a call from calumet to send my 65 back for a replacement (NOT a upgrade...Bill promised me!!)
Anybody with similar experience with leaf and calumet?? We are always talking about 3d and 2d, bit depth etc...but almost never about costumer service, which is very important now-a-days in the digital age!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152991\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I obviously cannot speak to your individual circumstance. However I will say that Bill Gemberling has been nothing but helpful to me going out of his way a couple of times.
When I lived closer to a Calumet store they were also very good to me with excellent care, but not much price competition.
With that said, I have for the last year been doing business with Bob Wilde, the pro rep from Samy's Camera here in Southern California. I have been treated exceptionally well, excellent service and prices.
Just relating my own experiences...
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I purchased my Leaf back from Calumet in LA. I will say they had, and still have very little knowledge of the product but the service and price with the purchase was very good. I receive better prices from Calumet then BH Photo.
Bill Gemberling is a nice guy and will try to help and go the extra mile. One problem Bill has is Leaf not having anwser or solotion for him to give. I know Leaf and Bill himeself read the fourm.
I have asked Calumet and Leaf for help to solve the same problem over a year and half with my Aptus 75 back with no solotion.
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Bill has been very helpful to me to...but he hasn't come thru since our last meeting and that makes me wonder if he left leaf...since he didn't return my email.
Yair thanks for your email..I hope that someone here (USA) will take action.
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I just looked at the Leaf america site and bill's name is no longer listed? Maybe he did leave? i know Leaf hired the Local Los Angeles Sinar rep to work with Leaf.
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thanks john, that is what I expected, since Bill didn't reply back at all! Still I expected Bill to email me or give me a courtesy call to let me know. I guess that is how the world is today! Nobody really gives a S..T anymore!!
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Calumet sucks in San Francisco too. A few nice people work there, but mostly they are very unhelpful and rude.
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Maybe call Mike Edwards, National Sales Manager. Mike was the first person I was in contact with before Bill.
thanks john, that is what I expected, since Bill didn't reply back at all! Still I expected Bill to email me or give me a courtesy call to let me know. I guess that is how the world is today! Nobody really gives a S..T anymore!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153199\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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In 1982 I began purchasing equipment from Calumet Bensenville. They were a mail order facility then, phone calls only. I got good, knowledgeable service. After five years I began purchasing equipment from a local vendor who provided service to my strobes and LF lenses, all of which I'd bought at Calumet Bensenville. Fast forward to my purchase of an Epson 9600 with ImagePrint and rolls of paper and they didn't know anything about the products other than price. They couldn't even track the order for me (the Epson printers manifested from another distributor). It was the last time I've ever purchased anything of significant cost from them.
Conversely, when I work in San Diego I'll rent from the Calumet in Escondido. I find the counter service is helpful and friendly. The rental department is on the ball, too, able to reserve lighting and grip for me weeks in advance of my arrival, with everything clean, fully functional, charged and ready to go.
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I have said it before here and I bave said it countless times at the old RG forums. If I had to walk into Calumet for anything, I would rather go back to using a holga for the rest of my career. They are by far the worst shop I have ever been to in the world. From the German location to the LA location. THEY FLAT OUT SUCK.
You have places like PPR, Capture Integration, DODD Camera, Image Productions, Samy's and countless guys that will spend hours on email and phone conversations with you until you make the right decision.
Then you you have other shit like Fotoscare and Digital Transition that won't talk to you until you hand over a credit card number.
Making a 15 to 30 thousand dollar investment is not an easy decision. Especially when that product is going to capture your "ART" and then help translate that to the world.
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okay let me clear this up a little..... I work out of the LA area..so the purchase of my leaf back was done thru calumet LA...Brad Allen was the sucky sales rep...who never even took the time to reply to my last email about the upgrade of my 65 for 65s.
When I book jobs in NYC I always rent from Calumet..the guys at the rental counter are the best!! I you are on the job and call them they will send a messenger to bring you extra equipment without ripping you a new one financially. They help you with loading and unloading and if equipment get mixed up they call and make sure you get it back (my assistants decided to return some of my own equipment, but what can you expect from a poor assistant when he is part of a team of 6! and gets paid 250-350 for the day).
I always like to be fair and I only realized 5 minutes ago that posting calumet sucks is too general of a statement. So I have to re-phrase: THE CALUMET SALES DEPARTMENT IN LA SUCK, ESPECIALLY THE SALES REP BRAD ALLEN...WHO NEVER EVEN RETURNS EMAILS!!
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I still don't get it why MFDB manufacturers rely so much upon a dealer network. Is that a relic from the time the MF market was much larger? A time before the Internet as a widespread medium?
Nowadays that market is much smaller, communication with (potential) clients is much faster and easier.
There is an excellent opportunity to talk/communicate directly to their end-customers for MFDB manufacturers. To have much more control over the market by having a direct relationship with the people that pay for all of it. This was not possible before. The best efforts, which can hardly be called efforts, are the user forums of Phase, Leaf & Sinar. These (maybe with the exception Phase) are very small and only a fraction of what they could be (and that is including the Phase Forum).
How is it possible they are hardly taking advantage of what is possible and are not stepping up to the plate?
Nicolaas, don't you sleep ?
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I still don't get it why MFDB manufacturers rely so much upon a dealer network. Is that a relic from the time the MF market was much larger? A time before the Internet as a widespread medium?
Nowadays that market is much smaller, communication with (potential) clients is much faster and easier.
There is an excellent opportunity to talk/communicate directly to their end-customers for MFDB manufacturers. To have much more control over the market by having a direct relationship with the people that pay for all of it. This was not possible before. The best efforts, which can hardly be called efforts, are the user forums of Phase, Leaf & Sinar. These (maybe with the exception Phase) are very small and only a fraction of what they could be (and that is including the Phase Forum).
How is it possible they are hardly taking advantage of what is possible and are not stepping up to the plate?
Nicolaas, don't you sleep ?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153505\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Manpower,
We have more than 100 dealers WW...that's 250-300 people on the road which is 4-5 times more than the whole of Leaf. I cover 3 countries and see customers 2-4 times a week. My dealers each see customers 5-6 times a week.
As great as the internet might be (it IS), the most important part of the pre-sale, sale and after-sale cycle is the one-on-one relationship with someone that if needed can jump in the car and come see you on-site.
Sometimes there are cases that take 10 minutes to resolve on-site which could take weeks to figure out from remote, no matter how fantastic the Internet is.
Many photographers are tech savvy but many more are not and these people require hands-on service from someone close.
Yair
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Manpower,
We have more than 100 dealers WW...that's 250-300 people on the road which is 4-5 times more than the whole of Leaf. I cover 3 countries and see customers 2-4 times a week. My dealers each see customers 5-6 times a week.
As great as the internet might be (it IS), the most important part of the pre-sale, sale and after-sale cycle is the one-on-one relationship with someone that if needed can jump in the car and come see you on-site.
Sometimes there are cases that take 10 minutes to resolve on-site which could take weeks to figure out from remote, no matter how fantastic the Internet is.
Many photographers are tech savvy but many more are not and these people require hands-on service from someone close.
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153509\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I always acknowledged that and never said you need to get rid of all dealers, there really are those that deliver added value. Manufacturers can do without the shitty dealers that are out there. If you encounter one as an end-user or if you can do without one there are no options available (yet)! How many of your dealers are really committed?
The one-on-one relationship you mention can perfectly co-exist with the more direct relationship between Manufacturer and end-user.
Just an example.
As you say there are many tech savvy photographers, I believe I am one of them. Why can't these have an online purchase facility directly on the Leaf Website? I know which model I would want (if I don't, I figure it out myself). If I need support I log on to the forum and know there are always people there that help me out. I have no problem to help out others in return (I have seen there are a lot more people that think exactly the same way). It would not take you guys that many manpower to get this going. If the product is really broken you can send it back to a provided address (which is exactly what happens currently with virtually everything you buy).
Another thing. On the Leaf forum I have seen the same questions pass from time to time. There still is no knowledge base where someone has taken the effort to categorize the types of problems you can encounter and their respective solutions.
A marketing thing. On every forum people are registered with their names & email addresses and most of the time with their products and serial numbers. Almost nothing is done with this. This is data (not information because it is not streamlined and used) that is not used but could be used. Why not send everybody a personalized message what their options are when there is a change (product, software, support, etc) (I get the Leaf Forum digest so there is a start). But why did I not get an email from Hasselblad telling me, 'He Ray, you can trade in your 384 for x amount to the new blabla or blabla, if you want to send Mr. X an email he is waiting for you.' These types of things can even be automated so it doesn't have to cost you a lot of manpower.
More options and ideas will cost you money
The people that want or need the extra attention can get it from dedicated dealers which will have more time because they don't have to deal with smart asses like myself.
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Its a very simple answer, antitrust. Leaf would only be able sell backs at list price. Leaf Aptus $32,000, Calumet will sell for $26,500. nobody would shop with Leaf. Its the same thing with Apple. They can only sell at retail list price, but stores can discount.
I still don't get it why MFDB manufacturers rely so much upon a dealer network. Is that a relic from the time the MF market was much larger? A time before the Internet as a widespread medium?
Nowadays that market is much smaller, communication with (potential) clients is much faster and easier.
Nicolaas, don't you sleep ?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153505\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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That is what I am afraid of as well.
In that case outsource your website shop, support area and user forum to a virtual dealer. If you really want to there are ways. Even ways where you don't offend your well-performing dealers.
Apple is an excellent example. Over here Apple sells via its website & there are shops that sell. Price in the shop is equal to the website but in the shop you get extra attention. Not perfect yet because you would want to sell cheaper via the web but that is probably a matter of time, already they offer hardware deals that are together cheaper than in the shop.
There is more than one example where prices in webshops are lower which is perfectly rational.
There will always be people that want to buy via a shop and get the extra attention. If at any time in history everybody is fine with shopping online than there isn't any problem anymore isn't there ? It is just that rotten start-up period and in between.
I agree this can be difficult. I have worked on outlet schemes for several (very big) parties that felt they were in a bad position because they were depending on few parties to place there goods in the market. On some occasions we were succesfull on others they just had to live with it because they did not dare to take the necessary steps.
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I don't understand that dealer network part either...it is great to have that option...but in my case I called Leaf directly and a leaf rep came by for a demo.....I called calumet and they asked me to come to the store!! So I can hold the back instore and point it at a couple of shopping costumers, and listen to the sales reps BS sales pitch?? Don't think so!
But I really don't care how a company decides to do business... I only care about getting my upgrade.... I was shooting with the Leaf Aptus 65 (write it out on purpose...search engine!!) Yesterday and had nothing but problems!!!! All day LONG. So my reason to get a new back is 2 fold!! I need a functioning back and I need a faster back!
I downloaded the newest V11 software, conected my back and it installed the new software....but it still freezes up, doesn't want to turn off and I have to hard reset it (taking battery off) almost 10 times during a 5 hour shoot....pretty amateur and annoying!
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Its a very simple answer, antitrust. Leaf would only be able sell backs at list price. Leaf Aptus $32,000, Calumet will sell for $26,500. nobody would shop with Leaf. Its the same thing with Apple. They can only sell at retail list price, but stores can discount.
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I don't understand what antitrust laws have to do with this? Also, I regularly get 5 - 10% off in buying direct from Apple via an my Apple sales rep.
-Ron H.
PS: Back on topic regarding Calumet, I get highly variable service from the SF store. Overall, they aren't a particularly happy crowd, but a couple of their employees really know their stuff and have an interest in helping people.
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I am not sure it is an antitrust issue either. However, it is correct that most Manufacturers sell at retail prices because they do not want to compete with their dealers. The dealers do the bulk of the sales and if the dealers are competiting with the manufacturers then the retailers may elect not to carry a particular line. Sometimes the manufacturer will set the price for the retail market and if the dealer discounts, they will no longer allow them to be an authorized dealership. M
I don't understand what antitrust laws have to do with this? Also, I regularly get 5 - 10% off in buying direct from Apple via an my Apple sales rep.
-Ron H.
PS: Back on topic regarding Calumet, I get highly variable service from the SF store. Overall, they aren't a particularly happy crowd, but a couple of their employees really know their stuff and have an interest in helping people.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153650\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I bought my Leaf Aptus 22 from Calumet in Drummond street in London, and found dealing with Sue Jacobs there a real pleasure. Quick responses to queries and very helpful. Let me use an Aptus 75 for about 2 weeks for free while I was waiting for mine to arrive... that's pretty damn good!
I am sure that some dealers are crap but a blanket statement about all of Calumet is not correct.
I would recommend them from my dealings.
Have a good one!
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Try buying with a discount from apple directly? The only way around it is the student discount. I have never heard of them actually checking the statues to see if its really a student. If you want another example the Sony store only sells items at retail list. If an item is discontinued they can then offer a discount.
I don't understand what antitrust laws have to do with this? Also, I regularly get 5 - 10% off in buying direct from Apple via an my Apple sales rep.
-Ron H.
PS: Back on topic regarding Calumet, I get highly variable service from the SF store. Overall, they aren't a particularly happy crowd, but a couple of their employees really know their stuff and have an interest in helping people.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153650\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I do agree Calumet can be good and bad. I happen to have a very good working relationship with calumet and get prices better then B&H Photo. The one major complaint I have they never have stuff in stock and I am stuck going to Samy's. I don't know who Brad Allen is, but I deal with Brad Axiom. (spelling) I think you have to also be pro active with Leaf and call Rick. If Leaf doe's not have it together, nothing calumet can do.
okay let me clear this up a little..... I work out of the LA area..so the purchase of my leaf back was done thru calumet LA...Brad Allen was the sucky sales rep...who never even took the time to reply to my last email about the upgrade of my 65 for 65s.
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I walked into the rental department of my local Leaf dealer who is not Calumet and asked if I could rent an A22/H Mount so I could compare a A22 file against my A75 files. The gentleman said, "I won't take your money but you can borrow the A22 whenever you like". So I've been playing with the H1/A22. Holy shit! I like these A22 files! Now what do you think that AFi5 would be like?
David
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I don't know who Brad Allen is, but I deal with Brad Axiom. (spelling) I think you have to also be pro active with Leaf and call Rick. If Leaf doe's not have it together, nothing calumet can do.
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You are right it is Brad Axen, and he should be "axed" form calument. He never returns calls or emails ( I emailed last monday...never replied!!)
The first time I did business with him he kept on forgetting to put me on the then waiting list for the 65 and when the order finally came the adapter for the mamiya 67 had the A75 screen instead of the A65, which is a pain, because you can't guess where the sensor stops and make the right crop)
I had to hunt him for about 10 weeks to get the right screen!
He has my Creditcard info and I told him to charge me when the 65s would be available and start the procedure....I guess he doesn't work on commission. The upgrade is not for free, so I am not getting a deal or nothing.
But we will see what Mike form Leaf says and I guess I will take delivery thru Samy's or another dealer....
remember my Leaf back is a f'ing lemon as well, that thing constantly freezes up and the left side of the image (when shooting underexposed) is green and the other side is magenta....not so fantastic and they don't know what to do about it.....I am not rich enough to have a backup back.... I decided to wait for the upgrade so they could just send me a new DB and throw the one I have now off of a building.