Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: cesarrojo on April 22, 2007, 06:14:59 am

Title: MF for action and banding on p25
Post by: cesarrojo on April 22, 2007, 06:14:59 am: Finally I decided to get a DB for doing mainly sports. Bikes, motorcycles.... Yesterday I tried for first time and as others told me in here i find there is no lag on the shutter (at least shooting manual) as a person told me that i will need to make the pic like at least half a meter before...

Also has a problem with a big band on the picture when shooting to the sun, is this norma? Anyone having the same problem?

Here is a sample only reduced to 50%

Thanks!
Title: MF for action and banding on p25
Post by: andybuk99 on April 22, 2007, 06:26:17 am: Quote
Finally I decided to get a DB for doing mainly sports. Bikes, motorcycles.... Yesterday I tried for first time and as others told me in here i find there is no lag on the shutter (at least shooting manual) as a person told me that i will need to make the pic like at least half a meter before...

Also has a problem with a big band on the picture when shooting to the sun, is this norma? Anyone having the same problem?

Here is a sample only reduced to 50%

Thanks!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=113615\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Surely thats flare isnt it? In which case yes it is normal to get strange effects.
Title: MF for action and banding on p25
Post by: Graham Mitchell on April 22, 2007, 06:37:10 am: Any shutter lag is a function of the camera, not the digital back.

The effect you are seeing is a known problem with digital sensors (maybe only some, maybe all). The same thing happened with the Leica M8. Excessive light in one part of the image causes some sort of spillover effect into adjacent sensors.
Title: MF for action and banding on p25
Post by: cesarrojo on April 22, 2007, 06:38:24 am: Doesn't look like a flare to me is completely vertical also.

Quote
Surely thats flare isnt it? In which case yes it is normal to get strange effects.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=113617\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: MF for action and banding on p25
Post by: yaya on April 22, 2007, 06:38:28 am: Quote
Surely thats flare isnt it? In which case yes it is normal to get strange effects.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=113617\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It is called blooming, where some pixels cannot hold the info and fotons are over-flowing to neighbouring pixels.

Dalsa CCDs deal with this issue a bit better than the Kodak CCDs.

You can try to avoid it by closing a stop or half a stop.

Yair
Title: MF for action and banding on p25
Post by: cesarrojo on April 22, 2007, 06:40:33 am: I know is related the lag to the cam but just was saying that a person here in the forum when asking for MF for sports told me big shutter lag so not well for sports i havent found this shutter has really low lag.

Haven't had this problems with sun with my d2x, this is weird.

Quote
Any shutter lag is a function of the camera, not the digital back.

The effect you are seeing is a known problem with digital sensors (maybe only some, maybe all). The same thing happened with the Leica M8. Excessive light in one part of the image causes some sort of spillover effect into adjacent sensors.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=113618\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: MF for action and banding on p25
Post by: cesarrojo on April 22, 2007, 06:42:06 am: Thanks! I will try next time with different apertures

Quote
It is called blooming, where some pixels cannot hold the info and fotons are over-flowing to neighbouring pixels.

Dalsa CCDs deal with this issue a bit better than the Kodak CCDs.

You can try to avoid it by closing a stop or half a stop.

Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=113620\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: MF for action and banding on p25
Post by: thsinar on April 22, 2007, 06:44:42 am: this is called blooming: when pixels are over-saturated and filled-up with light, which is then "flawing" into neighbour pixels.

Try not to over-expose that much the high-lights.

Thierry

Quote
Doesn't look like a flare to me is completely vertical also.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=113619\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: MF for action and banding on p25
Post by: thsinar on April 22, 2007, 06:46:30 am: deleted
Title: MF for action and banding on p25
Post by: BernardLanguillier on April 22, 2007, 08:15:49 pm: Quote
The effect you are seeing is a known problem with digital sensors (maybe only some, maybe all). The same thing happened with the Leica M8. Excessive light in one part of the image causes some sort of spillover effect into adjacent sensors.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=113618\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Never since a problem like this one on my ZD, although I have shot with the sun right in the image. Could it be the Dalsa sensor?

Known landscape shooters like Michale have used Phaseone backs for landscape for years now, I'd expect such a problem to have been reported if shooting with the sun in the image caused such issues with Phase backs.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: MF for action and banding on p25
Post by: vgogolak on April 22, 2007, 10:46:27 pm: nice way to ruin a sensor.

and you eyes, I hope you were not looking when you took this

Victor
Title: MF for action and banding on p25
Post by: Dustbak on April 23, 2007, 01:46:41 am: This is a weird and ugly form of blooming. I have not seen this type very often. Someone on another forum had images like this but these have been taken with a Nikon D50.

Besides that, in this image the sun is partly in the image but not that extreme. I have images where it is in a lot more without this phenomena.

It might be that the coating and optics of the lens I used for these images behave differently or my sensor has less problems with this. My sensor is a Dalsa BTW.

Come on.. with the stuff we use now we are afraid of dust, afraid of using it in cold or hot & moist environments and now we are no longer allowed to shoot with the sun in the frame ?
Title: MF for action and banding on p25
Post by: cesarrojo on April 23, 2007, 04:26:54 am: ruin a sensor shooting into the sun? so I have a camera that i'm alloud to use it only sometimes... funny.... Anyway doing portraits already shoot into sun but as aperture was different haven't found this problem.
Cesar.

Quote
nice way to ruin a sensor.

and you eyes, I hope you were not looking when you took this

Victor
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=113717\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: MF for action and banding on p25
Post by: cesarrojo on April 23, 2007, 04:30:57 am: Yes i think is pretty weird even more for a 15000€ camera... I did also some portraits shooting into the sun but as aperture was different haven't had this problem.

Quote
This is a weird and ugly form of blooming. I have not seen this type very often. Someone on another forum had images like this but these have been taken with a Nikon D50.

Besides that, in this image the sun is partly in the image but not that extreme. I have images where it is in a lot more without this phenomena.

It might be that the coating and optics of the lens I used for these images behave differently or my sensor has less problems with this. My sensor is a Dalsa BTW.

Come on.. with the stuff we use now we are afraid of dust, afraid of using it in cold or hot & moist environments and now we are no longer allowed to shoot with the sun in the frame ?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=113737\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: MF for action and banding on p25
Post by: Vilde Kanin on April 23, 2007, 04:38:40 am: I wouldn’t agree on the blooming issue, as the phenomenon isn’t completely horizontal (following pixel lines) and having jagged edges, as it would be if it was caused by over saturated pixels.

In my opinion the problem looks analogue, and could be caused by the optics.

Shooting into direct sunlight would not damage the sensor on a digital back, but as seen it can generate some artifacts, but the DB should be able to handle the blooming effect.

All the best
Title: MF for action and banding on p25
Post by: rainer_v on April 23, 2007, 06:35:15 am: i never heard of a ruined sensor when shooting normal times (!) in the sun. but since years it is known that one of the disadvantages of the kodak sensor designs is blooming and fringing in backlit situations .... comes from the sensor design, which was not changed in its characteristic since the 16mp kodak back.
Title: MF for action and banding on p25
Post by: jeff_singer on April 23, 2007, 04:49:11 pm: I had what looks to be the same type of banding problem when shooting into the sun. See the attached file for a full size crop. The second photo is the full photo for reference... the banding has been photoshopped out of it.

Luckily it was in a place where it could be easily photoshopped out.

Jeff

Quote
Finally I decided to get a DB for doing mainly sports. Bikes, motorcycles.... Yesterday I tried for first time and as others told me in here i find there is no lag on the shutter (at least shooting manual) as a person told me that i will need to make the pic like at least half a meter before...

Also has a problem with a big band on the picture when shooting to the sun, is this norma? Anyone having the same problem?

Here is a sample only reduced to 50%

Thanks!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=113615\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: MF for action and banding on p25
Post by: paul_jones on April 23, 2007, 06:31:53 pm: i got a horizontal band on some shots i was doing looking into the sun- just like this example, first with a p25, then the p20 (backup, while p25 gets repaired).

exactly the same ligting, the canon 5d doesnt do it- but has far less info in the highlights.

i was going to just live with it, and photoshop.

paul
Title: MF for action and banding on p25
Post by: BernardLanguillier on April 23, 2007, 09:33:42 pm: Such issues must be delightful for Hassy and Mamiya...

In the current situation, the photographer has no way to know if the back is at fault, or if the lens is the culprit, or worse, a combination of the 2.

Would you be using a ZD back of a H3D, you'd just have to call up Mamiya/Hassy. As a system vendor, they would have to provide you with an answer.

I'd be interested in hearing the official answer from PhaseOne on this topic.

Regards,
Bernard
Title: MF for action and banding on p25
Post by: thsinar on April 24, 2007, 01:14:24 am: FYI: This is (like the sample from Cesarrojo) NOT banding.

This is definitively "Blooming" = an over-saturation of pixels with light, flowing into neighbour pixels, as described above by many.

Wikipedia's definition of "Banding":

"Colour banding is a problem of inaccurate colour presentation in computer graphics. While in 24 bit colour modes, 8 bits per channel should be enough to render images in the full visible spectrum, in some cases there is a risk of producing abrupt changes between shades of the same colour. For instance, displaying natural gradients (like sunsets, dawns or clear blue skies) can show minor banding.
Colour banding is more present with relatively low bits per pixel (BPP) at 16–256 colours (4–8 BPP), where not every shade can be shown because there aren't enough bits to represent them.
A possible solution is to introduce dithering, or increase the number of bits per channel".

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
I had what looks to be the same type of banding problem when shooting into the sun. See the attached file for a full size crop. The second photo is the full photo for reference... the banding has been photoshopped out of it.

Luckily it was in a place where it could be easily photoshopped out.

Jeff
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=113857\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]