Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Streetwise on September 11, 2007, 12:57:36 pm
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Note: I had mistakenly posted this under DLSR and have moved it here to it's proper place.
I own an Aptus 65 back and have recently purchased a Cambo DS Wide for it. As for lenses, I've been renting from a large company in Chicago, but they only stock the Schneider Apo-Digitar XL lenses. After my first batch of wide images, I was disappointed to see an odd color shift in the images from one side of the frame to the other. I did some research and found out about the "lens cast" and "centerfold" phenomenon with shooting ultra-wide. A call to Leaf America put me on to a utility called the "Custom Gain Adjuster".
What I would like to know, is exactly how do you go about using this software? I could not find a users guide, but I may have just missed it. I did not get a white piece of plexiglass with my back. Would any old piece of white plexi work?
Secondly, according to Leaf's May 2007 Tech bulletin, "Leaf Aptus Backs and Ultra-Wide Angle Photography", they state that the lenses noted for causing the worst issues are the Schneider Apo-Digitar XL lenses. They suggest the Rodenstock Apo-Sironar digital HR lenses instead. Do you know who rents these lenses in the U.S.? The firm in Chicago does not.
As for "Best Practices", here are my questions:
- Do you typically create your custom gain files in the field, or after-the-fact, in the studio (via strobes)? If so, is it just a matter of writing down the aperture and V/H shift settings so they can be duplicated in the studio?
- If you produce gain files in the field, how would that work? It seems that if you were to put a piece of white plexiglass in front of the lens, it would eliminate most of the light.... So a 1 sec f/8 field exposure would produce a very dark (unusable?) gain exposure assuming a piece of plexi was put in front of the lens to create the gain file.
I'm just trying to understand how you personally go about shooting and applying the Custom Gain Adjustment to your files, and also what lenses you are using.
Thanks,
David Anderson
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Do a search on LL for Leaf and gain utility and you will find lots of info.
1st you should call Rick Adshead at Leaf in NYC, or Ed Meyers at calumet where you got the camera.
2nd If you want to use the 24xl you have to shoot schneider. I believe you will still have to shoot the gain with the rodenstock lenses. You also get the benefit of correcting lens fall off.
3rd The gain is easy to shoot just call Rick and ask about the white disc or just shoot plain white plexi. You need to open 2 stop to get a correct exposure. I cheat and flash a strobe at the lens from 15 inches away.
Note: I had mistakenly posted this under DLSR and have moved it here to it's proper place.
I own an Aptus 65 back and have recently purchased a Cambo DS Wide for it. As for lenses, I've been renting from a large company in Chicago, but they only stock the Schneider Apo-Digitar XL lenses. After my first batch of wide images, I was disappointed to see an odd color shift in the images from one side of the frame to the other. I did some research and found out about the "lens cast" and "centerfold" phenomenon with shooting ultra-wide. A call to Leaf America put me on to a utility called the "Custom Gain Adjuster".
What I would like to know, is exactly how do you go about using this software? I could not find a users guide, but I may have just missed it. I did not get a white piece of plexiglass with my back. Would any old piece of white plexi work?
Secondly, according to Leaf's May 2007 Tech bulletin, "Leaf Aptus Backs and Ultra-Wide Angle Photography", they state that the lenses noted for causing the worst issues are the Schneider Apo-Digitar XL lenses. They suggest the Rodenstock Apo-Sironar digital HR lenses instead. Do you know who rents these lenses in the U.S.? The firm in Chicago does not.
As for "Best Practices", here are my questions:
- Do you typically create your custom gain files in the field, or after-the-fact, in the studio (via strobes)? If so, is it just a matter of writing down the aperture and V/H shift settings so they can be duplicated in the studio?
- If you produce gain files in the field, how would that work? It seems that if you were to put a piece of white plexiglass in front of the lens, it would eliminate most of the light.... So a 1 sec f/8 field exposure would produce a very dark (unusable?) gain exposure assuming a piece of plexi was put in front of the lens to create the gain file.
I'm just trying to understand how you personally go about shooting and applying the Custom Gain Adjustment to your files, and also what lenses you are using.
Thanks,
David Anderson
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As for "Best Practices", here are my questions:
- Do you typically create your custom gain files in the field, or after-the-fact, in the studio (via strobes)? If so, is it just a matter of writing down the aperture and V/H shift settings so they can be duplicated in the studio?
- If you produce gain files in the field, how would that work? It seems that if you were to put a piece of white plexiglass in front of the lens, it would eliminate most of the light.... So a 1 sec f/8 field exposure would produce a very dark (unusable?) gain exposure assuming a piece of plexi was put in front of the lens to create the gain file.
I'm just trying to understand how you personally go about shooting and applying the Custom Gain Adjustment to your files, and also what lenses you are using.
Thanks,
David Anderson
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138662\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/quote]
David
Shooting the gain files can be done very simply. (or LCC-Phase or WhiteReference-Sinar,Hassy has some sort of a solution...can't comment , have not used the Hassy backs on view cameras)
My work flow whether shooting tethered in Leaf V8 or to a card is very simple;
I shoot a gain file for every new camera position with a piece of white plexiglass in front of the
lens. Typically it is about +2 fstop....... the exposure of this gain file is centered in the histogram.
This grayish gain file is saved in the shoot folder and visually separates ( like a bookmark) all the different camera positions.
Use the Custom Gain Adjuster utility to apply these grayish gain files to your selects ( this creates
a new set of raw files with the color/density anomalies addressed in a different folder than the original captures.....in this way you have the original capture as well as the new adjusted raw) and process to your liking in your preferred raw developer. Pretty straight forward workflow wise and very effective if you shoot a camera with lens movements.
You can think of these files as custom profiles or an optical pixel map that takes into account non axial lens movements as well as specific lighting anomalies. The Leaf and the Sinar solutions address both density and color "casts", currently Leaf has a further ability to control the inherent optical vignetting with a 0-100% slider. I think the Phase solution addresses only the color casts, however their tethered solution allows you to view on the laptop corrected jpg previews......nice feature for when an art director is peeking at the laptop, but pretty useless for an ultrawide angle interior shooter that needs to see a preview with the lens vignette density
corrected so he or she can figure out what needs to be lit.
Hint, Hint Leaf, Sinarand Hassy....please have a tethered solution that allows the photographer to see files with the density anomalies corrected on the laptop wihtout redesigning or not supporting the current solutions.
Hopefully Thierry, Yair, and Steve Hendrix can eloborate whats brewing........I am sure we will have to have our money ready for the next upgrade/update
Currently, the Leaf gain adjuster is a separate utility and is not incorporated with V11 software......I think this is great!
It is a little clunkier to use but the upside is that you get raw files with anomalies/color casts removed and a custom controlled lens vignette density ready to be processed in the soup of your choice...........Leaf V11, LightRoom, ACR, Raw developer........
regards
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Prakash,
I understood you have to put appr. 2 stops of light more on the custom gain shots. I never took the time to actually start using custom gain but I was under the impression you could not open your lens because you had to keep the same aperture as the shots that you want to correct?
So you either have to set shutter speed slower or have strobes put out 2 stops more light.
Since I work mostly in studio which is totally dark for me it is no use setting a slower shutter speed.
My strobes are not powerful enough to give me 2 more stops. These are the primary reasons I never bothered putting a lot of time in custom gain.
Do I read correctly that you can open up your lens 2 stops even if that is not the aperture that you will be using in the actual shots??
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Sorry if I answer for Prakash!
NO, you cannot open the aperture: you HAVE TO use the same f-stop as your actual image on which this shading should be applied, otherwise the shading will be wrong.
Best regards,
Thierry
Do I read correctly that you can open up your lens 2 stops even if that is not the aperture that you will be using in the actual shots??
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138794\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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It takes a few step but I just shoot the Gain in V8 and upload the file to the back. I then shoot my images in V10. I am going to try V11.2 since it now works with V8. I just use a simple $35 mini strobe screwed into a socket pointed directly at the lens approximately 15 inchs away.
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Sorry if I answer for Prakash!
NO, you cannot open the aperture: you HAVE TO use the same f-stop as your actual image on which this shading should be applied, otherwise the shading will be wrong.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138796\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That is what I thought as well. Thanks Thierry.
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It takes a few step but I just shoot the Gain in V8 and upload the file to the back. I then shoot my images in V10. I am going to try V11.2 since it now works with V8. I just use a simple $35 mini strobe screwed into a socket pointed directly at the lens approximately 15 inchs away.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138806\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
How do you determine how much you flash into the lens? Guestimation? Doesn't it alter the scene/elements that need to be corrected (different cast and light fall of because of the additional light)?
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Prakash,
I understood you have to put appr. 2 stops of light more on the custom gain shots. I never took the time to actually start using custom gain but I was under the impression you could not open your lens because you had to keep the same aperture as the shots that you want to correct?
So you either have to set shutter speed slower or have strobes put out 2 stops more light.
Since I work mostly in studio which is totally dark for me it is no use setting a slower shutter speed.
My strobes are not powerful enough to give me 2 more stops. These are the primary reasons I never bothered putting a lot of time in custom gain.
Do I read correctly that you can open up your lens 2 stops even if that is not the aperture that you will be using in the actual shots??
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138794\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
with sinar you should not have problems with non-shiftable lenses because the centerfold is removed "on the fly" in any case. the white shots have nothing to with this.
i suppose you speak from "normal" mf lenses? in this case you should be able to shoot one white reference profile at a middle aperture and use that for the whole shooting.
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How do you determine how much you flash into the lens? Guestimation? Doesn't it alter the scene/elements that need to be corrected (different cast and light fall of because of the additional light)?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138825\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ray,
The diffuse filter, as its name states, is strong enough to eliminate any variations of light coming from different directions.
The filter takes about 2 stops off the exposure so you will have to compensate by using a lower shutter speed or by throwing more light in, like John does. The purpose of this is to reduce any noise coming from an under exposed image.
All back manufacturers use a similar technique, more or less.
This process is planned to be implemented into LC11 in one of the coming versions, most likely before the end of this year.
In the meantime (for Prakash), what I do is setting LC11 (or any other converter) to watch the folder with the corrected files, including different versions with different vignetting adjustments, if needed.
I can use the finder for sorting/ naming the gain files and the to-be-corrected RAW files, so clients only see the "proper" images.
I hope this helps
Yair
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One real advantage with the Leaf Custom Gain Adjuster is that if you expose the gain file right after the real exposes, without removing the back, it "removes" the dust spots in the process, so you end up with a clean file.
It will be fine with the gain adjuster in LC11, but please still provide the Custom Gain Adjuster as a stand alone application, so we can use the developer by our choice - it's great with that kind of flexibility.
/Adam
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It takes a few step but I just shoot the Gain in V8 and upload the file to the back. I then shoot my images in V10. I am going to try V11.2 since it now works with V8. I just use a simple $35 mini strobe screwed into a socket pointed directly at the lens approximately 15 inchs away.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138806\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm not sure I understand why you shoot your Gain in V8? Isn't a gain file basically just another exposure with the diffuser and +2 EI?
Dave
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I'm not sure I understand why you shoot your Gain in V8? Isn't a gain file basically just another exposure with the diffuser and +2 EI?
Dave
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138840\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Dave hi,
V8 allows you to create a custom gain file that can be loaded into the back when tethered to either V8 or LC11. It sits under Camera>Calibration>Gain. You can store a library of these files and load them as required, so as you shoot the images come up corrected for casts and falloff.
A simplified version of this process is going to be implemented into LC11 in the near future.
Yair
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Dear Prakash,
there is a tethered solution for SB eMotions, with the Brumbaer Tools.
The workflow for applying the "white shadings" is even faster and simplier than for any other application: all you have to do is to shoot your shadings before your actual image. This shading will be AUTOMATICALLY applied to the right image file by the application. You don't have to bother about "which shading corresponds to which image"! And this can even be done in batch process, on entire image folders of as many images you wish.
Also, the RAWs are ALWAYS kept and the "shaded" images are saved separately.
Best regards,
Thierry
Hint, Hint, Sinar....please have a tethered solution that allows the photographer to see files with the density anomalies corrected on the laptop wihtout redesigning or not supporting the current solutions.
Hopefully Thierry can eloborate whats brewing........
Currently, the Leaf gain adjuster is a separate utility and is not incorporated with V11 software......I think this is great!
regards
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138790\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I always have a finished captured file with no post production correction needed. The V8 software takes about 4-5 min to do the gain file. The Gain Adjuster stand alone takes about 30 sec on location and a few min in post. Another reason is lighting, If you use the gain in v8 you see a finished image, If you use the gain adjuster in post it can alter the lighting effect I want.
I'm not sure I understand why you shoot your Gain in V8? Isn't a gain file basically just another exposure with the diffuser and +2 EI?
Dave
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I guesstimate my starting point, but the software will tell me if I am to bright or dark.
How do you determine how much you flash into the lens? Guestimation? Doesn't it alter the scene/elements that need to be corrected (different cast and light fall of because of the additional light)?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138825\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I always have a finished captured file with no post production correction needed. The V8 software takes about 4-5 min to do the gain file. The Gain Adjuster stand alone takes about 30 sec on location and a few min in post. Another reason is lighting, If you use the gain in v8 you see a finished image, If you use the gain adjuster in post it can alter the lighting effect I want.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138938\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
on which machine it takes 4-5 minutes?
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It takes 8 shots to create the Gain file in V8. from start to Finnish upload to the back. I use a 17 inch macpro. I am hoping the V11 will only take 1 shot like the stand alone gain adjuster.
on which machine it takes 4-5 minutes?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138942\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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In the meantime (for Prakash), what I do is setting LC11 (or any other converter) to watch the folder with the corrected files, including different versions with different vignetting adjustments, if needed.
I can use the finder for sorting/ naming the gain files and the to-be-corrected RAW files, so clients only see the "proper" images.
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138833\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yair
Sorry for the geeky inquiry...........can you please explain this in more detail.
for tethered shooting, are you saying that there is some sort of script that automatically applies the identified gain file to the subsequent image files and exports the corrected file to a watched folder in Leaf Capture 11? So while you are shooting and refining lighting you can see the last shot with the gain file applied automatically? Is this some sort of a work around for the upcoming tethered feature that you mentioned?
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Yair
Sorry for the geeky inquiry...........can you please explain this in more detail.
for tethered shooting, are you saying that there is some sort of script that automatically applies the identified gain file to the subsequent image files and exports the corrected file to a watched folder in Leaf Capture 11? So while you are shooting and refining lighting you can see the last shot with the gain file applied automatically? Is this some sort of a work around for the upcoming tethered feature that you mentioned?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138977\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No nothing that clever...
I set 3 Shots folders:
1. Captured images
2. Diffused files
3. Corrected files
LC11 is set to view #3 while I shoot into #1 and #2 and get the Custom Gain Adjuster to correct #1 using the files from #2.
If further fine tuning of the falloff is required I can always go back and re-adjust.
Hope this clarifies
Yair
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I said I'd post a screen grab of work in progress for David Anderson who started this thread, but under another sub-forum.. here you are ... just some dull shots this morning .. but you can see how the 35mm has a particular cast that has been removed from the adjusted file... I parcel everything out to different folders as per Yair but I throw everything back together so I can judge the success of the proccess.... no fall off correction applied as I want to keep the sky as dark as I can.... (Still using LC 10 on the desktops but 11 is working great on the laptop.... just haven't had the time to load up)
Ros
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Hello,
This maybe a very silly question, but what do Leaf and Sinar owners do when shooting an exterior dusk photo and your exposure is in the range of 20 seconds?
If I’m not mistaken, both Leaf and Sinar can go as long as 30 seconds only. Since you cannot change your F stop and your back does not allow you to increase you time exposure beyond 30 seconds, I guess the only way to do it is to carry a portable strobe with you. Is this correct? If so, is it not important that your gain photo is exposed for a fraction of a second only? What I’m trying to find out is if the lack of noise in the gain file compared to the actual shot exposed at 20 seconds makes any difference.
Now for Phase users; is your 80 second exposure the same in terms of noise as the 20 second exposure? Do you simply increase your time exposure and use this file to correct the cast?
I’m in the process of selecting a back and it has been very frustrating so far. Thanks for your help.
Mariusz
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I said I'd post a screen grab of work in progress for David Anderson who started this thread, but under another sub-forum.. here you are ...
Ros
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Thanks Ros, that's very helpful indeed! Are you shooting tethered with V10 and using the custom gain adjuster as you go? (Maybe you already said so - I apologize)
Mariusz - Wow, those certainly are long exposures! I had always heard that the Sinar 54H was the best back on the market for long exposures, but I don't care for their software at all. I own a Leaf Aptus, but I've never had it up past two seconds. I always assumed that the noise would be too much... Maybe someone will chime in on that... I can't speak to Phase results.
Dave
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but what do Leaf and Sinar owners do when shooting an exterior dusk photo and your exposure is in the range of 20 seconds?
Mariusz
I'll preface my response by saying that I don't own a DB but I regularly use the current
products from Leaf,Hasselblad,and Phase on a regular basis.
I did a recent shoot that had pretty well the parameters you outlined above.
I was shooting with an Aptus22 well after sunset and my exposure time was in the vicinity
of 20 seconds. In this situation,knowing that i would not be able to expose the neccessary
Gain adjustment file I used an alternate gain file that i had exposed a little bit earlier in the
evening shooting the same scene with the same exposure/movement details as I knew i
would be requiring a little later.
Worked to my complete satisfaction except that there was some dust differences on the
sensor between the two exposures which the gain file tried to remove from the image
where there was none resulting in a couple of funky little spots that took a few seconds in
post to take care of.
Hope this helps a bit.
Mark
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Dave - thanks for the info. I think you are correct, the 54H might be a great back, but unfortunately it does not have a screen and therefore it would not work for me.
Mark – thanks. I’m glad to hear that you can use a shot taken much earlier. It would seem that color temperature of the Gain file does not have to match the color temp of the shot that needs to be corrected. However, not always do you have a luxury of doing what you were able to do, so I guess I would love to hear from someone if a small portable strobe is the only way to go (in the field) and if the lack of noise in the gain file created this way may cause problems?
Mark, do you remember how long your gain exposure was? Was it a short or was it a few seconds? You may have the answer to my noise question.
Thanks again.
Mariusz
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Mariusz,
The gain file can be captured anywhere, anytime with a strobe, with the sun or whatever. It needs to be exposed properly and must be taken with the same aperture and movement as the actual shot.
The movement parameters I sometimes write into the metadata on the back for reference.
Yair
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Thanks Yair.
Mariusz
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Mariusz
In the example I referenced I had done a series of gain files (15-20 minutes earlier than
final capture) that ranged anywhere from 5 to 20 seconds.
I randomly selected one and applied it to my selected final file and,for all intents and
purposes,arrived at a 'perfect' final corrected.
I'm far from knowledgeable enough to determine whether or not the different time exposure
or white balance contributed any measureable negative issues but I do know that the
'gained' file was completely satisfactory for my needs.
As a landscape photog I have also done a number of 5-10 second exposures of waterfalls,etc
using a Hassedlblad ArcBody whose optics definitely require gain correction and could determine
no adverse effects applying 20-30 second gain correction files to my originals.
Yair could more definitively state whether such differences could introduce noise issues but
in my experience,I have seen none.
Mark
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Mark - thanks a lot, this helps quite a bit.
Mariusz
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Dave hi,
V8 allows you to create a custom gain file that can be loaded into the back when tethered to either V8 or LC11. It sits under Camera>Calibration>Gain. You can store a library of these files and load them as required, so as you shoot the images come up corrected for casts and falloff.
A simplified version of this process is going to be implemented into LC11 in the near future.
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=138843\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Is Leaf going to continue to support V8?
I will confess that I do not use the full capability of what is possible in this software much less understand all the customized/advanced possibilities. The one thing that I believe is unique is the modular GUI of all the tool pallettes and controls when shooting in a tethered mode. The ability to
control and see all tool pallettes simultaneously without having to navigate through pull down tabs is efficient and comfortable when shooting tethered. Historically software manufacturers
typically abandon or stop supporting previous versions............some times new is not better it is just different. Don't get me wrong, I use V11 and it is an improvement from V10 especially for post production.
The other feature is this 8 shot gain file. I was under the impression this was originally designed to address optical imperfections of the glass filter in front of the CCD for studio product shooters.
In concept, for tethered shooting this works great for removing digital optical anamolies(color casts, vignetting,dust,centerfolds)
In practice, as pixjohn has mentioned, the amount of time it takes to gather the data from 8 shots
is particularly uncomfortable when a client or art director is present.
Yair, can you elaborate why Leaf doesn't make a "simplified version" for V8..............a oneshot gain file that can be uploaded to the back? Particularly since you have mentioned that the custom gain file created in V8 can be used in V11.
thanks
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Prakash, you forgot to mention the one problem with magenta highlights we both have using the V8 gain file and 24xl lens. I still have the problem and still do not have a fix. Here I am supporting this great program with no fix for my own use. Please Leaf help us out.
Gain File Problem (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=16277&hl=)
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It takes a few step but I just shoot the Gain in V8 and upload the file to the back. I then shoot my images in V10. I am going to try V11.2 since it now works with V8. I just use a simple $35 mini strobe screwed into a socket pointed directly at the lens approximately 15 inchs away.
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Can you have both versions open at the same time and go back/forth? I used to crash when I tried having V8 and LC10 open at the same time...
Secondly, do you ever get into stitching images together? If so, do you create a custom gain for each lens movement for the shot (ie. +5 H shift right, and -5 H shift left) or just one custom gain for the lens set at 0 movements? I might have asked this earlier, but can't find it.
Last of all, do you have any experience with using the "merge to HDR" functionality in Photoshop, where you might take a series of 6 bracketed exposures into photoshop in an effort to retain your highlight and shadow detail? If so, it seems like shooting V8 gains to the back, and bracketed shots in LC11.2 would be the *only* way you could work most efficiently.
Dave
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I have both versions open at the same when I am shooting. However you can not have both softwares open and connect the cord, the computer will crash.
Can you have both versions open at the same time and go back/forth? I used to crash when I tried having V8 and LC10 open at the same time...
Secondly, do you ever get into stitching images together? If so, do you create a custom gain for each lens movement for the shot (ie. +5 H shift right, and -5 H shift left) or just one custom gain for the lens set at 0 movements? I might have asked this earlier, but can't find it.
Last of all, do you have any experience with using the "merge to HDR" functionality in Photoshop, where you might take a series of 6 bracketed exposures into photoshop in an effort to retain your highlight and shadow detail? If so, it seems like shooting V8 gains to the back, and bracketed shots in LC11.2 would be the *only* way you could work most efficiently.
Dave
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I have both versions open at the same when I am shooting. However you can not have both softwares open and connect the cord, the computer will crash.
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I'm not sure I follow you. Don't you shoot tethered? Your statements seem to contradict. Sorry if I'm kind of dumb... Maybe you're saying that you open V8, connect, and then open LC10? I guess that would make sense. Then you disconnect, shut down V8, connect to LC10, and open V8 back up to do your final shots?
Dave