Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: RicAgu on July 28, 2007, 08:21:57 pm
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Hello All,
I have done a shoot recently with the P45 and the centerfold has appeared on all the shots. Very visible on the shots with the black background and in the blue sky of other shots. Shot on an H1 with the 50-110 so there was no movements.
I remember reading hear that Phase had a gain adjustment that had to be done. I hope this is somehting that is added to the RAW in Post and not some calibration needed pre shoot.
Thanks in Advance
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xx
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To the best of my knowledge, there is no centerfold issue on the P45. I certainly don't have it on mine, whether I'm processing my images in C1, Lightroom or ACR (I use all three, but by far I prefer Lightroom). It has been associated with the Dalsa sensors, I believe, but not with the Kodak sensors, which all Phase One backs use.
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I'll upload the image when I get back to the studio. There is a clear line right down the middle of the sensor. Not as noticible as the A75, but clearly there. May be able to load it this evening if tomorrow.
Thanks for the replies
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It has been associated with the Dalsa sensors, I believe, but not with the Kodak sensors, which all Phase One backs use.
Not completely true. I've had it appear on a few series of files using a Hasselblad H1 and CF39 which uses a Kodak sensor and on the Leica M8 which also uses a Kodak sensor.
These facts certainly don't help Ric out in any way other than to point out the possibility that
Kodak chips can exhibit the centerfold issue.
Mark
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attached please find the files of close up screen grabs of the shots. They show up at 50% and at 100% but do not show up at 66.67%. Very strange.
I have never seen this on my P25 back ever using C1. Wierd artifacts have shown up using LR & RD with my P25, but this 45 is giving me issues and I am not happy with it.
I have posted on Phase forum and set up a support case, but of course it is the weekend.
Anyway, please do let me know if anyone has seen these type of lines on Phase One 30MP and up backs?
Thanks,
R
[attachment=2903:attachment]
[attachment=2904:attachment]
[attachment=2905:attachment]
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Hello all,
I just did my second shoot with my P30 loaner (waiting for my Plus to arrive), and I see a similar line artifact in every shot from the shoot. The line goes all the way across the image, about 1/8 of the way down from the top of each vertical image. I shot some at ISO 100, then bumped it up to 400 as the light went down...all have the same line. It is a bit more pronounced in the ones shot at 400.
I'm going to do some tests tomorrow. In my first shoot with the P30, and the tests I did before it, the files were perfect. I'm hoping it just had a bad day.
Please see attached screen grabs.
cheers,
Gregory Allen
P.S. These were processed in C1.
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Anyway, please do let me know if anyone has seen these type of lines on Phase One 30MP and up backs?
Thanks,
R
Ric:
I had the centerfold (CF) shown on very few of my shots with P45/H2/55-110 setup, but only if I process the images with LR. The same images with C1 conversion do produce the centerfold. The centerfold is not from physical stitching of sensors but of maskings.
Phase One will not discuss the CF issues unless you can produce them with C1 conversion, since they are selling DB and C1 as a total solution. So far, I cannot reproduce the CF with C1 conversion.
I am assuming that your images were processed with LR. Try them with C1 and see if the CF still exist.
LCC correction and CF possibility are the reasons why I am still using C1 instead of LR.
Jae Moon
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Gregory, you have a defective sensor - this is NOT a "centerfold" issue. Contact Phase One or your dealer.
Edmund
Hello all,
I just did my second shoot with my P30 loaner (waiting for my Plus to arrive), and I see a similar line artifact in every shot from the shoot. The line goes all the way across the image, about 1/8 of the way down from the top of each vertical image. I shot some at ISO 100, then bumped it up to 400 as the light went down...all have the same line. It is a bit more pronounced in the ones shot at 400.
I'm going to do some tests tomorrow. In my first shoot with the P30, and the tests I did before it, the files were perfect. I'm hoping it just had a bad day.
Please see attached screen grabs.
cheers,
Gregory Allen
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=130546\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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these all look like corruption lines from back in the drum scan days...
one block of data would be corrupt and would make a line thru the image
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I only use C1 Pro, I have not been able to get into LR yet.
They don't show up in the file when viewed in C1. But when I process them out and open them in Photoshop it is clearly there. But it is not visible at 66.67%. Wierd.
I'll call Phase tomorrow and see what the deal is.
Anyway, please do let me know if anyone has seen these type of lines on Phase One 30MP and up backs?
Thanks,
R
Ric:
I had the centerfold (CF) shown on very few of my shots with P45/H2/55-110 setup, but only if I process the images with LR. The same images with C1 conversion do produce the centerfold. The centerfold is not from physical stitching of sensors but of maskings.
Phase One will not discuss the CF issues unless you can produce them with C1 conversion, since they are selling DB and C1 as a total solution. So far, I cannot reproduce the CF with C1 conversion.
I am assuming that your images were processed with LR. Try them with C1 and see if the CF still exist.
LCC correction and CF possibility are the reasons why I am still using C1 instead of LR.
Jae Moon
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Ric
After getting a chance to look at the three samples you posted I tend to think the
flaw you are getting is more similar to an issue some older Imacon backs experienced
where one pixel in a row would 'die' and as a result cause the entire line to fail.
The centerfold issues I have experienced manifested themselves by having the image
'split' in two where one entire half of the frame was a different color,or density,than the
other half,sometimes subtle,sometimes fairly obvious.
Mark
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I really feel I need to contribute here.
The following is technical information from someone that sells Phase One equipment and has been doing this for a long time..it is not an opinion it is not bashing anything...
There is no such thing as "centerfold issues" with any Phase One back...period..never have been either.
The lines that appear in Lightroom but not C1 should tell you something..there's nothing wrong with your back. Lightroom is a nice program, I use it myself for some things. There is one thing that you may or may not know...Adobe does not use the black calibration files that your Phase One back has built into it..that's why its so much faster to process. That's also part of the reason why it might not give you everything your digital back is capable of or sometimes even give you corrupted files.
The following is now personal rant and an offer to help...
I enjoy banter and discussion as much as the next guy, but please..don't speculate unless you know what the problem is. I have contributed to this forum a few times and it seems its always to rant or correct a blatant error, so I'll invite anyone here to ask any questions they wish to on Phase One backs or C1 software and I'll do my best to answer them and not interject any bias.
There are a lot of very technically adept readers on this forum, but it never ceases to amaze me how otherwise smart folk can be so naive sometimes and just take as gospel anything they read. Ask away, I'll answer and you can decide for yourself if I'm to be believed or trusted.
End of rant
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I only use C1 Pro, I have not been able to get into LR yet.
They don't show up in the file when viewed in C1. But when I process them out and open them in Photoshop it is clearly there. But it is not visible at 66.67%. Wierd.
I'll call Phase tomorrow and see what the deal is.
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Ric:
I tend to agree with the other that your line is not what I called CF. In my cases, the CF were not single lines but looked as if the joining of two slightly different exposures next to each other. It showed regardless of image magnification. Again, in LR but not in C1Pro.
Jae M
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Ric and Greg,
Joe is correct, there never has been a centerfold issue with Phase One backs. What you are both experiencing is a stuck or dead pixel. All backs no matter what brand have these and are calibrated out at the factory prior to delivery. There are two things you can try. First is to dump the camera calibration file (on a mac, its located in Users-User name-Library-Caches-Phase One-Camera calibration, trash everything that is in there. Next time you tether the camera or download an image the back will download the camera calibration file. That sometimes solves the problem. If it doesn't the back needs to go back to Phase One for recalibration.
The reason you don't see the line at 66% in Photoshop has to do with how PS does the interpolation from the full file. You should NEVER view your images in PS at 33% or 66%, only 25, 50 or 100%.
As Joe said, if the file is fine in C1 and not Lightroom, then there is an issue with Lightroom. The Lightroom/Camera Raw engine does not make use of the black calibration files.
Cheers,
Ron
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Hello All,
I have done a shoot recently with the P45 and the centerfold has appeared on all the shots. Very visible on the shots with the black background and in the blue sky of other shots. Shot on an H1 with the 50-110 so there was no movements.
Ric,
I got this appearance of centerfold on one of my P backs once, but only when trying to use Lightroom. The issue was in the blue channel. I then went back and processed the same file in CaptureOne and it was fine. The file was ASA 400, and it was as if a horizontal frame had been divided down the middle into two halves, and the right half of the frame was about two-thirds of a stop hotter than the left half. Very apparent in the blue channel.
At this point in time, it's unclear to me whether the Adobe people are being forced to "reverse engineer" the Phase files, in order to get them to work in LightRoom, or whether Phase is cooperating somehow. I have asked Phase this question, but with so many things Phase, there is no response and nothing but silence. Since they are working on v4 of C1, this I suppose does not surprise me.
In short, for the time being, I only process important P30, P21 files in CaptureOne. I don't need any surprises.
This is what you get when the company that you buy backs from, also makes competing software. And made worse when you have a company like PhaseOne which has less than ideal communication with their customers. My advice: keep it simple and process in CaptureOne. At least for now.
Also, my advice is to view these questionable issues ONLY at 100% magnification inside of Photoshop; that's where the true information is.
Also, Paul Schefz also has mentioned here about seeing a single-pixel-wide from his P30, when processed in Lightroom.
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The lines that appear in Lightroom but not C1 should tell you something..
I don't know where this came from. Ric never said he sees the line only in Lightroom. In fact, he says he hasn't even tried opening the file in Lightroom. He said he only sees the line after he exports the image from C1. He further said he doesn't see it when he's viewing it in C1. This tells me the problem is most likely in the C1 exporter.
I use Lightroom and C1, and honestly, Lightroom is now the better of the two. I much prefer the rendering of my P45 files from Lightroom. I certainly don't see any lines in Lightroom on my P45 files, or any misbalance between one side or the other.
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attached please find the files of close up screen grabs of the shots. They show up at 50% and at 100% but do not show up at 66.67%. Very strange.
Ric, having finally looked at your samples, I'm inclined to believe you either have a bad row (or column) of pixels, or there's an issue with the C1 exporter. I lean more toward the C1 exporter explanation, since I would think you would see the line in C1 when you view it at 100%. As for the line not showing up at 67% in PS, I'm guessing that's just an aliasing issue, with PS resampling the image in such a way that the line disappears.
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I have never seen this on my P25 back ever using C1. Wierd artifacts have shown up using LR & RD with my P25, but this 45 is giving me issues and I am not happy with it.
I may be misunderstanding. but it appears the gentleman is seeing unusual results in some cases with LIghtroom.
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I may be misunderstanding. but it appears the gentleman is seeing unusual results in some cases with LIghtroom.
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My comment was regarding the line he's seeing on his P45 shots, which Ric stated he had not seen in C1, but had seen on images exported from C1 and viewed in PS. He clearly stated he had not looked at this file in Lightroom. He did state, as you point out, that he's had past issues on P25 files viewed in LR (he didn't indicate if they were lines or other artifacts), but remember that LR has only recently officially supported Phase One files. Earlier support was unofficial, and I could certainly believe there were issues with that earlier support. All I can say is I don't have any such lines when viewing my P45 files in LR.
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..Adobe does not use the black calibration files that your Phase One back has built into it..that's why its so much faster to process. That's also part of the reason why it might not give you everything your digital back is capable of or sometimes even give you corrupted files.
Joe
Since,as you state,Adobe does not use (cannot access?) the black calibration files that
Phase One backs have built in does this not suggest that there are,possibly, issues such as
dead pixels and centerfold present just as there are in other products and that Phase is doing
an excellent job at correcting them?
Mark
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Ron is correct. If you dump the cache it will force the camera to recalibrate the next time it is
connected to that computer. Your first shot after your dump the cache may have a odd color cast, but it isn't a big deal after you white balance.
It's always a good idea to have a good working relationship with your dealer. They can usually help you with issues that may pop up. If there are any Phase One users that run into issues at off hours or during the weekend, please give us a call or e-mail.
Tim Palmer - [email protected] (770)597-1098
Chris Lawery - [email protected] (404)234-5195
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
Capture Integration
www.captureintegration.com
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The line in question is more than likely a corrupted camera calibration. Either on the hard drive or in the digital back itself. As my colleague Ron Steinberg noted, the first thing to try is clearing the camera calibration cache. Failing that contact your dealer. If your P45 is covered with an uptime warranty you will get a loaner back to use for the duration of the repair or recalibration. If you did not buy your P45 from a dealer but are still covered under warranty, get to know your nearest dealer and I'm sure they'll give you a hand in getting this resolved.
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Joe
Since,as you state,Adobe does not use (cannot access?) the black calibration files that
Phase One backs have built in does this not suggest that there are,possibly, issues such as
dead pixels and centerfold present just as there are in other products and that Phase is doing
an excellent job at correcting them?
Mark
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Mark,
Dead pixels are a fact of life in every sensor ever made. The calibration files are designed to take the dead pixels into account and give you a good image. Anyone that thinks the sensor in their back has no dead pixels whatsoever is sadly mistaken. As far as the centrtefold thing....you can't have a centrefold issue if you have no centrefold...period. If you're seeing anything that resembles it I can assure you its not the same thing. Sorry.
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I feel like there are about three different discussions going on at once here, with each person attacking the problem based on what he thinks is the issue.
All I can add, from one user's perspective, is that I saw a centerfold effect, whether or not it's the classic centerfold that plagued Leaf or not, in my P21 (non-plus), using Lightroom 1.0, at ASA 400 setting. It scared me enough to not use Lightroom again, since the problem did not occur using CaptureOne on the exact same file.
I feel like the original question was not stated clearly enough to solve it -- whether his issue showed up in CaptureOne or in Lightroom.
Again, my advice during this shakeout period, where it's unclear how much solid information that Adobe has from Phase about the makeup of the RAW file, is to use CaptureOne for now. If Lightroom works for you, you are a lucky man; you are living right. But my own personal view is that Phase is not talking to Adobe at all, due to competing software, and whatever Adobe gets out of the Phase file is pure accident, and is due to Adobe's skills. Personally, I will rely on CaptureOne for now, feeling as though I'm getting 100% of the file's information.
This is one photographer's subjective opinion only.
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The problem Mark describes sounds like the classical Centrefold.
This does not have to be created by the sensor, but could be created in a different processing stage most likely if the sensor has more than one readout (the Kodaks have two, but I do not know whether phase uses them). But it could be the sensor as well.
That the problem shows in LR but not in C1, hints strongly to the fact that Phase is aware of the problem and has a software solution for it.
This is nothing unusual, in many products are "problems" that are corrected invisibly to the user, leaving him with the beleif to have a flawless product.
One of the better known is defect blocks in hard-disk. Or music CDs, which use error correction to ensure that the music sound like coming from a flawless CD even if it isn't.
The line in Rick's images doesn't look like a Centrefold (read two halfs of different brightness).
On the first look it does look more like a row of blemishes.
On the second look it does not look like blemishes:
I only tested the second image. On this I can make the line vanish by using curves. Blemishes are usually not to be corrected by using curves on all three channels. So it could be the result of correcting a centrefold that went wrong.
Or something completely differnt
But it's hard to tell on a tiff, the raw files would be much more revealing.
No matter what it is, it looks like it has to be solved by the manufacturer/dealer.
Regards
SH
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Thank you all for your advice and comments.
To clarify.
On my P25 files when LR first came out I tried it. It gave me a red line half down the file whether it was Hori or Verti. so I stopped. I had no issue with C1 and it sill works very well. LR is still cropping my Canon file and I don't have the time or inclination to deal with it. If my labbed screwed up my film, I would fire them and never use them again. RD has ben great with my Canon files and when I got the same line that LR was giving me I emailed their support and they asked me to upload a file. Sadly, I have not had time to do this. But will do in the next week.
On the P45 file shoot. I only shoot to card as 90% of my work is on location and I don't have the resources on certain shoots to drag around a tower and I am not a fan of shooting tethered to a laptop. I shoot to card, put on laptop, then transfer to two pocket drives. Once transferred to pocket drives I open the desktop files to view them quickly on a larger screen in between set ups.
That is the last time they are viewed on the lap top. Get back to the hotel and transfer each raw card to a DVD as I only shoot 4Gig cards. Once that is done then the cards are formatted if we have a shoot the next day. If it is only a one day shoot then the cards stay with files till they are back in the studio.
So I now get back to the studio that has a G5 that has never been used to tether, strictly a process, retouch and printing machine. So I guess my next call will be to Chris and get some quick support there. Hopefully dumping the profile and resetting it as someone described here will work.
On the centerfold issue. Sorry for the miscommunication. I had never seen the centerfold on a Phase and this looked just like the ones I had seen on Leaf. A line straight down the middle of the file. So instead of centerfold. I'll call Phase's problem Centerline issue.
I'll let you all know I come up with from Phase and who ever I can get to help.
Thank you again all.
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That the problem shows in LR but not in C1, hints strongly to the fact that Phase is aware of the problem and has a software solution for it.
ummmm...can you not also conclude form this that Adobe is not processing the file correctly? It would not be the first time a software manufacturer has made a mistake.
Ladies & Gentlemen.....if you're going to speculate, conjecture and then make statements, don't you think you should at least concede both possible scenarios?
I'm sorry I got involved in this discussion...I'm going back to lurking, taking care of my clients and I'm leaving the conspiracy theories to all of you.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar...not quite sure who said it but I think it applies very well here.
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well...i have a p30 and it definitely shows what brumbaer calls centerfold....in LR only...does not happen at 100asa, but the higher up i go the worse it gets...at 800 the image is clearly 2 seperate halves....straight down the middle....this happens in LR only (and CS3/Cr4.1 of course) C1 does not show this at all....i have contacted my dealer, phase, adobe and the pope....phase says everything is fine because C1 shows no problems, adobe is "working on it" but to them it is a single case and yes i have sent them files and yes they see the same thing, but i don't hitnk phase support is on the top of their list.....
i have posted about this here, on the LR and CR adobe forums and on the phase forum.....
i am just a stupid consumer of course (with no real technical knowledge) and this is more an annoyance then a real problem....BUT: to me it seems that no matter how OPEN phase is with their files, they always seem to hold something back....one adobe tech i spoke with (who seemed to have some clue) mentioned that they don't have the back-calibration files (or can't access them?) or something like that.....
it is very obvious that adobe has ZERO interest in NOT providing support for phase files, whereas phase has quite a bit of interest in not having adobe support their files....LR handles the P30 files beautifully (at 100) and the combination of the similar conversion quality and the additional features make it an easy winner in my book....LR has cut the time i spend AFTER the shoot down by 50-75%...for me it works.....and i am positive that future improvements will make the margin between C1 and LR even bigger....i just can't see phase catching up with LR....sorry...
i wish phase would just give in and really open their files up....no holding back....and concentrate on making a C1 module for LR supporting tethered shooting (maybe even conversions for those who want to continue working with profiles?) i would gladly pay for such a module....i am looking forward to C1v4, but i doubt it will make me switch back.....
there is no doubt in my mind that the problems i and obviously others are experiencing are phase's fault, their attempt to keep us "tethered" to C1....it won't work....instead of sending me an email every 3 weeks trying to sell me (what used to be) iview, they should open their eyes and face the reality that LR will be the application, just like photoshop is...i am not one for "brand loyality" or whatever (otherwise i would use aperture, if they supported phase, but that is a different story...)...i just want what works....
great..... i managed to turn this into a rant.... as usual....i just think that this is really stupid and unnecessary....wastes everybody's time....so here i am waiting for LR 1.2...adobe will work this out without phase anyway....
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Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar...not quite sure who said it but I think it applies very well here.
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sigmund freud
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well...i have a p30 and it definitely shows what brumbaer calls centerfold....in LR only...does not happen at 100asa, but the higher up i go the worse it gets...
I stated earlier in this thread that I wasn't seeing any such issue with my P45 files processed thru LR. After reading some of the more recent posts, such as Paul's, I should qualify my statement by noting that I have not used my P45 over ISO 100 so far, so it's entirely possible that I would see something at higher ISOs. But ignorance is bliss, and so far at least, I am blissfully ignorant of the "centerline" issue and very happy with LR.
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I stated earlier in this thread that I wasn't seeing any such issue with my P45 files processed thru LR. After reading some of the more recent posts, such as Paul's, I should qualify my statement by noting that I have not used my P45 over ISO 100 so far, so it's entirely possible that I would see something at higher ISOs. But ignorance is bliss, and so far at least, I am blissfully ignorant of the "centerline" issue and very happy with LR.
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Restating my experience, I had few occasion to have centerfold issues with P45/H2/55-110mm @ISO 50 with CF card, only when processed with LR. As I posted earlier, I accept the position of Phase One that their products are sold as a 'total solution', DB and C1 Pro since I cannot reproduce what I saw in C1.
A poor analogy is that I cannot blame the defective performance of my car using regular gas when the manual specify to use Premium only. Again, a poor analogy but you get my drift.
Jae Moon
ps
I posted my finding soon after LR1.0 was released in this forum.
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A quick update on the 'line' issue with my loaner P30 -- it has to go back to Denmark for re-calibration, or 'mapping' or something like that. Anyone seeing these types of artifacts in their images should be reassured that it is is a clear defect, and should contact their dealer.
I'm pressing Phase to send me my P30+ as soon as possible so I don't have any down time. Other than the line, the P30 has been a joy to use, and is a much larger jump in quality from the 1DsII than I had expected.
cheers,
Gregory Allen
www.plasticimage.com
Hello all,
I just did my second shoot with my P30 loaner (waiting for my Plus to arrive), and I see a similar line artifact in every shot from the shoot. The line goes all the way across the image, about 1/8 of the way down from the top of each vertical image. I shot some at ISO 100, then bumped it up to 400 as the light went down...all have the same line. It is a bit more pronounced in the ones shot at 400.
I'm going to do some tests tomorrow. In my first shoot with the P30, and the tests I did before it, the files were perfect. I'm hoping it just had a bad day.
Please see attached screen grabs.
cheers,
Gregory Allen
P.S. These were processed in C1.
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