Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => iPhone and Mobile Photography => Topic started by: mdijb on September 14, 2023, 07:27:27 pm
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I have that "The iPhone 15 does not support ProRAW, however Is that Accurate?
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Not accurate.
https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2023/09/apple-unveils-iphone-15-pro-and-iphone-15-pro-max/
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It seems accurate to me. According to the Apple site:
Image formats:
Iphone 15 & 15 Plus: HEIC, JPG
Iphone 15 Pro & 15 pro Max: HEIG, JPG, DNG (ProRaw)
In any case that is with the standard camera app, it is possible that other apps can take raw images, not sure about Proraw.
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Let's see if third parties app developers can find a way around this limitation. Halide, maybe? (https://twitter.com/halidecamera/status/1701664300253712659)?
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The oddly phrased question:
I have that "The iPhone 15 does not support ProRAW, however Is that Accurate?
The accurate answers:
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Halide has provisions for raw for my old iPhone 12 so indeed, that's very likely too.
Great app.
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I have that "The iPhone 15 does not support ProRAW, however Is that Accurate?
It is both accurate (doesn't support) and not accurate (does support)... depending on your definition of what is is "iPhone 15":
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I am confused about the advertised 7 lenses on the iPhone 15 Pro Max. These have been categorised as Macro, 0.5x (13mm), 1x (24mm), 1.2x (28mm), 1.5x (35mm), 2x (48mm), and 5x (120mm). The main 1x lens is given as being 48MP, though 24MP is also quoted, and the 5x is given as 12MP. I cannot find the MP of the other lenses, so I rang Apple support this morning. I spoke to an advisor and he said he would find out. After hanging on for 20 minutes, he came back to me and said that information was not available, but there would be an announcement in due course!
This matters to me as I print and would probably want to use all the lenses. On my ILC camera, if I change the lens, the MP stays the same as it is dictated by the sensor. I am not at all sure this is the case with the iPhone 15 pro max as the lenses are built in and the 5x is only 12MP. There has been uncertainty in the press about Apple's wording on whether the 1.2, 1.5 etc are crops or not. Whether they are crops or not, I would like to know the pixel dimensions for each. I assume all the lenses produce 4x3 images. If they are crops, why bother when I could crop a 1x, 24mm 48MP to exactly what I want in LR.
It is all very puzzling to me. Am I missing something?
Jonathan
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If I am not mistaken, only 13mm, 24mm, and 120mm are real optical lenses and each has its own sensor. Thus 13mm and 120mm are 12mpx, and only 24mm is 48mpx. Other lenses, namely 28, 35, and 48 are digital zooms.
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... but if you're shooting in ProRAW mode you can get the full 48 MP image for cropping and editing. The camera defaults to a 24 mm focal length, but 28 mm and 35 mm options are also made possible by the large sensor, and you can set any of the three focal lengths as your default.
Collectively, Apple says that the three lenses can shoot in macro, 13 mm, 24 mm, 28 mm, 35 mm, 48 mm, and 77/120 mm modes without using digital zoom.
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/09/apples-new-iphone-15-pro-gets-new-chips-better-cameras-and-a-titanium-frame/
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If the camera uses the large sensor to achieve 28mm and 35mm, then it is cropping, which is basically a digital zoom, no?
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If the camera uses the large sensor to achieve 28mm and 35mm, than it is cropping, which is basically a digital zoom, no?
Correct, the rest is just marketing.
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Useful to read all of this: (scroll down to the Cameras section)
The iPhones 15 Pro (and iPhones 15) (https://daringfireball.net/2023/09/the_iphones_15_pro)
(it's not "just marketing").
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The 28mm and 35mm are digital crops. There are only three physical lenses, with each one related to a physical sensor. Any other combination is a digital crop / zoom.
What is the difference with just cropping in post? Well, they do computational photography after cropping to generate a 24 MP image regardless of the "lens" (virtual or real) used. it does not change the fact that it is a crop.
So, yes, for me it is just marketing
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The 28mm and 35mm are digital crops. There are only three physical lenses, with each one related to a physical sensor. Any other combination is a digital crop / zoom.
What is the difference with just cropping in post? Well, they do computational photography after cropping to generate a 24 MP image regardless of the "lens" (virtual or real) used. it does not change the fact that it is a crop.
So, yes, for me it is just marketing
They are advertising a version 16; I am tempted by these cellphone cameras because after being unable to use real cameras for a while due to now-resolved eye problems, I have discovered that if used with no references to traditional cameras and techniques, but taken as instruments in their own rights, they can be extremely good image makers. I have not used my Nikon stuff since the eyes were fixed… prejudice can hold one back.
For me, the greatest shortcoming has been missing long focal lengths. I know that the more expensive versions of each model offer more choices, but reading the information one can find, it really does look like we are being sold just a wee bit of snake oil along with the genuine stuff. All this said, remember that I no longer have any interest in prints. My stuff if for my website or places such as LuLa. I don’t engage in social media, I suppose because life is too short to spend any time there; if I did, I know that it would become all-consuming, just as LuLa was once allowed to become.
My daughter’s iPhone has a longer lens than mine does, and when she shot my passport pic using it, she had to do it again on a shorter lens because the first shot was ruined by moiré on my plain turquoise sweater. Nice, that.
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They are advertising a version 16; I am tempted by these cellphone cameras because . . . I have discovered that if used with no references to traditional cameras and techniques, but taken as instruments in their own rights, they can be extremely good image makers.
The reviewers at PetaPixel have posted what I thought was a useful review of the photographic capabilities of the iPhone 16 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqTSnI0bfFk).
One thing to keep in mind—and I believe this applies to photographs made with any current cellphone—is that unless you use a software application that collects raw RGB data from the sensor, Apple will apply its computational image processing techniques to every shot. It appears to me that the new JPEG-XL format, which the PetaPixel reviewers tout as including raw data, actually just embeds an Apple ProRaw file in a DNG wrapper; my understanding is that means you are getting a linear DNG with a losslessly-compressed image that has been rendered using Apple's computational manipulations. Although Apple has taken a conservative stance with respect to generative AI features, these are quite different from more traditional computational post-processing. The former can inject or remove features in the capture, but the latter still is modifying the light that reached the sensor to produce a derivative image.
I've played around with raw files on what admittedly are obsolescent iPhones (I'm still toting an iPhone 11 these days) and I have not been favorably impressed. The tiny sensors are noisy, as you would expect them to be, and even current standalone post-processing software can't bring them up to the image quality you would get from even a decent point-and-shoot dedicated camera. But when you let the in-camera software use its computational tricks to do the rendering, it can achieve astonishingly good results. I'll probably pop for an iPhone 16, but use it for photography—as I do my current cellphone—only when I'm not carrying a "real camera."
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Another (worthwhile) iPhone 16 review:
https://www.austinmann.com/trek/iphone-16-pro-camera-review-kenya
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Chris and Manoli: thanks for the links. They cut through a lot of maybe-buyer's suppositions, and one of the interesting takeaways was that the longer lens doesn't have its own sensor. For me, that kinda renders the product far less attractive. I suppose it's the same psychological trick played on buyers with the Leica Q range and its suggestion of different focal lengths... as ever, read the fine print - if you can find it!
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... the longer lens doesn't have its own sensor...
Rob, why would that matter?
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@Rob C
Rob, welcome back - good to see you posting again.
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Rob, why would that matter?
From my understanding of the matter, if the longer lens had its own sensor, then I’d imagine (quite possibly wrongly) that the lens would have access to more pixels from which to form its images, instead of having to work by electronically scaling up from a small part of the image created via a wider lens? In other words, it would arrive at a bigger original thus offering better quality than by scaling up from something small.
As I suggest, this thinking may be totally wrong - I’ve never been an electro-mechanical whizz.
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@Rob C
Rob, welcome back - good to see you posting again.
Thank you, nice to be here right now. Feels odd how many old faces are no more. Did we die off or just gravitate elsewhere? I used to enjoy a blog called Leicaphilia, by a chap called Tim; a wonderful eye for the gritty, everyday public secrets of the reality of what the American broken dream seems to be. On top of that, he had a wonderful way with words, and his writing was as much the attraction as his photography. Sadly, cancer came a-knocking and he has gone on that long road trip up yonder. In the end, everything fades away.
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... the longer lens doesn't have its own sensor...
Rob, I perhaps didn't phrase my question correctly the first time, so here it goes again: what makes you think it doesn't have its own sensor? Can you point out that specific detail in the reviews referenced above?
Technical details aside, I can assure you, from personal experience, that images from iPhone 15 Pro Max that I have are absolutely fabulous, including the telephoto ones.
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This appears to explain that the lens in question does have its own sensor:
https://www.dpreview.com/articles/2668153890/apple-s-iphone-15-and-15-pro-imaging-tech-examined
The iPhone 15 Pro Max 5x Telephoto camera
There’s one sensor that didn’t gain more megapixels: the new telephoto camera found only on the iPhone 15 Pro Max is a 12MP sensor with 1.12µm pixels. This is a 4.5x3.4mm sensor, 25% larger than the 4x3mm one found in the iPhone 14 Pro's telephoto camera, which helps when receiving the light that’s been bounced and focused through the four angles of an internal tetraprism, creating a 120mm equivalent focal range. The lens doesn’t offer an actual zoom mechanism.
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The longer lens does have its own sensor. It is the intermediate focal lenghts (28, 35, 50mm) that are crops of the main camera.
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Slobodan, digital dog and fdisilvestro: thanks for setting me straight re. the sensor and tele lens situation. As I indicated, not my forte at all. I just like things that let me do what I want, and don't drown me in science. (I always liked art more than chemistry and physics, clearly a definite shortcoming these days!)
Truth to tell, and as I have mentioned in the site before, if photography had been digital back when I was in my teens, I'm pretty sure that I would have left it well alone. Nothing I've done digitally has ever given me the buzz of that first darkroom print, in spite of getting some pretty good black/whites from my dead, discontinued and dumped HP A3+ machine. The problem with it, as far as I can analyse my discontent, is that with digital it just feels like painting by numbers, not by gut instinct.
I suppose I'll wait and see what future iPhones come up with...
Slobodan: I remember being highly impressed by a portrait you posted somewhere of a pair of girls in a nightclub. Great atmosphere, and who (in such a scenario) gives a damn about how good a particular lens might or might not be: it's the content that matters most of all.