Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: rdonson on May 10, 2007, 08:18:39 am
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A number of us purchased Z3100 models without APS to take advantage of rebates from HP. The rebates were very attractive.
The rebates have changed and now more Z models are included. Several of these models include APS.
Now we're wondering what happens to those who purchased w/o APS. Should HP allow registered owners to now purchase APS at a reduced price? Something that would be equivalent to the new rebate program?
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What about those who purhcased APS and paid the full price surely if HP takes up your suggestion, we must be compensated?
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What about those who purhcased APS and paid the full price surely if HP takes up your suggestion, we must be compensated?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=116758\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Great point, Robert.
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I am in the same boat as you guys. And WOULD like APS for free or a VERY resasonable price!!
C
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I am in the same boat as you guys. And WOULD like APS for free or a VERY resasonable price!!
C
Me too
BlasR
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This week I asked HP Germany if it is possible to buy the APS with a rebate to complete my new Z3100, but I got only a short and quite rude answer to ask the reseller where I bought my printer.
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What about those who purhcased APS and paid the full price surely if HP takes up your suggestion, we must be compensated?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=116758\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes.
But the cost to HP for ensuring goodwill with their customers would be far less than $800.00.
All of us who bought the APS would be satisfied with the equivalent of an $800 rebate or coupons for ink and paper. The markup on ink and paper is huge. The cost to HP would be next to nothing
I'll bet that the number of customers who bought the APS separately is a tiny handful. A few hundred even across the entire globe? Maybe even less than that? Less than 50 since the software only worked with the printer, and both were brand new products?
So why not pass out rebates or coupons for HP merchandise and maintain goodwill?
For those who bought the priner without the APS, supplying downloadable software (the APS) would cost HP nothing.
I guess HP doesn't care that threads accuse HP of ripping off and cheating their customers, even after those statements are completely supported and vindicated.
It is odd. HP has worked hard to address our issues related to color, the APS, etc.
Why are they throwing the goodwill away for what is actually a trivial amount of money by their standards?
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A number of us purchased Z3100 models without APS to take advantage of rebates from HP. The rebates were very attractive.
The rebates have changed and now more Z models are included. Several of these models include APS.
Now we're wondering what happens to those who purchased w/o APS. Should HP allow registered owners to now purchase APS at a reduced price? Something that would be equivalent to the new rebate program?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=116755\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I would jump at the chance to buy APS at a significantly reduced price. Even though, I already own the GtratagMacbeth i1 photo system.
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A number of us purchased Z3100 models without APS to take advantage of rebates from HP. The rebates were very attractive.
The rebates have changed and now more Z models are included. Several of these models include APS.
Now we're wondering what happens to those who purchased w/o APS. Should HP allow registered owners to now purchase APS at a reduced price? Something that would be equivalent to the new rebate program?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=116755\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I guess I'm in a fortunate position. I am still within the return period of my 44" z3100 and I haven't claimed the rebate yet. So, if HP is going to include the APS (and I decide I even want it) and offer the z3100ps for the same price as the z3100, then I can simply return my z3100 and get the z3100ps (for the same price).
However, I'm still not seeing where the big conspiracy or rip-off is. At HP, the z3100ps is $7,495. The z3100 without ps is $6,295. Even after the $1000 rebate, the difference between ps and non-ps is $1200. On the 24" models, the difference is $1000.
So the people who are now purchasing the z3100ps and getting the $1000 rebate, are not getting the z3100ps for the same (lower) price we paid. They are still paying $1000 or $1200 more and getting the APS "included."
So, is it really "free" if one is paying $1200 more to have APS "included" on the z3100ps over the z3100?
I'm really not sure I understand the point of all these emotional accusations. I don't see where anyone is getting ripped off. It's getting hot in here again as some "fan the flames."
I'll give you that perhaps I'm a bit calmer because I didn't jump right on the rebate and I can still return my printer if I want. Frankly, I haven't seen any great revelation about APS that makes me want to have it. If I do, that could change.
I do know that one will get further with any company if one doesn't rush to judgment and resort to emotional outbursts, accusations, namecalling, etc.
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I do know that one will get further with any company if one doesn't rush to judgment and resort to emotional outbursts, accusations, namecalling, etc.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=116886\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't think I've rushed to judgment, resorted to an emotional outburst, accusations or name calling.
People were reporting that they were able to buy the PS version for a very small amount more than we bought the basic Z3100.
Other people have purchased the APS separately for the full price only to find that models with the APS are available now with a rebate.
I understand the sentiment of your post but I don't feel guilty of what you're saying.
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I do know that one will get further with any company if one doesn't rush to judgment and resort to emotional outbursts, accusations, namecalling, etc.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=116886\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If you honestly believe that companies who rip off customers will do the right thing if we all make nice, patient, polite calls -- well, that it is a bit naive.
You are emotionally and stubbornly invested in the original argument you made on the thread about HP ripping us off, and I don't ever expect you to change your position. Even if costs you $800. That is your decision to make.
I'd point out that, for the record, that when the facts appeared to demonstrate that I was wrong (no rebate on PS models) I admitted my error and apologized to everyone on the forum. I'll always admit if I'm wrong based on the facts, as I did.
But now the facts clearly support the view that those who bought the printer in the first 60 days lost $800. How you want to deal with that is up to you.
You should follow the example of others on the New HP APS Thread. Admit your error and give it a rest. You might also consider returning your printer, buy the PS model, and save $800.
And please stop telling us that we are so wrong, when the facts now clearly demonstrate the exact opposite.
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I don't think I've rushed to judgment, resorted to an emotional outburst, accusations or name calling.
I understand the sentiment of your post but I don't feel guilty of what you're saying.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=116887\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ron...this comment was certainly not intended for you.
Marty, if I returned my z3100 right now, I could purchase the z3100ps, and yes, I could still get the rebate. And, yes, it would have the APS. But I would have to pay $1200 more for it.
If one has to pay $1200 more to get something "included" is it really "free?"
And, yes, one will get further by engaging in polite discourse with companies than by calling them names on the internet. Frankly, if someone came into my studio and accused me of "dishonestly ripping them off" or "cheating" that would be the end of our conversation and they would have to leave until such time as they can carry on a mature discussion as an adult.
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i guess i am confused by the "free" statement as well. hp seems to be selling the aps/ps version of the 24" for about $1200 more than the non version before rebate. they are now giving rebates for both versions. $1000 each. which still leaves a $1200 difference in price. (earlier on the phone they told me that the ps version was not included, i am glad they changed that, still it keeps the approx. $1000 price difference between the two models the same.... unless i am missing something)
now, some of you seem to be getting a better deal through private vendors in which they seem to be selling the ps/aps version for about the same price or a little more than the non ps/aps version.
it seems that that has nothing to do with hp but everyting to do with those particular vendors and a marketing choice on their part since hp doesn't seem to enforce a set sales price the way apple does with their ipods for instance.
having said that.... i would probably jump at the chance at a greatly discounted or **cough** free aps given out of good will to those of us who have bought the z3100 even though i already have a monoco system and colorimeter.
Ron...this comment was certainly not intended for you.
Marty, if I returned my z3100 right now, I could purchase the z3100ps, and yes, I could still get the rebate. And, yes, it would have the APS. But I would have to pay $1200 more for it.
If one has to pay $1200 more to get something "included" is it really "free?"
And, yes, one will get further by engaging in polite discourse with companies than by calling them names on the internet. Frankly, if someone came into my studio and accused me of "dishonestly ripping them off" or "cheating" that would be the end of our conversation and they would have to leave until such time as they can carry on a mature discussion as an adult.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=116889\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I guess the question is, why on earth did you all buy something you thought was such a poor value?
Prices change and products evolve, it happens everywhere. In the computer world CPU's have price cuts regularly, and memory fluctuates up and down. Those of us who follow it have learned to catch things at the proper time in the life cycle to get the best value. Yet, I don't see anyone complaining about Intel dropping the price of their processors.
I've never seen someone complain that the price of a book or DVD/CD drops over time.
Patient consumers will wait until a car or painting sits on the lot/wall until the seller gets impatient themselves, and is more willing to negotiate.
It's the way our economy works.
Clearly HP is both listening to their customers and feeling some heat from Canon with their upcoming refresh with onboard spectros. I just can't understand why anyone would think they're entitled to HP's changes (free upgrades, refunds, vouchers) beyond firmware and software updates (should they be produced) for products they've already purchased. Obviously everyone here is somewhat intelligent, mastering the use of opposable thumbs and all. Therefore, you made an educated decision in purchasing a Z3100, coming to the conclusion that the equipment was worth the money asked. Thus you traded your hard earned cash for the equipment, and besides warranty and any service plans that were purchased, the deal ends there. Anything extra that HP offers you like software updates and firmware are extra, and anyone that receives a price break now or in the future should consider themselves lucky, receiving a mature product for less.
Honestly, quit your bitching people, all these whiny posts make it tedious to wade through this forum. HP is doing a damned fine job with continued development, and taking care of real issues in a timely fashion.
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If I get silly answers from the HP support after a polite question and after spending more than 2 peanuts for a Z3100, it's easier for me as a customer to pick the next hardware product that I need from another company instead from HP.
I can live with the answers from HP, but this is not the way to build up a loyal customership.
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I bought the 3100 and I was waiting for aps to support the use of 11x17 sheets for profiling. Now that I see resellers able to sell it with aps at a price point that nearly gives it away free I am less interested than ever in the aps. If the resellers can give it away then obviously HP is giving it to the resellers. The price on HPs website is inconsequencial. Who buys direct from them with all the discounted resellers out there to choose from? They have done this without any apparent consideration for the current owners of their printers. I am now more interested than ever in Onyx and Colorbyte. If one of them comes up with a RIP that provides the gamut this inkset is capable of producing and a high accuracy profiling system that makes sense I will gladly pay for that. What HP is doing now with APS is driving away - well, me.
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If I get silly answers from the HP support after a polite question and after spending more than 2 peanuts for a Z3100, it's easier for me as a customer to pick the next hardware product that I need from another company instead from HP.
I can live with the answers from HP, but this is not the way to build up a loyal customership.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=116925\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well, who else do we have to choose from? There's Epson...I've been using cloggy Epson's for the past several years. And Epson's support is the worst I've experienced.
Then there's Canon. I was excited about the ipf5000 and ipf8000 until the documentation and support and reliability of Canon resulted in a "do not buy" recommendation by the founder of the wiki.
I'm not sure what your expectations are. I also spent more than 2 peanuts, but I consider the z a bargain. I've seen no reports of clogs. It appears issues that customer's have had have been addressed through firmware updates, etc. I've had no issues.
Of the 3, HP is the clear leader at this point, to me. If all people have to complain about is some APS pricing that I don't even see reflected in the pricing, then it's a testament to the z3100 being a very well designed machine with few problems.
I am happy that now I don't have to ever call Epson support ever again. And I'm not doing reprints and spending hours dealing with banding from clogs.
I've had to make no calls to HP support with the z3100. I did have a problem with a notebook battery that exhibited all the symptoms that suggested it was subject to a recall, even though the serial number got kicked out of an automated online recall procedure. When I called HP on that matter, I got the runaround. However, I did not lose my cool and resort to namecalling and making exaggerated accusations on web forums. I simply called HP customer support and explained the situation. They got the battery out to me and it solved my problem.
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actually, very nicely put. roscolo.
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actually, very nicely put. roscolo.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=116976\")
About 5 threads are infested with this issue. In the end it is nothing more than the fact that marketing decides what the prices are for any given time, place and goods. Consumers usually decide that it is time to buy and decide where to buy and what to buy. After that everything is changed again, that's how it works. So your next decision may end in a better deal which may not prove to be a better deal as there's a faster machine around (Z6100) or another manufacturer may have improved its range.
Meanwhile you are producing work on the machine you bought first that couldn't have been made if you didn't purchase it in fear of making a bad deal.
Ernst Dinkla
try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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i guess i am confused by the "free" statement as well. hp seems to be selling the aps/ps version of the 24" for about $1200 more than the non version before rebate. unless i am missing something) now, some of you seem to be getting a better deal through private vendors in which they seem to be selling the ps/aps version for about the same price or a little more than the non ps/aps version. it seems that that has nothing to do with hp but everyting to do with those particular vendors
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=116907\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If you want to pay the manufacturer's list price, go ahead and buy from HP. Those of you who want to argue this point love to quote the HP prices, and ignore the prices that any sane person would pay from resellers.
What are you missing? Read the original thread that started this, and then you'll know. As that thread reported, the prices for the Z3100 suddenly dropped by $800. It didn't drop with only one or two vendors. It dropped with many vendors across the board. What is clear is that HP dropped the prices for the resellers. As I recall, the PS model didn't even exist when many of us bought the Z3100 without APS or bought the APS separately. HP created a new model and a new bundle, and the price they are charging resellers allows them to sell the new PS model with APS for roughly the price they charged for the Z3100 without APS less than 60 days ago.
As for comment from Ernst Dinkla that these complaints are infesting the forum, well, all you need to do is stop adding to it. It is the debates that add to the length of the threads, so you have only yourself to blame in that regard. If the threads bother you so much, ignore them. Resist the need to respond! Let those of us who were screwed by HP note that fact on our own.
Ditto with Roscolo. In the thread on HP ripping us off, he based his entire argument on the assertion that the rebates didn't apply to the PS model. (Don't take my word for it, go read his comments on that thread that went on for several pages.) I'm quoting the thesis of his argument correctly. Now that HP blew his argument out of the water by giving rebates to the PS models, he continues to take page after page arguing the point. It is that type of pointless debate that adds to these threads.
When I was told that the rebates didn't apply, I admitted that I was wrong, and actually apologized to the forum. Now that HP clarified that the rebates do apply to the PS model, some of you should follow my example. Instead, some of you just continue to stubbornly debate the point, even after the actions of HP defeated your own arguments.
On the other hand, a few participants on the forum have been gracious enough to admit that those of us who are critical of HP for doing this were right all along, and kudos to them.
For all of those who love to defend the irresponsible behavior of HP, I challenge you to quote 5 examples of manufacturers who released a consumer product costing $4000, persuaded the early adapters to pay that price, and only THE FIRST 60 DAYS later dropped the price by about $800 on that SAME CONSUMER MODEL. (Five out of the tens of thousands of products released every year.) I have put forth that challenge numerous times, and despite all the complaining and weak defenses of HP, no one has responded.
Why not? Maybe because the lesson to all of us is:
DO NOT BUY HP PRODUCTS FOR THE FIRST THREE OR FOUR MONTHS AFTER RELEASE, IN ORDER TO BE CERTAIN HP WON'T DROP THE PRICE AND SCREW ANYONE FOOLISH ENOUGH TO BUY EARLY.[/color]
This is a great lesson for all of us. If we all follow it, it means that hundreds of thousands of dollars of inventory will sit idle in warehouses at any seller of HP products, collecting dust, waiting for the consumers to be convinced that the price won't drop by a spectacular $800.
And that is exactly why manufacturers never behave as irresponsibly as HP. Companies don't dare do this, or consumers will not trust the company, not buy the products when released, and vendors are stuck with tens of thousands of dollars of unsold inventory for the first three or four months.
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*sigh* Companies do this all the time in order to recoup development expenses, and sometimes to even fund and test the end of development. Also, they're able to lower prices as demand picks up causing manufacturing costs to go down. As an early adopter, this is something you should be comfortable with. If you aren't, then wait for products and their placement in the market to mature.
There's nothing sinister here.
Intel spent billions and billions on the IA64 (Itanium) architecture, only to make very immature first releases which were only good for several very narrow markets (mostly telco). The processors costs were extremely high, but development continued and performance improved widening the market and allowing the price to drop.
Every car is released with much fan fare, and then the prices slowly drop as better and better deals are introduced leading up to the next years releases.
Digital SLRs are introduced at a given price point, only to have them replaced as the flagship in a year or so. They aren't taken off the market, though, the prices are dropped and they're sold to a more budget segment. Does that magically make it a lesser camera? Does it give you reason to be upset because you paid more?
Sticking with digital cameras, Sigma released the SD9 with a novel new tech from Foveon which stacks sensors, each dedicated to a seperate color channel. The technology is very new, and has it's issues like noise. But early adopters have purchased the various generations, and while still not perfect, Sigma's current SD14 is much improved.
HD DVD came on the market at a very high price point, but prices have been dropping significantly since then and will continue to do so. The same thing goes for Blueray, DVD, and CD technologies. The same will happen with these ultra-high density optical backup solutions when they start going mainstream.
As for those of us who are sick of these posts infesting the forum, why should we roll over and let others slander a company based on their clear lack of understanding of economics and R&D?
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*sigh* Companies do this all the time in order to recoup development expenses, and sometimes to even fund and test the end of development. Also, they're able to lower prices as demand picks up causing manufacturing costs to go down. As an early adopter, this is something you should be comfortable with. If you aren't, then wait for products and their placement in the market to mature.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=117077\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
First, I'm the one who complained about the infestation of these threads, or who took cheap shots at those who are protesting what HP did to us. That's my point. Those of you who made that argument have chosen to flame those who you disagree with. In some cases, to keep the endless argument going, even after HP itself undermined and destroyed your argument that the rebates don't apply to PS models. These threads are so long, in part, because postings are making the same arguments that were already discussed and disposed of in earlier threads.
Now that HP destroyed your own argument about rebates, the new approach is to argue that HP is not any different from any other company, and they all act the same. Except that other companies do not behave like HP because if they did, none of the companies could ever sell any products for the first 60 days as consumers waited them out for the inevitable reduction in price. The argument is fallacious. Lots of generalizations, with no specifics. If you want to defend HP, you need to do better than provide vague assertions that prove nothing.
I challenged you to provide five SPECIFIC examples of consumer products that were widely released for consumer use that cost $4000 and were then cut by an astonishing $800 ON THE SAME MODEL in only THE FIRST 60 DAYS, thereby screwing the early adapters.
You cite examples of later price cuts on cars. Cars that gradually drop in price over many months. Generally just before the next new model is released, many months after the first model is released, and vendors need to clear out inventory on the previous model. That is not the same as cutting the price on a $4000 item -- ON THE SAME MODEL -- by $800 in the FIRST 60 DAYS thereby screwing those customers those out of $800. Your analogy is fallacious and doesn't apply. We covered that in previous threads. Please read them.
You cite examples of cutting-edge products that later drop in price as the second or third generation model is released. (Blu-Ray, HD-DVD, CD) The process you are describing takes closer to 1 or 2 years to drop prices, not 60 days. I bought a Panasonic Blu-Ray for the very steep price charged to an early adapter for new technology. Six months later that specific model is still selling for the same price. Panasonic did not screw me and drop the price 60 days after release of that specific model. Will Panasonic drop the price on the second generation -- on an entirely different and new model? Of course. But that is not our point, now is it? Again, not the same as cutting the price on THE SAME MODEL in the FIRST 60 DAYS by an astonishing $800. Your analogy is, again, fallacious and doesn't apply. Also covered in previous threads. Please read them.
You cite the example of digital SLRs that are replaced by a new model, and then you state that "they aren't taken off the market, though, the prices are dropped and they're sold to a more budget segment." Again, this argument isn't just fallacious. It doesn't even remotely apply. No one is complaining about a price reduction on the Z3100 after the replacement model is released one year from now. That hasn't even happened. We're talking about THE SAME MODEL being cut by $800 IN THE FIRST 60 DAYS. Also covered in previous threads. Please read them.
You cite Sigma cameras, arguing that the technology has problems for early adapters. But in that case, you don't even mention whether it dropped in price. Our complaint is about losing $800.
In point of fact, your Sigma analogy is precisely our complaint. The Z3100 had a number of serious problems when it was first released. It was the early adapters who discovered these problems and acted as the guinea pigs for HP. It was the early adapters who patiently worked with HP to solve the problems. Also covered in previous threads, please read them.
It is the early adapters who HP royally screwed and mistreated.
The way that HP treated early adapters is appalling and sets a new low for corporate behavior.
What you did not do is address the central argument, namely that any company who does this sends one message to their customers, vendors, and resellers:
DO NOT BUY HP PRODUCTS FOR THE FIRST THREE OR FOUR MONTHS AFTER RELEASE, IN ORDER TO BE CERTAIN HP WON'T DROP THE PRICE AND SCREW ANYONE FOOLISH ENOUGH TO BUY EARLY.
You say that HP is such a fine company? All they need to do is demonstrate that. Something as simple as a rebate to receive $800 of paper and ink -- $800 at HP inflated manufacturer list prices. (HP sells single ink cartridges for $75; resellers sell two of those in a pack for $95) The markup on paper and ink is so high that it would cost HP next to nothing, especially when considering how few $4000 large format printers sold in the the first 60 days.
If HP is such a great company, maintaining their reputation and building good will would be so cheap it would probably cost them less money that what their top ten executives spent on travel and entertainment expenses in the same period of time -- in 60 days.
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The APS app is the GP part of the PS package if I read the PDF correctly.
The PS model is not the same as the raster driver normal Z printer.
While I'll agree that some gest should be given to the early birds that were there from the beginning for software that is not as flexible as it should be, the marketing decision to package it with the GP PS version has nothing to do with the non PS models , nor the timing of promotions.
It's sad too that ThomasK had a bad and unjust reply from his localisation. But I will assure you that many others in various localisations have gotten quite far by participating with HP reps to create a community. Those who do actually get somewhere, for the ones who don't it seems from this forum they don't.