Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: PeterDendrinos on August 21, 2007, 08:26:10 am
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I apologize up front, i am sure this has been covered, but i cant get the search function to work on this site.
I am printing with an Epson 7800 with their standard ink set. I am experiencing out gassing in my framed prints. I have tried the paper over the print technique to speed absorption of the moisture, but still get the problem. I simply cant wait weeks for ambient drying, there isn't time in my work flow.
The question is, has a better, faster way been found to dry the print so it can be framed and not gas out? Perhaps a fan?
Thanks for the input.
Pete
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Peter
how about good old Ansel's method of using a microwave oven to speed-dry his prints? Here in my damp Cornish cottage I suppose I might use our airing-cupboard to speed things up. Having said that, so far I have had no problem with the K3 inkset outgassing, but I always leave my prints up on a pinboard for at laest a week before they get put to bed.
Best regards
John
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The question is, has a better, faster way been found to dry the print so it can be framed and not gas out? Perhaps a fan?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=134487\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Outgassing is caused by the slow evaporation of glycols and glycerins from the ink carrier. Ever seen how long it takes for an antifreeze spill to evaporate? Ethylene glycol is one of the components of both antifreeze and most pigment inks.
Only two things get them to leave the paper faster. Heat and air movement. I use a handheld hair dryer, and have gone from printing to framed and on the wall in less than an hour. Hung in the sun, no evidence of outgassing. Before using the hairdryer I had outgassing even if the print "aired out" for a week or more.
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Some papers produce much worse outgassing problems than others. I've done a moderate amount of experimentation with various papers (several years ago) iwth my 2200 and found that Epson glossy & semi-gloss papers were about the worst for outgassing. I typically wait an hour for the ink to dry, then put plain paper on it for about a week, then frame it, but there's still significant outgassing (despite Epson's claim that this prevents it, it doesn't - they're in a state of denial). Many third-party papers have much less severe outgassing than Epson's, however. I ended up choosing Ilford Galerie Smooth Gloss, which still has a little bit of outgassing, but not enough to be a problem (and less than other papers I tested), and much less than Epson's. (They also make a Smooth Pearl paper which is probably similar outgassing-wise.)
Lisa
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Since I'm fairly new to the digital realm and print with a 7800, I would suspect that since I drymount my work, the heat from that would " dry" the print to stop the outgassing to some degree.
Is this a logical deduction since one person posted using a hair dryer?
Michael
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Bruce, exactly how and for how long do you hit the prints with the hair dryer?
Nill
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www.toulme.net (http://www.toulme.net)
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There are some info inthe following links:
http://www.epson.com/cmc_upload/0/000/019/...ming%20Tips.pdf (http://www.epson.com/cmc_upload/0/000/019/809/Framing%20Tips.pdf)
http://www.pictureline.com/newsletter/2004...gasstorage.html (http://www.pictureline.com/newsletter/2004/august/gasstorage.html)
Avalan
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Outgassing is caused by the slow evaporation of glycols and glycerins from the ink carrier. Ever seen how long it takes for an antifreeze spill to evaporate? Ethylene glycol is one of the components of both antifreeze and most pigment inks.
Only two things get them to leave the paper faster. Heat and air movement. I use a handheld hair dryer, and have gone from printing to framed and on the wall in less than an hour. Hung in the sun, no evidence of outgassing. Before using the hairdryer I had outgassing even if the print "aired out" for a week or more.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=134513\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
A hair dryer? the prints i am having problems with are typically 24x32 or so. Do you think i could employ your technique on that large of a print? I am about to purchase a 9800, i will need to "process" those the same way. Perhaps 2 hair dryers!
Can you please elaborate on the specific technique a bit. How long do you dry them, how do you know you have gotten it all.
Pete
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There are some info inthe following links:
http://www.epson.com/cmc_upload/0/000/019/...ming%20Tips.pdf (http://www.epson.com/cmc_upload/0/000/019/...ming%20Tips.pdf)
http://www.pictureline.com/newsletter/2004...gasstorage.html (http://www.pictureline.com/newsletter/2004...gasstorage.html)
Sorry to rain on your parade, but the Epson "cure" for the problem (putting plain paper on it for 24 hours) doesn't do it. It may help a bit, but it doesn't completely solve it by a long shot. (Epson has a history of offering "solutions" to their printers' problems that don't work - just look back at the cyan fading issue with their old dye printers some years back.) I've left a print for a full month with several rounds of fresh plain paper to cover it, and it still perceptibly fogged up the glass in a clip frame within a week or two. That's what made me give up on Epson papers and go to third-party papers.
Of course, I probably notice it more than most people because I often use clip frames, which will make outgassing much more obvious than frames with a separation between the print and the glass, since you can see the sharp dividing line in the "fog" between the print's light areas and dark areas.
I haven't tried a hair dryer or other accelerated-heating process. Perhaps I'll give it a try sometime...
Lisa
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I have used the hair dryer too but only on quicky snapshot prints. I had some prints framed at an art show. After the show I had a print laying face up in the sun for about 15 minutes as I boxed them up. The glass got condensate on it where the summer sun was hitting it. When I took the framed print out of the box an hour later the condensate was gone. This was water, not glycol from the ink. If it had been glycol it would not have evaporated so fast leaving the glass clear with no trace. I wonder how many of these outgassing experiences are just moisture condensing on the glass due to direct sunlight instead of glycol.
Charlie
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I have used the hair dryer too but only on quicky snapshot prints. I had some prints framed at an art show. After the show I had a print laying face up in the sun for about 15 minutes as I boxed them up. The glass got condensate on it where the summer sun was hitting it. When I took the framed print out of the box an hour later the condensate was gone. This was water, not glycol from the ink. If it had been glycol it would not have evaporated so fast leaving the glass clear with no trace. I wonder how many of these outgassing experiences are just moisture condensing on the glass due to direct sunlight instead of glycol.
Charlie
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I have seen both happen in a print that has been exposed to the sun several times. I do lots of art shows. It never fails that the sun beats down on one of these large prints. But it's the evaporating glycol that causes me the most trouble.
Perhaps a drying cabinet is in order. Does Jobo still make and sell their film drying products?
P
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Is there the same trouble with outgassing and the Vivera inks (HP Z )?
With Epson inks, color change visually a bit after the printing and not with the HP inks. I don't know if it's enough to escape to the outgassing malediction
Has someone noticed outgassing with Z2100 or Z2300 ? I don't put glass on my print, so my experiment is not relevant.
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thierry, which Epson inks are referring to? The K3 ones, I assume? My experience is that short-term drift ends after about 1/2 hour, and even then the drift is relatively minor.
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But it's the evaporating glycol that causes me the most trouble.
P
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=134748\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
So when you say glycol causes you the most trouble are you saying that the condensate on the glass does not go away or leaves a trace after it evaporates?
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thierry, which Epson inks are referring to? The K3 ones, I assume? My experience is that short-term drift ends after about 1/2 hour, and even then the drift is relatively minor.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=134773\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
With my Epson 4000 I waited 24 hours before profiling the target even if 12 hours would have been probably enough. The drift was rather obvious, specially on black and white.
The Z3100 print and profile the target in the same process. A bit suspicious at the begining, I made some test reprofiling the same targets 24 hours later. The profiles were identical.
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So when you say glycol causes you the most trouble are you saying that the condensate on the glass does not go away or leaves a trace after it evaporates?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=134781\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ya i am saying that the glycol fogs the glass in proportion to the density of ink on the print. and it stays there until i break the frame apart and clean the glass.
I have occasionally seen water vapor "condensate" form on the glass when the sun hits it, but that typically goes away on it's own.
P
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This is from "Mastering digital printing -second edition" by Harald Johnson / page 280 :
"High"-volume printmakers solve the obvious space problem associated with drying by using commercial print-dtying racks , sometimes in combination with forced-air heating system. These can be expensive new , but they can sometimes be picked up used from screenprinters."
Also there is a picture of commercial drying-racks included in page 280.
I found the following discussion in another forum about using hair driers:
http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00IXkB&tag= (http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00IXkB&tag=)
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With my Epson 4000 I waited 24 hours before profiling the target even if 12 hours would have been probably enough. The drift was rather obvious, specially on black and white.
The Z3100 print and profile the target in the same process. A bit suspicious at the begining, I made some test reprofiling the same targets 24 hours later. The profiles were identical.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=134785\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Gotcha. The drift on the newer K3 inks has been reduced ... wouldn't say it's immediately settled, though.
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Bruce, exactly how and for how long do you hit the prints with the hair dryer?
Nill
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www.toulme.net (http://www.toulme.net)
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Low heat, high fan. Hold the hair dryer in one hand, put the other hand behind the print. Work the hair dryer back and forth, slowly, over the print where it's held by your hand. You'll feel the print go through a couple of stages. First it will heat up and feel sort of damp. Then it will almost flash to feeling dry.
Increment across the print like this. A 19x13 inch print takes me a minute or so. Just long enough to get boring
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Low heat, high fan. Hold the hair dryer in one hand, put the other hand behind the print. Work the hair dryer back and forth, slowly, over the print where it's held by your hand. You'll feel the print go through a couple of stages. First it will heat up and feel sort of damp. Then it will almost flash to feeling dry.
Just to make sure we're on the same wavelength: The hair dryer doesn't just cause the water in the ink to evaporate faster, thus drying the ink in a minute instead of an hour, but also takes care of the slowly-evaporating glycol (permanent glass-fogging) problem???
Lisa
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Just to make sure we're on the same wavelength: The hair dryer doesn't just cause the water in the ink to evaporate faster, thus drying the ink in a minute instead of an hour, but also takes care of the slowly-evaporating glycol (permanent glass-fogging) problem???
Lisa
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Yes. You can smell the glycols and glycerins coming off the print. The water dries off a print surprisingly quickly (especially a fiber [non-RC type] print), but the glycols have a very low partial pressure and take forever to evaporate unless you help.
But you don't need to believe me. It's extraordinarily easy to try it for yourself. Print something you are ready to frame, dry it with a hair dryer, frame it right away, and immediately hang it in the sun. See what happens.
There are a couple of good "side effects" with most pigment inks. With some you can literally watch Dmax increase (especially true of the Cone PiezoTones, Jon Cone used to say it would increase Dmax by a stop or more). A lesser effect is some gamut increase from color inksets. I can just barely see this with the older UltraChromes but I'm told it's measurable.
No one will argue that it's not a PITA to do this. So is it worth it to you? Clearly, YMMV.
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Thanks for clarifying, Bruce. I'll definitely give the hair dryer a try next time I'm printing (maybe one with and one without for comparison) and see how it goes. Do you still do the "curing" with plain paper afterwards, or can you skip that step?
Lisa
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But you don't need to believe me. It's extraordinarily easy to try it for yourself. Print something you are ready to frame, dry it with a hair dryer, frame it right away, and immediately hang it in the sun. See what happens.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=134908\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Curious, what happens? Hopefully, nothing!
Jim
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Maybe I am just being paranoid, but off-gassing makes me nervous. It is the primary reason why I stick with matte finish papers because it is the only way I know of that is guaranteed not to have it. I had some prints off-gas that I submitted to a gallery, and it has made me paranoid ever since.
I haven't read to date a sure fire method to prevent it. Am I being overly paranoid?
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Are matte papers utterly immune from it?
Nill
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www.toulme.net (http://www.toulme.net)
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Maybe I am just being paranoid, but off-gassing makes me nervous. It is the primary reason why I stick with matte finish papers because it is the only way I know of that is guaranteed not to have it. I had some prints off-gas that I submitted to a gallery, and it has made me paranoid ever since.
I haven't read to date a sure fire method to prevent it. Am I being overly paranoid?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=135539\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Outgassing isn't a paper issue. It's an ink issue. Or more specifically, an ink carrier issue. The glycols and glycerins are in the ink carrier of pigment inks to control clogging and pigment settling, among other things.
Outgassing is seen primarily with glossy papers because most glossy papers are RC "barrier" papers. In RC papers the ink carrier components have to leave the paper through the print surface because the route out the back is blocked. But that doesn't mean that non-RC papers or matte papers don't outgas, because they do.
And if you've been reading this thread you have read a "sure fire method to prevent it." But like most things, to find out if any particular processing method is right for you, you have to do your own testing.
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I made two identical prints the day before yesterday, used a hair dryer on one (about 30 seconds for a 6"x9" print, which slightly curled the paper), then put them under plain paper for a day, then framed them in the clip frame. I will take it apart in two weeks and compare the two to see the difference, and report back.
Regarding matte papers, I've tested a number of papers for outgassing, and have seen no evidence of outgassing from any matte papers (by looking for fogging on glass in direct contact with the print). I'm not saying that no outgassing is going on, just that there appears to be no adverse effect from it. I have yet to find any glossy or semi-gloss papers that had none at all (this is before trying the hair dryer solution), but some have a pretty negligible amount, others a great deal.
Lisa
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I made two identical prints the day before yesterday, used a hair dryer on one (about 30 seconds for a 6"x9" print, which slightly curled the paper), then put them under plain paper for a day, then framed them in the clip frame. I will take it apart in two weeks and compare the two to see the difference, and report back.
OK, it's been two weeks. I took the frame apart, and looked for outgassing fog on the glass. *Both* sides of the glass (i.e. under both prints) looked exactly the same, with the same small amount of fog. At least with this ink/paper set (Epson 3800 with Ilford Galerie Smooth Gloss), using a hair dryer made no difference.
Lisa
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Thank you for sharing the results of your test Lisa. This is exactly why I mentioned 'being paranoid' about this. Maybe Bruce would provide more details in what exact inks and paper combination that his hair dryer method seems 'a sure fire method.'