Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: jimgolden on July 16, 2007, 05:50:04 pm
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Question for reps in 2 parts:
When one trades in a back for an upgrade ( ie H25 to P45+) what happens to that H25?
Also - when you trade a back in against another brand, ie curretn Hassie promotion - say Leaf Aptus 22 to a H3D 22 - what deos Hassie do w/ those Leaf backs?
mostly curious more than anythign else...
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Dear Jim,
to answer your 2 questions, concerning Sinar:
- backs traded in from other brands do usually end up on a "rest-shelf": in other words, nothing happens with it.
- when a Sinarback is traded in and comes back to Sinar, and if it has been decided that this particular back model continues to be part of our sales catalog, then this back is undergoing a complete overhaul and re-furbishing process. All hardware components are replaced by new ones and the back is upgraded to the latest state. We do also replace the casing. The back is then re-sold with a normal warranty period of 3 years.
Hope this answers.
Best regards,
Thierry
Question for reps in 2 parts:
When one trades in a back for an upgrade ( ie H25 to P45+) what happens to that H25?
Also - when you trade a back in against another brand, ie curretn Hassie promotion - say Leaf Aptus 22 to a H3D 22 - what deos Hassie do w/ those Leaf backs?
mostly curious more than anythign else...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128494\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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so there's no high stakes trading w/ the other brands and their "rest shelf"?
thx for the info thierry
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at least not at Sinar.
Welcome,
Thierry
so there's no high stakes trading w/ the other brands and their "rest shelf"?
thx for the info thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128524\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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...All hardware components are replaced by new ones and the back is upgraded to the latest state. We do also replace the casing....
What's left of the original back? And so are these backs then sold as new, or as refirbs?
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as said, the backs are to be considered as new, with a normal 3-year warranty period, but usually, when such a trade-in campain is launched, prices of the traded-in backs are reduced significantly.
Best regards,
Thierry
...All hardware components are replaced by new ones and the back is upgraded to the latest state. We do also replace the casing....
What's left of the original back? And so are these backs then sold as new, or as refirbs?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128535\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Hum, that is interesting. So you are saying that at some times backs that have been traded in but refurbished could actually be sold as brand new? Have the sensors on these backs been replaced? I guess I'm a little confused by all of this since you said that all hardware and the casing would be replaced - what else is there? Or is the sensor considered something else?
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FYI to reps - this wasnt the direction I wanted this thread to go...more curious than anything else...
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I would love to find one of these 'rest shelves'. Seems a shame for old backs to sit around when they could be used
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Me too, It seems ridiculous not to release them on to the secondhand market, which would only serve to maintain the medium format "culture" within photography, and stop the decline, how many more brands have to vanish? The industry as a whole needs to grow to ensure long term survival. Oh sorry, forgot that would put pressure on new back sales, silly me.
Rant over, carry on, move along, nothing to see here.
I would love to find one of these 'rest shelves'. Seems a shame for old backs to sit around when they could be used
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128669\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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TH
One place to sell them without damaging the market (maybe?) would be to your customers who have bought newer.
I would love a V mount back to use with a truewide or digiflex camera and all my lovely nikon glass
Promise I wont sell it on - I would even 'lease it' so it was not allowed to be sold on
Also there is value as a backup
SMM
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well, you should see the state and age of those trade-in backs, uncomplete, with scratches on the IR filter, with casing damaged, with cables missing, etc ....
Thierry
Me too, It seems ridiculous not to release them on to the secondhand market, which would only serve to maintain the medium format "culture" within photography, and stop the decline, how many more brands have to vanish? The industry as a whole needs to grow to ensure long term survival. Oh sorry, forgot that would put pressure on new back sales, silly me.
Rant over, carry on, move along, nothing to see here.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128703\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Dear Sam,
I don't think that is really Sinar's job. See my previous post and the stae of thoes backs returned.
Best regards,
Thierry
TH
One place to sell them without damaging the market (maybe?) would be to your customers who have bought newer.
I would love a V mount back to use with a truewide or digiflex camera and all my lovely nikon glass
Promise I wont sell it on - I would even 'lease it' so it was not allowed to be sold on
Also there is value as a backup
SMM
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128714\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Dear Sam,
I don't think that is really Sinar's job. See my previous post and the stae of thoes backs returned.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128732\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well when there is a trade on offer '$8000 for any digital back' people dig around for any old cr*p
My Proback was sold to someone specifically so they had a back to trade for a P30 - it was on its last legs
But others on a genuine upgrade path seem to move backs after about a year of careful use
my soon to go E22 for example is in fine condition - I would love an offer to buy it in Vmount
S
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Sam,
that's exactly what I meant: some would do anything to buy an "old", worn-out back from somewhere and then get the trade-in price.
That's why I said "you should see the state of those backs traded-in ..."
e-Bay is also a great source for this ....
Well, your e22 will not return to the market!
This back has been replaced by the e54 LV and discontinued: therefore this very attractive "upgrade" for which you get a complete new and different Sinar DB.
Best regards,
Thierry
Well when there is a trade on offer '$8000 for any digital back' people dig around for any old cr*p
My Proback was sold to someone specifically so they had a back to trade for a P30 - it was on its last legs
But others on a genuine upgrade path seem to move backs after about a year of careful use
my soon to go E22 for example is in fine condition - I would love an offer to buy it in Vmount
S
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128785\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Question for reps in 2 parts:
When one trades in a back for an upgrade ( ie H25 to P45+) what happens to that H25?
Also - when you trade a back in against another brand, ie curretn Hassie promotion - say Leaf Aptus 22 to a H3D 22 - what deos Hassie do w/ those Leaf backs?
mostly curious more than anythign else...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128494\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Jim hi,
Current models units of Leaf backs that come back from trade-ins and upgrades are mostly being re-manufactured, meaning the sensor is kept and most other components are being replaced with new ones, so they match the latest spec. They are then sold as remanufactured at a lower price with 1 year warranty.
Older models such as the Valeo 11 and Valeo 6, are being remanufactured and then either kept for service purposes or used for special educational programmes.
Yair
Backs of other makes, if they aren't current, are normally being shelved or destroyed.
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edit.
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very attractive "upgrade" for which you get a complete new [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128792\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
True
Well, your e22 will not return to the market!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128792\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well this is a real shame and amazing piece of technology junked !
Maybe you should consider and upgrade and keep option.
I cannot afford two backs but kind of really need two
for back up (very remote here)
and because I have no wide angle solution because I am locked out of the BLad wide, and the HY6 doesnt have a wide but I need decent synch speed and prioritise that in my choice of system (H1)
So I really need a V or mam mount version to give wide and rise and fall
which is not on offer from blad or Hy6
I know we disagree on the speed and practicality of changing the rear plates - it is possible in a studio or on an arch shoot but not on a yacht etc
SMM
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It really is a shame,and a waste, that properly functioning backs even if one or
two generations old are trashed.
The motivation,in my opinion,has to do with keeping the market for new backs tight.
Too many quality 'retreads' would definitely cut into new sales.
Why not be proactive and try to move more people into the medium format arena by
offering retreads to those who trade in a working pro level 35mm dDSLR?
Then,of course,you run into the problem of what to do with the recovered 35 cameras :>))
MT
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Too many quality 'retreads' would definitely cut into new sales.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128907\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
it is a hard nut to crack
I wont buy a second back
I could do with a second back
My back exists
Sinar dont want my back out in the market
Maybe there is some other way of interacting with these techology companies..
A monthly membership fee - we keep them paid to do R+D and pump out new backs - they keep 'members' in backs
Maybe a dongle - so my second back only works on a machine that the master back is attached to !!!
charity backs for third world photographers .. who knows
S
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Sam,
if you take me with you on a yacht, then I'll show you ....
Thierry
True
Well this is a real shame and amazing piece of technology junked !
Maybe you should consider and upgrade and keep option.
I cannot afford two backs but kind of really need two
for back up (very remote here)
and because I have no wide angle solution because I am locked out of the BLad wide, and the HY6 doesnt have a wide but I need decent synch speed and prioritise that in my choice of system (H1)
So I really need a V or mam mount version to give wide and rise and fall
which is not on offer from blad or Hy6
I know we disagree on the speed and practicality of changing the rear plates - it is possible in a studio or on an arch shoot but not on a yacht etc
SMM
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128906\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Dear Mark,
I did not say that the e22's are trashed. I said they will not return to the market. They are used for servicing, back-up, etc ... by our tech dpt.
We do not force anybody to trade-in their back: we offer the possibility to upgrade it to a back with LV if this is needed, and we do offer this to those eMotion 22 customers at a very attractive price because the upgrade to LV on the e22 itself is not possible.
We have no other motivation in mind with this campain, and are more than happy to see customers using their backs for years and years, like it is the case with the very first generation of SB 22 (4 MPx!), then SB 23 (6 Mpx): there are still hundreds out with customers and working well, and my recommandation is always to keep it, as long as they are satisfied with the quality achieved with those backs.
Why always see "hidden agendas" or dishonest behaviours in all from the side of the manufacturer?
Best regards,
Thierry
It really is a shame,and a waste, that properly functioning backs even if one or
two generations old are trashed.
The motivation,in my opinion,has to do with keeping the market for new backs tight.
Too many quality 'retreads' would definitely cut into new sales.
Why not be proactive and try to move more people into the medium format arena by
offering retreads to those who trade in a working pro level 35mm dDSLR?
Then,of course,you run into the problem of what to do with the recovered 35 cameras :>))
MT
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128907\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry,
As I recall, from discussion some months ago, much--if not most--of Sam's concern over changing adaptor plates in the field comes down to Sinar's using Phillips screws.
These are notorious for their slots' becoming deformed when the screw is tightened and the screwdriver, owing to the tapered walls of the slots, rises out of the slots while pressure is still being applied, and scrapes the slots' edges, rather like a small milling machine that's run amok (cf. Sam's use of the word, "burring"--the formation of sharp bits of metal where the screwdriver has done its damage).
Sinar may wish to investigate a change to Allen (aka Inbus or DIN 911 or ISO 2936) or Torx (aka ISO 10664) screws.
-H.
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Dear Harris,
that is wrong: the eMotions DO NOT use Phillips screws, and have never used such (Philipps screws are used for our other backs used in studio locations).
The adapter plate of eMotion backs is fixed with "Hex" screws (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Inbus-sruby.jpg), which is also known under the name "Allen" screw (or "Inbus").
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
Thierry,
As I recall, from discussion some months ago, much--if not most--of Sam's concern over changing adaptor plates in the field comes down to Sinar's using Phillips screws.
These are notorious for their slots' becoming deformed when the screw is tightened and the screwdriver, owing to the tapered walls of the slots, rises out of the slots while pressure is still being applied, and scrapes the slots' edges, rather like a small milling machine that's run amok (cf. Sam's use of the word, "burring"--the formation of sharp bits of metal where the screwdriver has done its damage).
Sinar may wish to investigate a change to Allen (aka Inbus or DIN 911 or ISO 2936) or Torx (aka ISO 10664) screws.
-H.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128933\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I did not say that the e22's are trashed. I said they will not return to the market. They are used for servicing, back-up, etc ... by our tech dpt.
Fair enough. Valid points.
Why always see "hidden agendas" or dishonest behaviours in all from the side of the manufacturer?
I don't believe I inferred hidden agendas.
I only speculated at one logical reason for not re-introducing refurbs into the marketplace.
I know that if I were in charge of a product line that was in constant,and frequent,evolution I
would not be rushing to get used,albeit excellent and functioning,product into the hands of
potential new buyers without assessing the impact on new sales
Mark
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no harm, Mark!
But sometimes I feel photographers see us manufacturers only as sharks trying to bite out as much as possible from the customers: I can assure you that we are not thinking that way, may be at the detriment of more business if we would do so. At the first place, we do not push/rush/recommend a trade-in of our products, if we see that it matches the quality needed for the custmer's work.
Best regards,
Thierry
I know that if I were in charge of a product line that was in constant,and frequent,evolution I
would not be rushing to get used,albeit excellent and functioning,product into the hands of
potential new buyers without assessing the impact on new sales
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128938\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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The adapter plate of eMotion backs is fixed with "Hex" screws (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Inbus-sruby.jpg), which is also known under the name "Allen" screw (or "Inbus").[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128935\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ah. That's good to hear. Why didn't you say so, sooner? (a rhetorical question).
Now, I'd have known about the change to hex screws, had current manuals been available for download at www.sinar.ch (hint...).
-H
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I'm sorry if I misunderstand the situation but I think no one is forcing any MFDB owner to trade-in his/her back. If a back is working fine then keep it. If one needs a higher resolution back or simply wants a new toy, then go out and buy one. If one can get better value in a secondary market then sell it there and then buy a new back. Seems that the logic is quite straight-forward or did I miss anything?
Henry
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Dear Henry,
That's absolutely the logic of Sinar and what I am telling to customers.
Best regards,
Thierry
I'm sorry if I misunderstand the situation but I think no one is forcing any MFDB owner to trade-in his/her back. If a back is working fine then keep it. If one needs a higher resolution back or simply wants a new toy, then go out and buy one. If one can get better value in a secondary market then sell it there and then buy a new back. Seems that the logic is quite straight-forward or did I miss anything?
Henry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128942\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Because nobody has asked me (a rethorical answer) :
Why didn't you say so, sooner? (a rhetorical question).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128941\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
We are trying hard, step by step, and you can already (and since long) go to www.sinarcameras.com ---> "Downloads" ---> "User Instructions"
Although I must admit, the user manual for the eMotion backs isn't to be found there, yet.
As said, we are improving step by step on this communication/information level, although may be to slowly for some.
Best regards,
Thierry
Now, I'd have known about the change to hex screws, had current manuals been available for download at www.sinar.ch (hint...).
-H
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128941\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Because nobody has asked me (a rethorical answer) :
We are trying hard, step by step, and you can already (and since long) go to www.sinarcameras.com ---> "Downloads" ---> "User Instructions"
Although I must admit, the user manual for the eMotion backs isn't to be found there, yet.
As said, we are improving step by step on this communication/information level, although may be to slowly for some.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128948\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The way I look into this is that digital back manufacturer is not at the consumer market, they are specifically at the very top of professional market so to offer lines of product of different generations and level is not their market practice, they are different than Canon or Nikon, they need to just offer the best product (perhaps for different application, but the best in class). Not a entry model, semi-pro and pro models and super pro model all running at the same time. I cannot imagine the DB maker selling 2-3 generation of products at the same time so I will assume, or if I were to run such an operation, I will not do it, I will just sell the best I can do. This is a rather small market after all.
And it is because the market is considerably small, it is equally important that manufacturer continue to build new backs - not just to generate sales, but also to develop newer manufacturing skill, know-how, develop new tools - to be ready for next challenge or to gain extra edge in competition. Similar to auto industries, most cars are built to last many years but they still got replaced at a steady path, no matter how good they are, and there are customers like to have the latest car and there are customers want to drive the car as long as it runs. I think eventually we may see a rise of new business to collect old back, modernize them, and resell or rent them to market - perhpas by a spun-off division form camera maker or other technical individuals.
I think the DB makers are no different from us, doing a good job, run a good business, wish to prosper.
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hi K,
you are absolutely right, with your analysis: when a product is finished and hits the market, there are already people thinking and often even already working on a new product. It is the situation all of us have to face today, if wishing to stay up-to-date and at the front.
Best regards,
Thierry
The way I look into this is that digital back manufacturer is not at the consumer market, they are specifically at the very top of professional market so to offer lines of product of different generations and level is not their market practice, they are different than Canon or Nikon, they need to just offer the best product (perhaps for different application, but the best in class). Not a entry model, semi-pro and pro models and super pro model all running at the same time. I cannot imagine the DB maker selling 2-3 generation of products at the same time so I will assume, or if I were to run such an operation, I will not do it, I will just sell the best I can do. This is a rather small market after all.
And it is because the market is considerably small, it is equally important that manufacturer continue to build new backs - not just to generate sales, but also to develop newer manufacturing skill, know-how, develop new tools - to be ready for next challenge or to gain extra edge in competition. Similar to auto industries, most cars are built to last many years but they still got replaced at a steady path, no matter how good they are, and there are customers like to have the latest car and there are customers want to drive the car as long as it runs. I think eventually we may see a rise of new business to collect old back, modernize them, and resell or rent them to market - perhpas by a spun-off division form camera maker or other technical individuals.
I think the DB makers are no different from us, doing a good job, run a good business, wish to prosper.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128953\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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As I recall, from discussion some months ago, much--if not most--of Sam's concern over changing adaptor plates in the field comes down to Sinar's using Phillips screws.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=128933\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
My concern over changing plates is that I photograph real life al lot of the time - I cant stop time
To me it is a compromise not to own at least two bodies
I used to have as many bodies as I did lenses with nikon
Last night I photographed Lilly Allen (a pop music person) the whole oppourtunity was probably only six minutes !
----
TH
It is not 'trashing' sinar to go on about this process
You are a capitalist company who is there to make money and if keeping backs out of circulation does that for you then that is what you must do
There is nothing wrong with making money in a legal manner
I think the practice of buying in was started by a sewing machine company last century after they saturated the sewing machine market and nearly went bust - killed by thier own great product
I just wish there was another way of paying for your profit, wages and R+D costs while using the kit in the best way - which cannot be shelving it
probably some sort of lease scheme - which would actually stable-ise your cashflow and make the market easier to enter and therefore expand the market
I think, in fact, maybach cars do something like this to control the condition of the fleet
S
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If any dealers would like to make a young photographer very happy by donating/cheaply selling me a shelved MFDB to me of any sort in pretty
much any condition, please PM me.
Matthew
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I second that. And I will add that I contacted Sinar USA about finding demo or refurbished backs, and I was never contacted back (I remember that I had initially contacted you Thierry and you were very helpful, but the USA rep never contacted me back). I think by opening up the sales of used and refurbished models and making their availability a bit more transparent, you will build brand consciousness (more backs out there, means more users which means more exposure for your product) and brand loyalty. Young photographers are some of the best potential users for you because they are are the most active on the internet and have the highest potential upside. While someone under 30 or so might become a star (and thus a good person to have using your back), established pros are likely to stay at the same level. Acess to equipment builds brand loyalty as well. If you can hook someone at an early age they will use your product for life, but you are not likely to do that if your products are usually between 20-30,000 dollars. I am not saying you should make cheap backs for the amateur and semi-pro markets, but having an option available for serious pros who can't quite afford a 20k back would be a good thing. Anyway, these are just some thoughts.
I think another good example would be Leica. While they are in constant battle against their used market (with cameras and lenses up to 80 years old still being used regularly), the widespread availability of their cameras and lenses has kept them alive. If the only way to get a Leica was to buy your 5000 dollar M8, 3500 dollar M7 and use several 3500 dollar lenses, no one would be shooting Leica. What keeps Leica afloat is the guy who believes in the mystique, has an M3, a Voigtlander R2 with some used or voigtlander lenses, and decides that he is going to buy that one 2500 dollar 50mm f/1.4 ASPH or that one M7.
Just having a used market available seems like a really good thing to me...but anyway, it's not my call.
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I second that. And I will add that I contacted Sinar USA about finding demo or refurbished backs, and I was never contacted back (I remember that I had initially contacted you Thierry and you were very helpful, but the USA rep never contacted me back). I think by opening up the sales of used and refurbished models and making their availability a bit more transparent, you will build brand consciousness (more backs out there, means more users which means more exposure for your product) and brand loyalty. Young photographers are some of the best potential users for you because they are are the most active on the internet and have the highest potential upside. While someone under 30 or so might become a star (and thus a good person to have using your back), established pros are likely to stay at the same level. Acess to equipment builds brand loyalty as well. If you can hook someone at an early age they will use your product for life, but you are not likely to do that if your products are usually between 20-30,000 dollars. I am not saying you should make cheap backs for the amateur and semi-pro markets, but having an option available for serious pros who can't quite afford a 20k back would be a good thing. Anyway, these are just some thoughts.
I think another good example would be Leica. While they are in constant battle against their used market (with cameras and lenses up to 80 years old still being used regularly), the widespread availability of their cameras and lenses has kept them alive. If the only way to get a Leica was to buy your 5000 dollar M8, 3500 dollar M7 and use several 3500 dollar lenses, no one would be shooting Leica. What keeps Leica afloat is the guy who believes in the mystique, has an M3, a Voigtlander R2 with some used or voigtlander lenses, and decides that he is going to buy that one 2500 dollar 50mm f/1.4 ASPH or that one M7.
Just having a used market available seems like a really good thing to me...but anyway, it's not my call.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=129444\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
As part of the under 30 crowd, I'd too like to throw my support behind re-releasing older backs into the market. There is a huge crowd of folks just itchin' to get into the MFDB market and despise the idea of having to turn to EBay.
There is a market, if you all are willing to invest in it.
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Hear Hear!
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I second that. I have been quite vocal about that as well the last couple of years.
It is not only the shelved backs, it is also the high trade-in value for old backs that must be a factor that keep prices high on new MFDB's.
Most recently I have a wait and see attitude, I don't believe the current business model is sustainable with a growing market and larger amounts of backs that are being bought.
Change is already happening, 3 years ago refurbed backs were out of the question. Trade-in backs were simply destroyed
I expect that sooner or later other older backs will come to market, without warranty, etc..
When the manufacturers do not have to give out high trade-in values anymore prices of new backs can come down. A good used/second hand market will also make the need for trade-in less. You can sell your back on the used market. This will make the treshold for new-comers in the MFDB scene significantly lower.
It is an old problem, everybody in an industry is doing the same thing, who dares to be the first to change.