Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: dgberg on January 15, 2025, 09:31:45 am
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Spent a good bit of time making 3 new profiles for my 4600. Since I am printing mostly canvas the profiles I am presently working with are for Lexjets Fredrix Sunset Select matte.
I printed the image shown below and initially thought it came out pretty darn good. That is until the photographer came over to pick it up. The first words out of his mouth were why is it so yellow.
I have the same canvas in my P8000 so we ran a smaller print and of course the yellowish tint was gone. Ran another small one on the 4600 using the new icc profile and back to yellow again. Turned off the color management and tried another small one with printer manages color. You guessed it, came out perfect and matched the P8000 almost exactly. Nozzle check was perfect.
I have a friend in Colorado printing with a Canon 4100 and he uses printer manages color all the time due to bad results with profiles. Really don't want to make a whole new set of profiles, ugg..
I think I will see if Lexjet has an in house 4600 to make me a profile to try. Suggestions.
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You should always start a test output profile using good color reference images designed for that task. The color reference images RGB values are such that they are set for output and are editing and display agnostic. Test the output this way and examine for the same color issues so we know it's not your image-specific issues causing the problems:
http://www.digitaldog.net/files/2014PrinterTestFileFlat.tif.zip
This and other such documents can also be downloaded at http://www.digitaldog.net/
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Thank you
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Yikes, colors are all over the place. None of the 4 canvas profiles have printed acceptable results.
The only one that is half decent is the printer manages color one and it is not great. This is with your color reference image.
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Something is way off; a color setting or something in the print driver. Then maybe do the Epson Enema and install the print drivers (from Epson) again:
1. Delete all instances of Epson printers from System Preferences (System Settings in Ventura)>Print & Fax.
2. Then go to /Library/Printers and toss the whole Epson folder.
3. Toss LFP Remote Panel (IF you are using this utility for your printer).
4. Then reinstall drivers from Epson and never Apple.
NOTE: IF you have more than one Epson printer, you need to install the driver in the order of their release! Older then newer or you run into issues (eg, install 4800 before you’d install 3880).
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This is my Canon printer, not an Epson.
Before I do that (I have 7 printers) something seems odd with the drivers.
I don't have air print but it is using the cups driver. If I go to Canon support it shows a totally different driver and firmware that I presently have.
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Got a perfect test print with Printer Manages Color.
Did 7 test prints using icc profiles and none were acceptable. Not the way it is supposed to work.
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Got a perfect test print with Printer Manages Color.
Did 7 test prints using icc profiles and none were acceptable. Not the way it is supposed to work.
It isn't the way it should work; something is broken! PMC is a temporary 'fix'.
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Hi Dan,
I'm sorry to see you having problems with the Canon....
I'm the guy who probably bought the last 4100 (!) ;D and just recently bought a new Mac so I too have had my fair share of the kind of hassles you seem to be having moving to Sequoia!
Firstly, where are you printing from, Lightroom, Photoshop or something else?
I am printing through Lightroom and Photoshop without any colour issues (at the moment!) This is the driver I use: https://www.canon-europe.com/support/business/products/wide-format-printers/imageprograf/pro-series/imageprograf-pro-4600.html?type=drivers&language=EN&os=macOS%2015%20(Sequoia)
It is the same driver as the 4100.
When you add the driver through "System Settings", in “Add Printer” make sure you select the correct software i.e. Where it says “Use" click on “Select Software” and then click on Canon PRO-4600.
If you are printing through Lightroom, make sure 16-Bit is off.
That’s all I can think of and I am getting the correct results now…
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Hi Dan.
I too am sorry that you are having so many difficulties with your Canon printer. I have used Canon printers for a long time and always found them very reliable and capable of producing really great prints.
Unfortunately, there are now a lot of gotchas built-in to Sonoma and Sequoia. A very long story short Canon Japan have confirmed that there is bug in both Sonoma and Sequoia which, if you use printer presets in the Apple dialogue, then colour management will not correctly be turned-off for the printer.
However, if you use Canon's 'Professional Print & Layout' this bypasses the Apple print dialogues and should perform correctly when an 'application manages colour' is selected. 'Professional Print & Layout' is a bit fiddly to use but can be accessed via a plug-in from both Lightroom and Photoshop.
I can’t remember from previous posts whether you've tried this option, or whether you use another RIP such as Imageprint, but Canon's 'Professional Print & Layout' might be worth a try if it transpires the profiles are not at fault.
Apple needs to get their act together and sort-out this nonsense with colour management. Over the years we have had to endure repeated problems with printing and colour management and it is really not acceptable.
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I am printing from Lightroom and I have the same cups drive as you.
In all the sample prints I have done to date I have gotten all kinds of different results trying 3 or 4 different medias, all canvas.
What media setting are you guys using? canvas, matte canvas or artistic matte canvas or something else. With the same canvas on my p8000 I use watercolor radiant white but canon does not have those choices.
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A very long story short Canon Japan have confirmed that there is bug in both Sonoma and Sequoia which, if you use printer presets in the Apple dialogue, then colour management will not correctly be turned-off for the printer.
Yes (although so far, Sequoia *seems* fine on this end), but the fix is easy: don't use presets or rely on them; set the driver correctly/manually every time.
http://digitaldog.net/files/API%20Print%20bug%20in%20macOS.pdf
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I had a devil of a time profiling satin canvas (I know you're using matte) using an a Rev D i1Pro - there were all sorts of spikes and peaks in the profile gamut plot. The texture played havoc with the readings (I've not tried to profile a matte canvas), but as you've had success profiling for the Epson, I guess this is not a factor. Might not hurt to check there are no weirdnesses in profiler.
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I am printing from Lightroom and I have the same cups drive as you.
In all the sample prints I have done to date I have gotten all kinds of different results trying 3 or 4 different medias, all canvas.
What media setting are you guys using? canvas, matte canvas or artistic matte canvas or something else. With the same canvas on my p8000 I use watercolor radiant white but canon does not have those choices.
The second thing I did after installing the driver was create custom media files using the Media Configuration Tool for all my papers (I don't print on canvas).
I first do the "Paper Feed Adjustment" and then "Calibration Target". They don't use much paper and I am sure that doing the Calibration Target helped with colours....this feature was also available on my previous 8400 but I didn't use it.
Only once I have done those two things do I create the profiles using Adobe Color Printer Utility.
My print presets seem to be sticking but I double-check them anyway. In Lightroom I also have to keep checking that somehow the 16-Bit box hasn't checked itself....
I also remember reading that you should first uninstall the driver and then re-download and install it, then add it to your printer list in "System Settings".
That's all I can think of at the moment...
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Yes (although so far, Sequoia *seems* fine on this end), but the fix is easy: don't use presets or rely on them; set the driver correctly/manually every time.
http://digitaldog.net/files/API%20Print%20bug%20in%20macOS.pdf
So, I'm back to paper and pen ;D to make a note of how I had set-up the printer for each paper type when I profiled it. Makes me smile every time I think about it !
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So, I'm back to paper and pen ;D to make a note of how I had set-up the printer for each paper type when I profiled it. Makes me smile every time I think about it !
Not quite and explained in the URL provided. But yes, there is one critical setting you must confirm as active each time.
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Not quite and explained in the URL provided. But yes, there is one critical setting you must confirm as active each time.
Andrew, I have read your very helpful PDF on the link you provided. For the sake of clarity and, hopefully, to help others may I add my observations in relation to Canon printers ?
The experience with Canon printers is different from yours with Epson. This has been replicated by Canon UK under both Sonoma and Sequoia and videos of this behaviour have been sent to Canon in Japan.
When ‘application manages colour’ is chosen there is no option to select either ColorSync or Canon Color Matching in the print dialogue. This option is greyed out. If a printer pre-set has not been saved then ColorSync is selected. All is well.
When ‘application manages colour’ is chosen, and a printer pre-set has been saved, there is no option to select either ‘ColorSync’ or ‘Canon Color Matching’. This option is greyed out. But ‘Canon Color Matching’ is selected by default. In the Apple dialogue this then allows the user to select the ‘Rendering Intent’ of either ‘No Color Correction’ or ‘Perceptual (Photo)’.
‘No Color Correction’ produces prints with inaccurate colours somewhat reminiscent of printing without any colour management.
‘Perceptual (Photo)’ produces acceptable looking prints but Canon UK’s technical support assures me that this is not producing prints where the application is only managing the colour. Exactly what is happening here is obscure.
Canon in Japan have said that they have investigated and found that the fault lies with Apple programming and they have reported this to Apple as a bug.
The current advice from Canon is not to save any printer pre-sets, thus the need for a pen and paper.
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And exactly how my Canon is behaving.
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Andrew, I have read your very helpful PDF on the link you provided. For the sake of clarity and, hopefully, to help others may I add my observations in relation to Canon printers ?
The experience with Canon printers is different from yours with Epson. This has been replicated by Canon UK under both Sonoma and Sequoia and videos of this behaviour have been sent to Canon in Japan.
When ‘application manages colour’ is chosen there is no option to select either ColorSync or Canon Color Matching in the print dialogue. This option is greyed out. If a printer pre-set has not been saved then ColorSync is selected. All is well.
When ‘application manages colour’ is chosen, and a printer pre-set has been saved, there is no option to select either ‘ColorSync’ or ‘Canon Color Matching’. This option is greyed out. But ‘Canon Color Matching’ is selected by default. In the Apple dialogue this then allows the user to select the ‘Rendering Intent’ of either ‘No Color Correction’ or ‘Perceptual (Photo)’.
‘No Color Correction’ produces prints with inaccurate colours somewhat reminiscent of printing without any colour management.
‘Perceptual (Photo)’ produces acceptable looking prints but Canon UK’s technical support assures me that this is not producing prints where the application is only managing the colour. Exactly what is happening here is obscure.
Canon in Japan have said that they have investigated and found that the fault lies with Apple programming and they have reported this to Apple as a bug.
The current advice from Canon is not to save any printer pre-sets, thus the need for a pen and paper.
Hi Simon,
After reading your post I started fiddling around and I have discovered this:
If, in Lightroom, you do not select a colour profile and press "Printer".
In the driver, you go to "Printer Options" then "Colour Matching" - you then have the option to choose between "ColorSync" and "Canon Colour Matching".
If you select "ColorSync" you then have the option to select the ICC Profile there.
You then select "Quality & Media" and make your various selections there,
and, finally, I go to "Advanced Paper Settings"and "Calibration Value" and I set to "Use Value" (this is the value that you get when you do the calibration in the MCT tool).
Finally, I created a Preset in the print dialogue for Preview - not Lightroom or PS (I read that somewhere..!) and saved it as a "Custom Preset" - not a "Print Job Preset" So far it is sticking every time I check...
I made a test print where you get a warning (see image) but ignore it and print. The colours are perfect, to my eye at least!
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Well I finally have acceptable results, 2 rolls of canvas later.
Printed through Canon professional print and layout. The 2033 patch profile I made is perfect.
There was nothing wrong with it all along except the Apple/Adobe glitch or whatever we call it.
I used the canon media guide to setup the .am1x media file and every thing looks fantastic except the black and white image on the test file.
I printed one of the files using Canons Black and White file and it was no better.
The only black and white test file that looks really good is when selecting Printer manages color so I am taking good notes. It was suggested that I use a rip but everything at least for now is more than acceptable.
Getting older, more stubborn and pretty set in my Epson printing ways or I may have flushed this out earlier. Thank you all for your input.
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Glad to hear you're having success with PPL. For Canon, ImagePrint Black/Red doesn't buy you anything over PPL in terms of print quality as IP still leverages the Canon driver. Same with QImage. They make the workflow better and ImagePrint Black comes with a profiling service, but I know you'd rather make your own profiles anyhow.
I've heard there are other RIPs that might more directly control the printer, but I haven't used any. So I wouldn't jump on a RIP right now if Canon PPL is working for you.
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Well I finally have acceptable results, 2 rolls of canvas later.
Printed through Canon professional print and layout. The 2033 patch profile I made is perfect.
There was nothing wrong with it all along except the Apple/Adobe glitch or whatever we call it.
I used the canon media guide to setup the .am1x media file and every thing looks fantastic except the black and white image on the test file.
I printed one of the files using Canons Black and White file and it was no better.
The only black and white test file that looks really good is when selecting Printer manages color so I am taking good notes. It was suggested that I use a rip but everything at least for now is more than acceptable.
Getting older, more stubborn and pretty set in my Epson printing ways or I may have flushed this out earlier. Thank you all for your input.
Dan, I'm so pleased you've finally managed to get acceptable results.
I wish we could find a way of forcefully impressing on Apple the urgent need to fix this problem. I did send a letter by airmail to Tim Cooke but sadly never received even an acknowledgement.
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HI Dan, I am pleased to hear that you are happier(?) now! :D
This thread got me checking various things and I have spent quite a bit of time making test using various methods...I even downloaded Mirage on the 14-say trial and have persisted with trying to learn the Canon Professional Print and Layout.(CPPL)
It turns out that the way I have been printing through Lightroom and Photoshop produces the exact same test prints as the other two methods.
However, what I have discovered through all this is: (see illustration) - the resolution is (in CPPL) 240dpi and the colourspace is Adobe 1998 Update: ...from Lightroom.
I was "taught" by the Jeff Schewe and Michael Reichmann videos that Canon is 300 or 600dpi and Epson 360 or 720dpi...why is Canon converting that to 240dpi and also converting the colourspace?
Lightroom must be where the problem is...
Am I missing some place to set these things?
UPDATE: When I send the same image through Photoshop it does not change anything!!??
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Very interesting. I have no answer. Let us know what if anything you may find.
Thank you for all your input.
I am jumping back and forth between 3 printers. Epson P8000 and P5370 and the Canon P4600.
With the Epson's and printing through Lightroom the prints are spot on.
It was when printing with the Canon I could not get acceptable prints with Lightroom but when switching to the Canon and printing with Canon Print Layout they came out perfect.
Something about the Canon that just does not play well with Adobe/Apple. That we all pretty much know.
Dan
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Very interesting. I have no answer. Let us know what if anything you may find.
Thank you for all your input.
It was when printing with the Canon I could not get acceptable prints with Lightroom but when switching to the Canon and printing with Canon Print Layout they came out perfect.
Something about the Canon that just does not play well with Adobe/Apple. That we all pretty much know.
Dan
After more testing, using Bill Atkinson's Balls, I have decided that, from now on I will go from Lightroom to Photoshop where I will size and prepare the image. From there I will go to Canon Professional Print & Layout and make the print from there!