Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: hilljf on July 09, 2007, 04:13:16 pm
-
Michael, I think your review of the P45+ is very good and fair.
I got my upgrade from the P45 a couple of weeks ago and have observed what you did.
I would only add that the color fidelity is a bit better as well, especially in the blues and purples. You did not mention this and I am curious if you agree with me.
I also experienced the improvement in image clarity, which I believe is due to the improved image processing routines used on the + files. Phase claims that this will get better when C1 4 comes out.
It is better, but better off of excellent is only more excellent.
thanks, John
-
John,
I did not do any rigerous colour testing, so that's something remaining to be done. These types of product review are never really over, are they?
Michael
-
Interesting comments about the Live Video.
Seems very poor especially as you have to set the camera to T mode, open the shutter AND then it pauses every 30 seconds.
Mmmmmm....
Jo S.x
-
Michael, I used the P45 since it became available and have shot hundreds of different images (jobs). I feel I'm getting the optimum of quality but I thought I'd check what settings you have been using in the processing window under Sharpening and Noise Parameters. I've been using the Standard Look sharpening defaults and under Noise Parameters both suppression and banding suppression have been set close to the high settings. The majority of my subject matter is automotive sheetmetal (studio) and interiors. Everything looks good, but I'm curious, what is your experience? Thanks, Jim Haefner
-
I've had mine for a few months now.
I must say, I agree. the Live preview is nothing short of stupid.
Never a more pointless implementation of a feature.
I was messing again with it last night and it adds absolutely "ZERO" value to the process.
Just take a tethered picture. Look, adjust and move on.
The rest is nice, the back LCD (I do 80% hand held) is now exactly what one would expect for this investment!!!
Rob
-
Does anyone know if the + versions have the problem with the timeout error fixed?
When used on a view camera you need to wake up the back, but when no exposure is made, instead of just going back to sleep you get a timeout error. Very annoying when using cameras like Alpa or Cambo freehand, you have to quit the message on the back every time.
And the customer service of Phase One didn't even want to discuss this issue.
-
Does anyone know if the + versions have the problem with the timeout error fixed?
When used on a view camera you need to wake up the back, but when no exposure is made, instead of just going back to sleep you get a timeout error. Very annoying when using cameras like Alpa or Cambo freehand, you have to quit the message on the back every time.
And the customer service of Phase One didn't even want to discuss this issue.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=127445\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I guess I understand your point. I also use P45 with a view camera and a release cable from Kapture Group, which wake up the back from the first half push on cable release then trigger the mechanical shutter of lens. If you stop in the middle of push without triggering the shutter, it will display an error message.
I did that myself occasionally, but I am not sure if I would call it a defective design. I am sure you know how to clear the error message quickly.
Jae Moon
-
Interesting comments about the Live Video.
Seems very poor especially as you have to set the camera to T mode, open the shutter AND then it pauses every 30 seconds.
Mmmmmm....
Jo S.x
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=127324\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
While Michael is correct in stating that the Live Preview times out after 30 seconds as a DEFAULT, if you go into the Live Preview preferences in C1 you can set the time out up to 20 minutes. Obviously the shutter has to be open for the sensor to capture an image, hence the need to put the camera into T or B mode. Live Preview is more suited to a studio photographer, but I have had clients tell me that they will use it on locations and sets where they have to direct large crews of assistants on where to move props etc.
Ron
-
Interesting comments about the Live Video.
Seems very poor especially as you have to set the camera to T mode, open the shutter AND then it pauses every 30 seconds.
Mmmmmm....
Jo S.x
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=127324\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The pausing is a preference setting. You can set it to time out after 5 minutes for sure, and maybe indefinitely (I don't have my back in front of me).
-
I guess I understand your point. I also use P45 with a view camera and a release cable from Kapture Group, which wake up the back from the first half push on cable release then trigger the mechanical shutter of lens. If you stop in the middle of push without triggering the shutter, it will display an error message.
I did that myself occasionally, but I am not sure if I would call it a defective design. I am sure you know how to clear the error message quickly.
Jae Moon
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=127463\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't understand why there is a need for an error message that must be cleared by pressing a button on the back. If I have both of my hands on the camera and by accident pressed the wakeup button I'll miss a shot when the back is blocked. This is simply said a bad design.
There should be a setting that allows the back to go back to sleep after the timeout, without error message. I'm in the software business since more than twenty years, so it's very hard for me to understand why such a fix on the firmware should be impossible to make. And why PhaseOne doesn't even want to discuss that. I'm surely not the only one with that issue.
There comes the argument from Michael into play, if it's not the image quality, it definitely is the handling/post processing offered by the different brands. None of the other manufacturers require a wakeup cable, they all work perfectly well with a normal flash sync cable.
-
While Michael is correct in stating that the Live Preview times out after 30 seconds as a DEFAULT, if you go into the Live Preview preferences in C1 you can set the time out up to 20 minutes. Obviously the shutter has to be open for the sensor to capture an image, hence the need to put the camera into T or B mode. Live Preview is more suited to a studio photographer, but I have had clients tell me that they will use it on locations and sets where they have to direct large crews of assistants on where to move props etc.
Ron
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=127464\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
My comment about the camera having to be set to T or B mode is that it is not necessary with my H2D.
When you open the live video window in FlexColor the mirror automatically goes up and the shutter opens. You also have control of the aperture from the Live Video window.
Pretty good actually.
Jo S.x
-
Is this not a preference issue? Would you prefer to have the back, after a time, "time out" thus requiring depression of a button? Or would you prefer to have the back, after a time, "go to sleep" thus requiring....the depression of a button!
Respond to the time out warning or wake up the back the second time. Not a big difference.
When too much time has elapsed and the back either sleeps or times out, it is a surprise. At least the time out gives a warning message. The time out has been a standard for serial communications for over 45 years that I spent in IT.
-
My comment about the camera having to be set to T or B mode is that it is not necessary with my H2D.
When you open the live video window in FlexColor the mirror automatically goes up and the shutter opens. You also have control of the aperture from the Live Video window.
Pretty good actually.
Jo S.x
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=127500\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'll have to try this....
-
Is this not a preference issue? Would you prefer to have the back, after a time, "time out" thus requiring depression of a button? Or would you prefer to have the back, after a time, "go to sleep" thus requiring....the depression of a button!
Respond to the time out warning or wake up the back the second time. Not a big difference.
When too much time has elapsed and the back either sleeps or times out, it is a surprise. At least the time out gives a warning message. The time out has been a standard for serial communications for over 45 years that I spent in IT.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=127501\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You don't seem to understand. To wake up the back you need a special cable with a wakeup button. Some cameras have that built into the grips/body. With these it's actually possible to initialize the back accidentially.
The normal sentence is to wake up the back, then press the shutter. If the back has already had a timeout, you need to take one hand off the camera, quit the timeout message and start the process again. This has nothing to do with preferences, it's simply a bad design.
-
I've had mine for a few months now.
I must say, I agree. the Live preview is nothing short of stupid.
Never a more pointless implementation of a feature.
I was messing again with it last night and it adds absolutely "ZERO" value to the process.
Just take a tethered picture. Look, adjust and move on.
The rest is nice, the back LCD (I do 80% hand held) is now exactly what one would expect for this investment!!!
Rob
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=127370\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think the LivePreview is a must if using the P45+ on a viewcamera like Sinar P2. It makes a big difference in critical focusing and scheimpfluging. Besides you only need a simple cheap adapter to hook your digital back to Sinar and no need to buy a 3000 euro sliding back.
Totally awesome feature and the only reason for me to upgrade to +.
Patrik
-
Good point. I may have been overly critical on this.
But, with the exception of studio work with a technical camera, where it is tethered to a screen right next to the camera, I hold to my case.
Frankly, the cost of a slide back for focusing is tiny compared to the cost of back and most technical cameras, so I don't see this as a cost saving of much merit. The upgrade fee is about $8,000, far more than any sliding adaptor.
Michael
-
Good point. I may have been overly critical on this.
But, with the exception of studio work with a technical camera, where it is tethered to a screen right next to the camera, I hold to my case.
Frankly, the cost of a slide back for focusing is tiny compared to the cost of back and most technical cameras, so I don't see this as a cost saving of much merit. The upgrade fee is about $8,000, far more than any sliding adaptor.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=127552\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Bottom line.... do you get an $8000.00 bang for the $8000.00 bucks? Its an awful lot of money for the few limited improvements.
Victor
-
FYI:and for those owing a Sinarback, the eMotion 75 upgrade to 75 LV has a cost of approximatively US$ 2'500.-, depending on the country.
Best regards,
Thierry
Bottom line.... do you get an $8000.00 bang for the $8000.00 bucks? Its an awful lot of money for the few limited improvements.
Victor
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=127566\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
Phase One DBs are were engineered with the two shot architecture so that the chip would not always be "on". As you know, you have to wake the back up, and then fire it when it's on a technical camera. Phase One went this route so that it would not need the aid of fans to cool the back and would allow people to shoot in extreme temperatures. It will also allow you to do much longer exposures compared to other DB manufactures, especially with the P45 or P45+.
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
Capture Integration
www.captureintegration.com
-
Dear Chris,
as an information: the eMotion backs do not have a fan either, and don't need a wake-up. They use a different technology to not generate heat which is only possible with Dalsa sensors. The Dalsa sensor's "pulse-flush" design allows an instantaneous reset of the whole CCD. Kodak sensors needs to be run actively in the so-called "keep clean" mode.
Best regards,
Thierry
Phase One DBs are were engineered with the two shot architecture so that the chip would not always be "on". As you know, you have to wake the back up, and then fire it when it's on a technical camera. Phase One went this route so that it would not need the aid of fans to cool the back and would allow people to shoot in extreme temperatures. It will also allow you to do much longer exposures compared to other DB manufactures, especially with the P45 or P45+.
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
Capture Integration
www.captureintegration.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=127572\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
Dear Chris,
as an information: the eMotion backs do not have a fan either, and don't need a wake-up. They use a different technology to not generate heat which is only possible with Dalsa sensors. The Dalsa sensor's "pulse-flush" design allows an instantaneous reset of the whole CCD. Kodak sensors needs to be run actively in the so-called "keep clean" mode.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=127573\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thierry,
My apologies. Thank you for the clarification.
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
Capture Integration
www.captureintegration.com
-
Thierry
Is it possible with the most current dalsa-chipped Sinar Backs to achieve
clean images when exposure times run in excess of 30 seconds or 1 minute where
the presence of very obvious noise (even at 25 and 50 iso) renders an image unuseable?
I have yet to experience a 30 plus second exposure with a dalsa sensor that wasn't
useable without extraordinary post processing to remove the resultant noise mess.
Granted,I only use the backs as loaners/rentals and don't work with them daily but,with that,
it is clear than there is a long exposure/noise issue at play and cuts into the overall
effectiveness of the product for some of my intended useage.
Mark
P.S.-during a P45+ demo last month 4 minute exposures were problem free
-
Chris,
nothing to apology: I have not felt offended!
just a precision in addition to your info.
Thierry
Thierry,
My apologies. Thank you for the clarification.
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
Capture Integration
www.captureintegration.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=127584\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
Dear Mark,
It is difficult to answer in general terms, noise depending first on the ambient temperature when shooting. Also, I did honestly not make any noise tests with the e75 LV yet, although the new electronics inside have improved long exposures.
But Rainer has got his new upgraded back and informed here about very usable ISO 400, although I don't know his exposure time.
I know also that he used ISO 50 in his Bangkok Airport shooting and some 20 to 30 sec. exposure time with his "old" e75 and was saying that the noise level was not a problem.
May be he could emphasize here.
Now, speaking about Phase backs: yes, they have a very strong noise "filter" buil-in, at the expense of overall sharpness and details.
The Sinar file is not software filtered in case of long exposures, but we have a "Noise Reduction" function built-in Captureshop, alowing to eliminate "Luminance" and "Chrominance" noise very effectively. Have a look n this function and try it out.
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
Thierry
Is it possible with the most current dalsa-chipped Sinar Backs to achieve
clean images when exposure times run in excess of 30 seconds or 1 minute where
the presence of very obvious noise (even at 25 and 50 iso) renders an image unuseable?
I have yet to experience a 30 plus second exposure with a dalsa sensor that wasn't
useable without extraordinary post processing to remove the resultant noise mess.
Granted,I only use the backs as loaners/rentals and don't work with them daily but,with that,
it is clear than there is a long exposure/noise issue at play and cuts into the overall
effectiveness of the product for some of my intended useage.
Mark
P.S.-during a P45+ demo last month 4 minute exposures were problem free
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=127650\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
Thanks for the reply,Thierry.
Forgive me,but I just don't understand why it's so difficult to ascertain noise characteristics
of certain sensors as it relates to long exposure needs.
Would you be better able to access information if I asked about the noise characteristics
between 15 and 25 degrees (celsius) at 45 seconds ?
From my experience ,albeit limited, Dalsa sensors really struggle beyond 20 seconds and I
find it a shame as I prefer the look of dalsa for almost everything else but knowing I will
be running my exposure times up frequently I can't justify a purchase without evidence
to suggest the performance issue I see is partly as a result of my inexperience with the
product and software.
Your reference to Rainers experience certainly seems to suggest that the dalsa sensor
is more capable with long exposures than I have seen.
Additionally,I feel your point regarding Phases onboard noise reduction compromising
image sharpness a little overstated.
It's seems clear they have 'pre-processing' going on as long exposure files are a little
smoother than a shorter exposure but the resulting file is certainly not unsharp nor
lacking in detail and enables one to shoot in certain situations where no other DB product
seems able.
Mark
-
From my experience ,albeit limited, Dalsa sensors really struggle beyond 20 seconds and I
find it a shame as I prefer the look of dalsa for almost everything else but knowing I will
be running my exposure times up frequently I can't justify a purchase without evidence
to suggest the performance issue I see is partly as a result of my inexperience with the
product and software.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=127733\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
My experience with the ZD matches your information.
The Dalsa sensor is weak beyong 15 sec. Silkypix is in my book the RAW converter that is best at supressing the pattern noise generated by the sensor for long exposures.
I don't know to what extend Sinar has managed to overcome this sensor weakeness.
Long exposures is clearly THE reason why I would consider investing at some point of time into a PhaseOne back.
Regards,
Bernard
-
Dear Mark,
First of all let me say that I didn't mean to say that a Phase file is not sharp or lacking in details (and didn't say it), but it is a fact that if you apply a noise filter IT DOES affect overall sharpness (and details). It is not a negative critic of a brand, simply a remark. As you wrote it yourself: "It's seems clear they have 'pre-processing' going on as long exposure files are a little
smoother than a shorter exposure".
Then and about noise with Dalsa sensors: I do not have specific data here. But I think that Dalsa sensors are not that much worse than Kodak sensors, in this respect and according to my general experience and if you look at the very raw data. The pre-processing of the file seems to play a big role here. And as said, we do not pre-process with a noise filter: this noise filter is included as a function into Captureshop. The reason is that our policy has always been to give as much as possible a raw data to the photographer.
But as suggested, I prefer a user with experience in long exposures to give his comment here: you would certainly be able to rely on it, since he used the sensor under very harsh temperature conditions (+30°C to + 45°C).
I shall try to gather some more specific information from our technicians, but am asking for your patience, since holiday season has started and some guys are away!
Thanks and kind regards,
Thierry
Thanks for the reply,Thierry.
Forgive me,but I just don't understand why it's so difficult to ascertain noise characteristics
of certain sensors as it relates to long exposure needs.
Would you be better able to access information if I asked about the noise characteristics
between 15 and 25 degrees (celsius) at 45 seconds ?
From my experience ,albeit limited, Dalsa sensors really struggle beyond 20 seconds and I
find it a shame as I prefer the look of dalsa for almost everything else but knowing I will
be running my exposure times up frequently I can't justify a purchase without evidence
to suggest the performance issue I see is partly as a result of my inexperience with the
product and software.
Your reference to Rainers experience certainly seems to suggest that the dalsa sensor
is more capable with long exposures than I have seen.
Additionally,I feel your point regarding Phases onboard noise reduction compromising
image sharpness a little overstated.
It's seems clear they have 'pre-processing' going on as long exposure files are a little
smoother than a shorter exposure but the resulting file is certainly not unsharp nor
lacking in detail and enables one to shoot in certain situations where no other DB product
seems able.
Mark
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=127733\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
Thanks Bernard and Thierry
Mark