Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Capture One Q&A => Topic started by: narikin on September 24, 2024, 12:50:06 pm
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Hi all,
I have multiple versions of Capture One bought over the years - Perpetual x3 and a 'Subscription' for current one that I've cancelled renewal on (but still active right now)
Beginning to feel I'm being gouged a bit as they want nearly $200 for a basic annual pro license. Seems a lot.
Might just revert back to my last 'Perpetual' version for a while which is 16.2.6 (confusingly call 'Capture One Pro 22' or '23?)
Any thoughts, or am I missing a trick?
I grew up in the age of buy the software (Photoshop, C1, etc) and that was it. You owned it!
The annual license thing just feels like I'm being bled dry by ever company out there!
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No, you never owned it. You purchased a license to use the software (which could be revoked). It was all spelled out in the EULA, even the very old EULA from Photoshop.
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The point about ownership vs license is semantics when it comes to the practicalities. If you have a perpetual license then you can use it for as long as you like, provided that the license is non-revokeable. And therein may lie the catch. I have a feeling that in taking out a subscription one of the terms and conditions was that all previous licenses were revoked. If that is correct, it was probably why I decided never take out a subscription. At some stage in the future if I buy a new camera then I may just opt for a new perpetual license.
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The point about ownership vs license is semantics when it comes to the practicalities. If you have a perpetual license then you can use it for as long as you like, provided that the license is non-revokeable.
If indeed, big "if"! It was/is absolutely revocable including Adobe's. Maybe you two haven't been around long enough to have used software that had activation for this very reason!
You both need to read EULAs (I've been in the software business, producing software for the Photoshop ecosystem, AND my software had an EULA, so I've had to produce them).
Facts you can accept or ignore:
https://www.allbusiness.com/the-difference-between-buying-and-licensing-software-928-1.html
When you purchase software, you receive a copy of the software and a license to use it. You don't actually own the software—ownership rights belong to the software company, and you're still limited by the terms and conditions of the license.
Know what your software license says
A software license gives you the right to use a software product. It also governs the use of the software along with the copyright laws, which prevent the unauthorized distribution or reproduction of the software. A license might also specify, among other terms and conditions, whether or not you may install the software on more than one computer and whether or not you can create backup copies of the software.
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I have a feeling that in taking out a subscription one of the terms and conditions was that all previous licenses were revoked. If that is correct, it was probably why I decided never take out a subscription. At some stage in the future if I buy a new camera then I may just opt for a new perpetual license.
In the case of Adobe (I will never speak for all) your “Feeling” is incorrect.
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Ok, Andrew, maybe you are pedantically right in the legalese distinction between fully owning vs licensing and the option to 'revoke' those 'perpetual' purchases. That said, I would imagine that if they were to suddenly disable all 'perpetual' versions (C1 or Adobe) they would be lawsuits. Many lawyers use such software too!
Anyhoo, moving on: It seems C1 realize that new cameras/ sensors inevitably come along and your old version will not support those, so when you upgrade your equipment... you'll have to upgrade your Raw software. So the camera makers do the job for them of forcing you to pay through the nose.
New C1 features are not compelling to me, so I've not seen a reason to upgrade yet. My Fuji GFX100, Sony A7R5 and Phase IQ4 systems are all supported in the perpetual I have. Of course inevitably some 'must have' gear will come along, and I'll be forced to 'pony-up' but till then it's: nope! :)
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The value of facts and evidence exists even when you ignore them.
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I am familiar with how Adobe operates. My comments were entirely in relation to Capture One. This is a C1 forum. I'm sure I read something when the C1 subscription option was introduced about cancellation, but I can't find it now. The terms and conditions on the website aren't entirely clear on this point. What would convince me that I misunderstood is a report by someone who has stopped their C1 subscription and reverted to an older perpetual license.
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I am familiar with how Adobe operates. My comments were entirely in relation to Capture One.
Before this (copy and paste):
I have a feeling that in taking out a subscription one of the terms and conditions was that all previous licenses were revoked. If that is correct, it was probably why I decided never take out a subscription.
A feeling isn't evidence. When you have some, specific to a product, please provide it. Again: In the case of Adobe (I will never speak for all) your “Feeling” is incorrect.
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Anyhoo, moving on: It seems C1 realize that new cameras/ sensors inevitably come along and your old version will not support those, so when you upgrade your equipment... you'll have to upgrade your Raw software. So the camera makers do the job for them of forcing you to pay through the nose.
Thank you Adobe for an openly documented raw format:DNG. They never force a software upgrade, use the free DNG converter and their old raw converters, simple.
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Andrew is usually spot on regarding most things, however... My CS6 stand alone Adobe Photoshop that I bought legally and had used for years suddenly wouldn't work. I was told by Adobe that I was not allowed to use it any more, then they said it was fake, even when I produced the original bill of sale. And pointed out that is was listed with all my adobe bought products (LR from ver. 1.0, Premier Elements) in my profile for years. They still didn't back down. I suspect it was because I never took out a subscription, I was still using LR 6.13 stand alone at the time.
Roll forward 18 months and I solely use C1, Affinity, Capcut and Resolve. LR is on one machine and I use it for older stuff that I stupidly converted to .DNG and C1 won't open. Needless to say when they pull the plug on my standalone LR6 I'll be screwed... Thx Adobe..!
Going back to the OP's point, I currently 'buy' C1 every couple of years, here's the main reason:
Lets say you are on a big shoot for client with deep pockets, its a 2 day gig in a studio, day one, your digi-tech tells you 'hey last night C1 brought out an update, give me your camera because tethering via Thunderbolt isn't working properly..!'
This type of sh!t happens, so staying a few versions behind helps with stability, same with computer software, camera firmware, cameras in general actually, cars, phones the lot, let others be the crash test dummies.
I currently run C1 ver. 22 and will 'buy into' the latest version because I think I can now tether and write to card using a Nikon, which is a feature I like, most of the new features from speed edit to speed adjust are aimed at people who shoot with a lot of things on auto (TTL, white balance, face auto AF etc) these things I don't use.
There is something to be said for embracing the advancements in tech and I'm all for it.... when it works and is reliable.
I wonder if Adobe will let me buy/rent CS6 stand alone again for a fee... they need the money..!
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I wonder if Adobe will let me buy/rent CS6 stand alone again for a fee... they need the money..!
They are doing fairly well at least if we look at the data:
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No, you never owned it. You purchased a license to use the software (which could be revoked). It was all spelled out in the EULA, even the very old EULA from Photoshop.
Semantics. For all intent and purpose, you owned the software with a perpetual license versus the annoying subscription model. Yes, it could be revoked, though in the past 30 years I don't recall ever reading about that happening to someone except if they were caught selling the software. (I knew someone in NYC who was doing that. Adobe came down hard, and with good reason.)
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I feel for you. I feel I'm held hostage to the subscription model. I chose NOT to do C1 subscription. I use it periodically for shoots, but I have three other programs I can use to tether. So, if I upgrade to the R5 II, I'll go to my other software. Does C1 do a good job? Generally, though it has limitations. Most of my shoots are 4-6 days long, sometimes split between studio and location, sometimes all location. C1 can't deal with massive quantities of images -- it slows down massively in transfer speeds as the frame count rises, so I can't have one session for a shoot, but do a session for each day. For post-production, I prefer Lightroom so i don't consider C1 a primary program. You may be in that sort of category. At $200/yr, it's not a worthwhile investment for me.
One other note about subscription-based software. The companies are then under the gun to bring out new features to justify the subscription. Frequently, these are half-baked. Case in point, with the latest version of PS 2024, Liquify is broken as are several filter plugins. Those work in v. 2023. They also miraculously work in 2025.
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Semantics.
The value of facts and evidence exists even when you decide to ignore them. The data can be fact-checked and verified, although the author acknowledges that acceptance of facts may be influenced by the reader’s confirmation bias.
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The value of facts and evidence exists even when you decide to ignore them
Sure, but most people knew what he meant. Offering clarification - sure. Getting into a pissing contest over it #sad.
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Sure, but most people knew what he meant. Offering clarification - sure. Getting into a pissing contest over it #sad.
Whats sad is those who presumably have no experience in creating or providing software, thinking they own something they don't and disagreeing with those that have the experience.
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Andrew, you can pull out all the legalese you like. I'm saying from the end user's experience, a perpetual license means you have license to use that product in perpetuity (theoretically). To the common folk, that means we "own" the software for our use, versus the software dying and locked on Day 366. Some subscription models (Topaz for example) enable you to continue to use the software after your subscription expires; you just don't receive updates. Others, like Adobe, you are held for ransom until you pay up.
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Andrew, you can pull out all the legalese you like.
Facts:
https://www.allbusiness.com/the-difference-between-buying-and-licensing-software-928-1.html :
Software is a little different from most other items we purchase in our everyday lives. Have you heard about "licensing" software and are wondering what that means? We'll explain the difference between buying and licensing software.
What does it mean to license software?
When you purchase software, you receive a copy of the software and a license to use it. You don't actually own the software—ownership rights belong to the software company, and you're still limited by the terms and conditions of the license.
I'm saying from the end user's experience, a perpetual license means you have license to use that product in perpetuity (theoretically).
I'm providing the facts, not a theory. Again, you are welcome to believe whatever you wish; it doesn't make it so. One of us has produced software with EULAs, while the other resorts to a belief based on theory.
“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” -Søren Kierkegaard
The legalese you can ignore: https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/ownership#:~:text=Ownership%20is%20the%20legal%20right,such%20as%20intellectual%20property%20rights.
Ownership is the legal right to use, possess, and give away a thing. Ownership can be tangible such as personal property and land, or it can be of intangible things such as intellectual property rights.
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Some subscription models (Topaz for example) enable you to continue to use the software after your subscription expires; you just don't receive updates.
Like Adobe Lightroom Classic! All modules expect Develop & Maps continue to work without a subscription.
https://www.lifeafterphotoshop.com/do-you-lose-all-your-edits-if-you-cancel-your-lightroom-subscription/#:~:text=Lightroom%20Classic%20won't%20stop,Maps%20module%20will%20be%20disabled.
Others, like Adobe, you are held for ransom until you pay up.
The absurd continues to be the desperate last refuge of a pundit without an argument or facts.
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From Adobe's website.
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From Adobe's website.
From Adobe's website:
https://helpx.adobe.com/manage-account/using/cancel-subscription.html#:~:text=Lightroom%20Classic%20images&text=You%20can%20continue%20to%20import,available%20after%20your%20membership%20ends.
What happens when I cancel my Creative Cloud subscription?
You can continue to access all your photos on your local hard drive through Lightroom for the desktop. You can continue to import and organize photos and output your edited photos through Export, Publish, Print, Web, or Slideshow.
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Whats sad is those who presumably have no experience in creating or providing software, thinking they own something they don't and disagreeing with those that have the experience.
LOL OK. Maybe I shouldn't have poked you with the hash tag - sorry.
Like I said we knew what he meant (those of us that have experience developing and delivering software and those that don't).
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Like I said we knew what he meant (those of us that have experience developing and delivering software and those that don't).
We?
I know the facts, and I've provided them, and I'm a software producer for the PS ecosystem.
We don't own the software: full stop.
As the Chinese proverb says: "The first step towards genius is calling things by their proper name."
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No, you never owned it. You purchased a license to use the software (which could be revoked). It was all spelled out in the EULA, even the very old EULA from Photoshop.
If you own a perpetual licence then you get to keep it when you change to subscription. Obviously edits done in later software would not be compatible with the old version.
If you have subscribed for several years then C1 provide an "off ramp" if you want to revert back to perpetual licence. Essentially you can purchase a perpetual licence for a reducing amount of money, depending on how many years you have subscribed. When you have subscribed for 5 years you get a free perpetual licence.
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If you own a perpetual licence then you get to keep it when you change to subscription.
If and until the license is revoked, as is possible with many products, including the Adobe suite, which used activation every time the software was used (and yes, this includes the nonsubscription perpetual version like CS2 or earlier). Again, all spelled out in the EULA. Adobe (and others) have the ability to prevent the perpetual software from being used IF the end user breaks the EULA. So no, you have access to the license, you don't own it or the software.