Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: thsinar on November 05, 2007, 10:09:06 am
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Dear all,
here the recently published "Press Release" from Jenoptik AG.
I hope this does definitively clarify things.
Best regards,
Thierry
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And that's the press release for the launch of the camera that's supposed to be the future of digital photography? My god....
They are obviously no marketing gurus...
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At quick glance it seems as though everything in this release has been said previously.
Dear all,
here the recently published "Press Release" from Jenoptik AG.
I hope this does definitively clarify things.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150674\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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it's not the press release of the camera, but the one to state who are and who are not partners of this project.
Why is it so difficult to understand and need to be distorted that way? It has nothing to do with marketing a product, but giving TRUE information and RESPONSE to the latest speculations and rumors. Period.
Best regards,
Thierry
And that's the press release for the launch of the camera that's supposed to be the future of digital photography? My god....
They are obviously no marketing gurus...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150677\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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that's what I was trying to make everybody understand here.
Now it is from Jenotpik itself, and may be more credible for some.
Thierry
At quick glance it seems as though everything in this release has been said previously.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150678\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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It still doesn't convince me that phase one or brand xxx couldn't make a back that works with this camera. Time will tell.
it's not the press release of the camera, but the one to state who are and who are not partners of this project.
Why is it so difficult to understand and need to be distorted that way? It has nothing to do with marketing a product, but giving TRUE information and RESPONSE to the latest speculations and rumors. Period.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150680\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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that was not the content of your claim in earlier posts.
As for making a back that works with it, you are absolutely right: time will tell.
Best regards,
Thierry
It still doesn't convince me that phase one or brand xxx couldn't make a back that works with this camera. Time will tell.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150682\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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It still doesn't convince me that phase one or brand xxx couldn't make a back that works with this camera. Time will tell.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150682\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Me neither
Although I imagine brand XXX would need to by rolleiflexes with film back that would then be binned or canibalised
Thereis a thread about epson and ink on the papers board which seems to say fake ink is not allowed - seems to be a similar situation
S
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I hope this does definitively clarify things.
The statement, "It is designed to work exclusively with Leaf and Sinar digital backs...."
appears to be quite clear :>))
Mark
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The statement, "It is designed to work exclusively with Leaf and Sinar digital backs...."
appears to be quite clear :>))
Mark
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=150690\")
Not really.
A BMW is not designed to be used with third party alloy low profile wheels
You can still buy them and put em on though.
My sinar P2 is not designed to be used with a phase back - yet I have a phase adapter
(in fact this is an H mount sliding back adapter - did phase have to pay sinar or blad I wonder for thier fleaxadapter)
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A clear statement would be
"We have built an encrypted code into the firmware and only backs broadcasting a the correct key will work - so dont even bother Mr Phase" *
Or
"Using Legal Act ABC123 will we sue the arse off anyone messing with our camera patented mount etc"
It is clear that they wont be helping phase though
S
*I doubt that is thae case becuase it would need to be backdated to all sinar backs unless there is a lockout on the way
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Epson links of interest..
[a href=\"http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=20648]LL Thread[/url]
Epson plays hardball (http://itc.epson.com/)
Further thinking ..
Stigma Lenses
Third party softboxes
Nikon F mount horseman digiflex etc
All interface with brand specific mounts
licenenced ? illegal ? or just the way of the world ?
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My statement has always been that I believe that phase one is making a back that can connect to the hy6. As to how and when it will be released I can not say.
I don't work for a camera company as everyone knows.
that was not the content of your claim in earlier posts.
As for making a bakc that works with it, you are absolutely right: time will tell.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150683\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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your statement was that there would be an annoucement from PO about the adaption to the Hy6 with a possible model available at the Photo Expo in NYC. Your source was not cited but claimed to be sure to be trustful.
As someone working for a camera company, I have to correct such misleading information, being it misleading from you or from your source.
I hope you can understand this.
Best regards,
Thierry
My statement has always been that I believe that phase one is making a back that can connect to the hy6. As to how and when it will be released I can not say.
I don't work for a camera company as everyone knows.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150700\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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As someone working for a camera company, I have to correct such misleading information, being it misleading from you or from your source.
I hope you can understand this.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150701\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
How can you know what Phase are doing - do you work for Phase? No
All they need to do is buy a camera and a film back
rip up the film back and the engineers can have a drawing made of the mount the same day
probably could be in production in a week with CAD/CNC technology
ten minutes with a voltmeter and they probably know the firing specs (not comunication protocols)
Then there you go - phase hy6 mount - no ISO transfer etc but who really cares about that stuff
You have not made clear why this is not possible although I have suggested a couple of possible reasons - encryption and patent breach
I would imagine phase would wait a year to see if anyone buys the things and if they are reliable though
S
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You are right, as for knowing what PO is doing, and that's why I don't speak about it.
What I have problems with are speculations and information heard from trustful sources, turning into rumors. And it was presented and turned as something being "official", not a solution like you describe it below. When it involves the company I am working for, it is my duty to rectify, and I shall do it with my information anytime. In this I am like TechTalk.
Unfortunately this information was read by some dozens of members, before being deleted. And it did turn into an amplified rumor, to a point where everybody was waiting the morning of the opening of this exhibition with the certainty of this rumor in mind.
This being said: I am well aware what is possible to do or not with a camera and its communication protocols or the manufacturing of an adapter plate in one day (Graham did it in a couple of days, with drawings).
I simply wish one could speculate as much on when Phase or Sinar or else will be having their adapter plate for the H3D (I or II). It seems to me that this H3D back can be taken away, thus manufacturing an adapter is as much possible as for the Hy6, isn't it?
Best regards,
Thierry
How can you know what Phase are doing
All they need to do is buy a camera and a film back
rip up the film back and the engineers can have a drawing made of the mount the same day
probably could be in production in a week with CAD/CNC technology
ten minutes with a voltmeter and they probably know the firing specs (not comunication protocols)
Then there you go phase hy6 mount - no ISO transfer etc
You have not made clear why this is not possible although I have suggested a couple of reasons encryption and patent breach
S
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150702\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I simply wish one could speculate as much on when Phase or Sinar or else will be having their adapter plate for the H3D (I or II). It seems to me that this H3D back can be taken away, thus manufacturing an adapter is as much possible as for the Hy6, isn't it?
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150707\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
So you arent ruling out an unofficial version or stating why that is a non runner.
In terms of the H4D with multipoint AF and a 55 shift lens (pure speculation )
I would be well up for a hack and very interested
I thought (a guess) that the H2/3 are not phisically different but there was firmware encryption stopping it
S
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Sam,
if you read my posts since January of this year, I have always said that it is up to Phase to tell officially if they plan to do some kind of adaption for the Sinar Hy6, always. But that is certainly not our "problem" and to explain it how this can work (or why not).
So now let's speculate on the H3D with the competition's adaption solutions: it will put a bit the "pressure" on others, instead on me!
It is my opinion that I have provided the necessary information, from a possibly well trustful source. There isn't much to add to it, IMO and from my side.
Best regards,
Thierry
So you arent ruling out an unofficial version or stating why that is a non runner.
In terms of the H4D with multipoint AF and a 55 shift lens (sure speculation )
I would be well up for a hack and very interested
I thought (a guess) that the H2/3 are not phisically different but there was firmware encryption stopping it
S
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150711\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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There is no pressure - its all ones and noughts on a screen
My understanding
The ball is in phases' court
They will not get any help or support - the project would be unoffical
They may or may not hit a legal or technical wall which you wont reveal
So Phase uers will have to wait
And I can carry on being happy using my Sinar on a H1 for a while
And my guess - there is no legal or technical wall - if there was you would have revealed it to quash the rumour mill
My conclusion - it could happen - very differnet from the press release unless you read between the lines
S
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I simply wish one could speculate as much on when Phase or Sinar or else will be having their adapter plate for the H3D (I or II). It seems to me that this H3D back can be taken away, thus manufacturing an adapter is as much possible as for the Hy6, isn't it?
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150707\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Oh, but seriously. I would be impressed with that and why not? I hope PO & Sinar will do that.
Almost as much as I hope that Hasselblad will make an adapter for the H3D (I or II).
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Come on guys, how stupid do you want to be? [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150722\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Actually I dont think this is stupid
There might be a Hy6 phase adapter round the corner (a year or two my guess)
Everone seems to agree that this is possible
It is clear that it wont be 'supported'
But in terms of firmware I dont see that a lockout is possible without locking out existant Sinar backs
Considering some people may be considering some very expensive system changes that may not be neccesary it would be stupid not to push the point
It is importatnt that those people make thier desicsions with thier eyes as open as they can be
No disrespect to the manufacturers who are using any means possible to push thier product (that is of course thier job) but they need to be watched very carefully - the internet is a great tool for doing that
This press release is an example information clouding in the interest of a particular manufacturer with no technical or legal weight behind it
To be fair it has clarified the 'support' issue
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Oh and on the H3 thing (no 28 for non H3ers)- I have just discovered the fire with no lens facility on my H1 and have been shooting with manual Mamiya lenses taped on the front
Its good for 125/th as far as I can see (dont know about flash yet) - im going to get my fisheye reverse engineered - A big saving on a total system change and I can get a 55 rise I reckon
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S
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You've seen? Like this and the following post one starts a rumor!
Thierry
Thierry, when do you think Sinar will make an adapter for the H3D? Will it have electronic coupling or not?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150722\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I'm really asking myself what more one neeeds to do to satisfy some and being given some credit.
But if you wish to understand it that way it is absolutely your right.
Thierry
This press release is an example information clouding in the interest of a particular manufacturer with no technical or legal weight behind it
To be fair it has clarified the 'support' issue
S
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150729\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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- there is no adapter planed for the H3D from Sinar: clearly and unequivocally answered
- "This is what we want and these choices are the result of that wish": the press release can be understood that way and it says it clearly.
Enough for me on this topic, this starts to be ridiculous.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry,
I thought you wanted a rumor about this. Now you have a chance to get it and you let it slip!
Ah, just kidding. But seriously, you could answer with hard and cold information, being the official Sinar representative that you are. It would help taking out the core of unneeded speculation.
"This is what we want and these choices are the result of that wish".
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150776\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I'm really asking myself what more one neeeds to do to satisfy some and being given some credit.
But if you wish to understand it that way it is absolutely your right.
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150768\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Perhaps there has been confusion in the past about Jenoptik/Sinar's position on this issue, but at this point there should be no doubt. Here is the relevant statement from the Press Release: "It[the Hy6 camera] is designed to work exclusively with Sinar or Leaf digital backs or the Franke & Heidecke
analogue film backs." The intention behind that statement is every bit as clear as Hasselblad's intention in the way it has designed the H3D to only work with Hasselblad backs.
I understand Thierry's frustration over people's inability to accept the reality that Phase is not part of the Hy6 platform. Jenoptik and Leaf have invested millions of dollars in trying to innovate a state of the art camera to serve as a platform for an integrated system using their digital backs and 90% of the comments in this forum are directed to how, when, whether Phase backs will attach to the Hy6. I would suggest that such energy would be more profitably spent buying a Sinar or Leaf Hy6 and taking Phase One to task for sitting on its hands rather than investing serious money like the other MFDB makers in trying to innovate new products. Unless, of course, you think buying up used cameras from KEH and Ebay to serve as replacements or jury rigging Phase backs to work on a Hasselblad H2F qualify as innovations.
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The Rollei HY6 has a digital interface according to their literature (http://www.franke-heidecke.net/files/images/Pr_Hy6_GB_4S_24.7.07.pdf). Seems to me that Phase or anyone else can develop a compatible back.
Reminds me of IBM's development of the advanced "Phase Encoded" tape drive technology some thirty years ago. Within a week Storage Technology Corp announced the same tape drives, fully compatible with the IBM drive and they announced availability several months ahead of IBM's drives!
Market pressures might make these cameras available for use with other backs.
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I understand Thierry's frustration over people's inability to accept the reality that Phase is not part of the Hy6 platform.
.... I would suggest that such energy would be more profitably spent buying a Sinar
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150786\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
People
I own sinarback and have done for years - I didnt buy a phase because I didnt like the lack of adapters so I did take phase one to task - with my wallet
It is quite clear that Phase are not part of or welcome on this platform
But I have still seen no technical or legal reason why they cant be on it -whether J/S/L like it or not
And if they can/might be on the platform it is important to phase owners to know this it could have serious affect on thier future purchasing decisions
TH has not answered thie why question lots of times and I wouldnt expect him to - while he is an excellent and appreciated poster at some point he will put his job and companies interests above absolute openness IMO
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Imagine owning phase and changing systems at $000s and two months later realising that you could have changed system for free as part of the 'mount swap program' offered by phase
Of course J/S/L want you to buy thier (excellent) products and the info from them will push you in that diection whether it is best for you or not
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MF adopters of the recent past like myself H1/Sinarback find they are in a bit of a mess with their systems
The thing I find most confusing is that the manufactureres should all be offereing great swap/trade packages to dive right into thier system
No one has approched me to go pure blad or pure sinar with an attractive offer
I am a very happy camper with my current system - a little peeved to not be able to access the HC28- but generally very happy - so I persue no agenda apart from an open exchange of information with the phtographers interest at the core
S
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Sam,
yes, I did not answer this, purposely and for different reasons. Partly for the reason you mention (I dont want to loose my job - ), but also because I don't see it as my (our) duty to give such "details".
Did Hasselblad provide any single information on their H3D platform? Not even after 1 year. Nobody seems to be concerned much about this and the details. And not a single person has ever asked about it on this forum.
Best regards,
Thierry
... But I have still seen no technical or legal reason why they cant be on it -whether J/S/L like it or not[/b]
TH has not answered thie why question lots of times and I wouldnt expect him to - while he is an excellent and appreciated poster at some point he will put his job and companies interests above absolute openness IMO
S
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150845\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Sam,
yes, I did not answer this, purposely and for different reasons. Partly for the reason you mention (I dont want to loose my job - ), but also because I don't see it as my (our) duty to give such "details".
Did Hasselblad provide any single information on their H3D platform? Not even after 1 year. Nobody seems to be concerned much about this and the details. And not a single person has ever asked about it on this forum.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150851\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Mate. I wouldnt expect you to and I am not 'knocking' you for not
I also dont think you are lying or even holding back the information you have
I am more trying to make sure other users (consumers) dont see manufactuers websites/posts etc as THE WHOLE PICUTRE
In term of the H3d - yes there was a lot of noise - both an essay by MR, two now, and numerous posts by users who had been 'locked out' - enough noise for this site to get a rep as 'hassy bashers dot com'
Its not like you are even locking out your existing user base
Obviously, to me, the fact that the Hy6 takes two brands of back and is a much broader church of companies in the development makes 'your' system much more open to speculation
I try to base my speculations on the core basic engineering principals of each system not wild fantasy which I think is beyond the accepted remit of this board
Hopefully you and other readers understand the difference between my speculations and the rumours posted by other users on occasion - I try to be careful with my language
Is there value to speculation ? well I have been speculating for some time that there would be a decent nikon and have accordingly not made a big loss on trading my 14-600 nikon lens collection - and consequentially saved $000s I have also not purchased any Dx lenses saving a few more $00
Speculation on a 66 chip is surely a big seller on the Hy6
And speculation is fun
As ever we will have to agree to disagree and enjoy a variance of opinon
S
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Mate. I wouldnt expect you to and I am not 'knocking' you for not
I also dont think you are lying or even holding back the information you have
I am more trying to make sure other users (consumers) dont see manufactuers websites/posts etc as THE WHOLE PICUTRE
S
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=150854\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
There was also the earlier assertion that TH wasn't being totally forthright due to his need to keep his job... etc. It doesn't seem appropriate to cast his discretion in that light: corporate representatives operate within clear rule structures, and TH has been VERY clear as to what those are. And he has, to his credit, been unwilling to bend them, just because we have a desire to know more about things outside of his purview.
Repeated efforts to get him to participate in speculation would seem unnecessary, IMO. If we can't separate our thoughts from his professional responsibilties, then I'd suggest we need a bit more work on our end, not his. Lets let him off center stage and go about our business with his help. Can we let this go now?
G
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Very much agreed. I really value the willingness of Thierry to participate and the content of his contributions here!