Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: bdkphoto on January 17, 2007, 12:57:17 pm
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I'd love to hear the collective thoughts on using a Mamiya 35 (645 manual focus) with the zoerk shift on a 5D? Anyone have practical experience using it, and is it sharp when shifted. I'll be using it primarily for arch, and interiors. Any other options for shift with the 28 - 35mm focal range for the 5D (and a reasonable budget) Converting a 28 nikkor pc, and older canon 35 ts etc?
TIA
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I'd love to hear the collective thoughts on using a Mamiya 35 (645 manual focus) with the zoerk shift on a 5D? Anyone have practical experience using it, and is it sharp when shifted. I'll be using it primarily for arch, and interiors. Any other options for shift with the 28 - 35mm focal range for the 5D (and a reasonable budget) Converting a 28 nikkor pc, and older canon 35 ts etc?
TIA
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=96190\")
How about the Cambo X2-Pro?
(http://www.cambo.com/Html/Images/X2-Pro-schss.jpg)
[a href=\"http://www.cambo.com/Html/news/set01/english/internet/ItemHome27.html]http://www.cambo.com/Html/news/set01/engli...ItemHome27.html[/url]
Takes Mamiya 645 lenses and allows for tilt/ swing as well as shift.
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i was using the mamiya 35 with the 1ds2 and the zoerk. although not bad, the pentax 35af is much better.
the cambo dont work for wideangles.
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That's a Schneider 28 mm!
Wider than a 35FA
[attachment=1570:attachment]
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That's a Schneider 28 mm!
Wider than a 35FA
[attachment=1570:attachment]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=96209\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
hm. all i know about is that....
cause you are far away from the camera mount resp. the sensor with the cambo solution....
maybe the 28digitar is soooooo retrofocal that it allows that... so i would be surprised.
i dont doubt that you can mount anything you want, but i cant see how it could focus to infinity, maybe for close ups.
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I played with the cambo x2 yesterday at Calumet here in NYC, and its probably the best solution with that 28 digitar but it costs $4K US for the set up as pictured. That's just too much since I will be moving up to MF Digital soon enough and would like to spend much less. I really don't need the full movements. Shift is enough for now, I'm looking for something a bit better than the Canon 24TS which is OK, but not great.
rehnniar- what is the pentax 35af you are referring to, is it that much better than the Mamiya 35?
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I played with the cambo x2 yesterday at Calumet here in NYC, and its probably the best solution with that 28 digitar but it costs $4K US for the set up as pictured. That's just too much since I will be moving up to MF Digital soon enough and would like to spend much less. I really don't need the full movements. Shift is enough for now, I'm looking for something a bit better than the Canon 24TS which is OK, but not great.
rehnniar- what is the pentax 35af you are referring to, is it that much better than the Mamiya 35?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=96217\")
There is also the [a href=\"http://www.novoflex.de/english/html/adapters.htm]Novoflex adapter[/url] that along with the Mamiya 50mm/f4 shift (http://www.mamiya.co.uk/popup.php?page=Pro+TL+50mm+f%2F4+Shift) can give you a solution that can be later used when you move up to MF.
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I played with the cambo x2 yesterday at Calumet here in NYC, and its probably the best solution with that 28 digitar but it costs $4K US for the set up as pictured. That's just too much since I will be moving up to MF Digital soon enough and would like to spend much less. I really don't need the full movements. Shift is enough for now, I'm looking for something a bit better than the Canon 24TS which is OK, but not great.
rehnniar- what is the pentax 35af you are referring to, is it that much better than the Mamiya 35?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=96217\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
As mentioned above the best of the lot for 35mm shift lenses is the Zoerk adapter with the Pentax 35FA lens. As for wider choices the Olympus 24 PC outperforms the Canon 24TS but you'll
pay $2000 and up for a good copy and then you'll need a good adapter to fit the Canon. Somewhere recently I saw that Mamiya has a 28mm for the 645 system and or ZD camera about to be released, whether this will be adaptable to the Canon bodies remain to be seen. The
Nikkors (35and 28) have some limitations, the Leica 28PC gets funky when shifted. The Contax 35PC is considered one of the best but is hard to find and again you'll pay $1500 and up for good samples. The Olympus 35PC can be had for 400-600 depending on condition and has a good reputation. Sooner or later that 4x5 collecting dust starts to look good again.
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i have both (and used them on the 5D with the zörk) - the manual mamiya 35mm and the af pentax 35mm. the no doubt: the pentax is the way to go. the mamiya gets to soft when shifted. not the pentax. it is one of my sharpest lenses. i doubt that the 28mm schneider is any better. the distortion on the pentax is low but not so symetrical. the mamiya has stronger distortion - but very symetrical (barrel) and therefore easy to correct. but i think, you can shift away with the pentax and in 90% of all images, you dont need to correct the distortion, since its hardly visible.
its such a good lens - I wish I could get it to fit my mamiya ZD.
stefan marquardt
architectural+interior photography
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Hold the phone!
Can anyone confirm that the 28 Digitar is retrofocal enough to clear the mirror box of a 35mm SLR? (at infinity)
I understand that this lens has a reputation as the dog of the Digitar line. Can anyone compare it's performance to say a Nikon 28PC or Canon TSE 24?
Thanks
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=96232\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I only had a few minutes with the cambo x2 and the 28 digitar, but the 28 digitar was designed for use with the X2. It's a copal 0 with no shutter, so it would only work on a bellows type system like the x2. I'm sure it would be much better that the 24ts or the nikkor 28pc.
I'm going to rent it and put it thougha test as soon as its available.
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i have both (and used them on the 5D with the zörk) - the manual mamiya 35mm and the af pentax 35mm. the no doubt: the pentax is the way to go. the mamiya gets to soft when shifted. not the pentax. it is one of my sharpest lenses. i doubt that the 28mm schneider is any better. the distortion on the pentax is low but not so symetrical. the mamiya has stronger distortion - but very symetrical (barrel) and therefore easy to correct. but i think, you can shift away with the pentax and in 90% of all images, you dont need to correct the distortion, since its hardly visible.
its such a good lens - I wish I could get it to fit my mamiya ZD.
stefan marquardt
architectural+interior photography
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=96246\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks Stefan, now I need to find the pentax 35af, is it still a production lens or will I need to source it used?
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i can confirm stephans comments 100%. the pentax is way better and so sharp that you can stitch with ff sensors the double fov, which means you have a 17mm lense whcih is sharp till the edges with a lot of resolution!
the olympus 24 is sharp if shifted, but it has a lot of CA,- i dont know any lense which is worther in this aspect. but its sharp and relative good corrected, two things which you cant say from the canon 24tse, the nikon 28pc ans also not from the schneider 28pc,- which is exactly the same optical construction than the 28digitar ( the 24+35 digitars are different here ). so i wouldnt expect much from the 28digitar in any case.
.
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Thanks Stefan, now I need to find the pentax 35af, is it still a production lens or will I need to source it used?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=96249\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
it´s still in production. allthough - if i remember correct - mamiya stoped delivery to some countries. i got mine from a german onlinshop for about 1.200 euro.
you dont see this lens on ebay very often (probably becouse its so good).
stefan
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I played with the cambo x2 yesterday at Calumet here in NYC, and its probably the best solution with that 28 digitar but it costs $4K US for the set up as pictured. That's just too much since I will be moving up to MF Digital soon enough and would like to spend much less. I really don't need the full movements. Shift is enough for now, I'm looking for something a bit better than the Canon 24TS which is OK, but not great.
rehnniar- what is the pentax 35af you are referring to, is it that much better than the Mamiya 35?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=96217\")
Same here, I've looked around for something better than the Canon TS 24.
I also tried the Cambo X2 pro on photo exhibition here in Stockholm/Sweden in december and it seem mechanically very nice.
I've previously read abit about the Zörk Pro Shift Adaptor [a href=\"http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/accessories/zork.shtml]http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/...ries/zork.shtml[/url]
But I need wideangle so that's not an option..
Then there is the adapters made by Horseman, however I heard that they are mechanically inferior to the Cambo.
I haven't researched Novoflex much, although it's a bit worrying that they've had the same SQL errors showing on their webpage for a long time + some of the product shots of their own products are horribly executed. One would think a company selling photogear would care!
I'm thinking of renting the Cambo X2-pro and try it out with the Schneider Apo Digitar 28 (this is the combination I'm looking to buy) connected to my Canon 1Dmk2.
If anyone has more information about the Cambo X2 pro or the Schneider 28 I'd be happy to hear about it!
/Roberto
www.tabi.se
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Same here, I've looked around for something better than the Canon TS 24.
I also tried the Cambo X2 pro on photo exhibition here in Stockholm/Sweden in december and it seem mechanically very nice.
I've previously read abit about the Zörk Pro Shift Adaptor http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/...ries/zork.shtml (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/accessories/zork.shtml)
But I need wideangle so that's not an option..
Then there is the adapters made by Horseman, however I heard that they are mechanically inferior to the Cambo.
I haven't researched Novoflex much, although it's a bit worrying that they've had the same SQL errors showing on their webpage for a long time + some of the product shots of their own products are horribly executed. One would think a company selling photogear would care!
I'm thinking of renting the Cambo X2-pro and try it out with the Schneider Apo Digitar 28 (this is the combination I'm looking to buy) connected to my Canon 1Dmk2.
If anyone has more information about the Cambo X2 pro or the Schneider 28 I'd be happy to hear about it!
/Roberto
www.tabi.se
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=103510\")
Having made the jump from Canon to Leaf I have to tell you that the optics are the big limitation.
Personally I would think that even a 16Mp back with a really good optic like the Schneider 35XL would beat the Canon with its only so-so glass.
What have I tried?
1) The Mamiya 35 Manual with Cambo Ultima and the adapter for the 1DsII. So similar to the Zoerk idea. Not bad, but limited edge quality and limited movements.
2) The Schneider 28, again with the 1DsII and Ultima 35. A terrible optic, worst distortion I've ever seen. Don't be suckered by this.
3) The 24 TS-E. Personally I would rather use this than 1 or 2. Despite its limitations in resolution it makes up for it in ease of use
4) The Olympus 24 shift lens. Despite looking immensely cool, this had about equivalent performance to the TSE-24.
All in all I spent about £3k trying to get the holy grail of a wide working on the 1DsII.
As they say - pay cheap pay twice.
Now I have experienced
5) Aptus 22 with Schneider 35XL. Very good indeed.
6) Aptus 75 with Schneider 35XL and 47XL both very good.
I have no doubt that its the optical quality of the schneider lens which is key and that an MF solution can be obtained for not much more than some of the Canon options.
eg: Phase or Aptus 16Mp back, possible factory recon. + Horseman wide camera + Schneider 35XL. (There is an H1 back on Ebay, current bid £300.00, only for tethered use and only 10Mp, but I bet it would be a match for a 5D [a href=\"http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PHASE-ONE-H10-DIGITAL-BACK-TO-FIT-HASSLEBLAD-CM_W0QQitemZ130083828996QQihZ003QQcategoryZ15215QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PHASE-ONE-H10-DIGITA...QQcmdZViewItem)[/url]
... there comes a point where yes, you can get the camel to dance on its back legs... but it don't look pretty.
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I have used the Mamiya 35mm F3.5 on both the 1ds and 1ds MKII. I used it with the Zoerk PSA adatper for shifing. On center excellent results with both the 1ds and 1ds MKII, so I wouldn't image the 5D would do any worse. When shifted with the 1ds, the results were OK, but after I moved to the 1ds MKII, the shifts were too soft, so I switched to the Pentax 35mm FA F 3.5.
The Mamiya was also very clear of CA even when shifted, something that the Pentax has a problem with.
You will also need to make sure you are going to clear the mirror with whatever adatper you use. Zoerk makes the T adatper and several other adatpers that will work including the PSA.
Mamiya just announced their 28mm, which I am interested in but I haven't seen much on it yet.
Paul C.
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2) The Schneider 28, again with the 1DsII and Ultima 35. A terrible optic, worst distortion I've ever seen. Don't be suckered by this.
.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103524\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
There are two 28s the old one which was a 35mm lense stick in a copal shutter for 11mp backs and the recently released $5k wonder lense - dont now ifr this can clear a 35mmDSLR mirorobox or not but they are very different
SMM
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Mamiya just announced their 28mm, which I am interested in but I haven't seen much on it yet.
Paul C.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103573\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Assuming the new mamiya 28mm lens will be autofocus it will have no manual aperture ring so will not really be able to be used with a zoerk or other adapter on a 1ds, etc.
Marc
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There are two 28s the old one which was a 35mm lense stick in a copal shutter for 11mp backs and the recently released $5k wonder lense - dont now ifr this can clear a 35mmDSLR mirorobox or not but they are very different
SMM
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=103579\")
The 28 I will be trying is called Schneider Apo Digitar 28 and is a "digital optimized lens" supposedly to be very sharp. It costs around 1800 Euro incl. 25% VAT here in Sweden.
Schneider claims their Digitar line are capable of a resolving power of 90-200 line pairs per millimeter.
See this PDF for more information: [a href=\"http://www.schneideroptics.com/pdfs/photo/Digitar_Manual.pdf]http://www.schneideroptics.com/pdfs/photo/Digitar_Manual.pdf[/url]
/Roberto
www.tabi.se
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The 28 I will be trying is called Schneider Apo Digitar 28 and is a "digital optimized lens" supposedly to be very sharp. It costs around 1800 Euro incl. 25% VAT here in Sweden.
Schneider claims their Digitar line are capable of a resolving power of 90-200 line pairs per millimeter.
See this PDF for more information: http://www.schneideroptics.com/pdfs/photo/Digitar_Manual.pdf (http://www.schneideroptics.com/pdfs/photo/Digitar_Manual.pdf)
/Roberto
www.tabi.se
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103620\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Is it the one with the 60mm image circle ? and at f2.8 ? that lens is very distorted, unless you're at the end of your budget and this is a compromise I would suggest trying something else. I just paid a premium for this lens just to discover that the distortion is really really bad. A few others on this board has commented on it but I tot I should tried it for myself. Now I echo their views.
cheers
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The 28 I will be trying is called Schneider Apo Digitar 28 and is a "digital optimized lens" supposedly to be very sharp. It costs around 1800 Euro incl. 25% VAT here in Sweden.
Schneider claims their Digitar line are capable of a resolving power of 90-200 line pairs per millimeter.
See this PDF for more information: http://www.schneideroptics.com/pdfs/photo/Digitar_Manual.pdf (http://www.schneideroptics.com/pdfs/photo/Digitar_Manual.pdf)
/Roberto
www.tabi.se
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=103620\")
Yes, its fantastically sharp, I agree. Unfortunately it makes any straight line look like a banana. I shot a building head on and even straight lines near the center were not straight. If you then shift the lens you see that the lens has moustache distortion, so its practically impossible to correct afterwards in software (at least not within a commercially viable amount of time).
Here's the article that made me think of buying this outfit. [a href=\"http://www.peimag.com/pdf/pei03/pei1112_03/venerpei1112_03.pdf]article on 28mm and Cambo[/url]. The main image on the home page has plenty of juicy distortion, cut it out and put some guides on in photoshop and see for yourself.
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For grins I played with the image. Some of the walls are at a slight angle (highlighted with the blue lines) and the left wall has an arc to it (the red plane). I think there is a slight barrel distortion, but some of the weirdness may be the geometry of the building rather than the lens.
(http://www.pebbleplace.com/Ebay/Distortion.jpg)
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Is it the one with the 60mm image circle ? and at f2.8 ? that lens is very distorted, unless you're at the end of your budget and this is a compromise I would suggest trying something else. I just paid a premium for this lens just to discover that the distortion is really really bad. A few others on this board has commented on it but I tot I should tried it for myself. Now I echo their views.
cheers
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=103642\")
I'm not sure. I think it's this one:
[a href=\"http://www.schneideroptics.com/ecommerce/CatalogItemDetail.aspx?CID=1325&IID=1920]http://www.schneideroptics.com/ecommerce/C...D=1325&IID=1920[/url]
I was worried about the distortion, too bad it's not good...
May I ask what lens you would recommend instead? Preferable one that works with the Cambo X2-pro.
Free1000 recommended the Schneider 35XL, not sure if it can be made to work on the Cambo..
On the resellers site they say the following lenses work with it:
Schneider ApoDigitar 28, 72, 80, 90, 100, 120, och 150 mm, Rodenstock ApoSironar Digital 90, 105, 135 och 150 mm.
Here the Apo Digitar 28 being the only wide one..
And with some special adapters one can use Hasselblad CF, Mamiya 645 Pro and Mamiya RB/RZ lenses.
Which seems the way to go if I can not use the Schneider 35..
/Roberto
www.tabi.se
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If you can try the 28 Schneider before buying there is no risk except for your time. I can't back up my opinion with test shots because I accidentally deleted them. Mine were much more badly distorted than the image in that article.
Its really difficult to get a shiftable 28mm that is a retrofocus lens and therefore has a long enough distance from the rear element to the sensor plane such that it can be usefully mounted on a view camera.
The Rodenstock 28HR has quite a long distance hence it can be used on viewcams (theoretically) but then its such an expensive solution.
The Schneider 35XL might just work but I kind of doubt it. Its not retrofocus and needs to be too close to the sensor.
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Roberto
If you can try the 28 Schneider before buying there is no risk except for your time. I can't back up my opinion with test shots because I accidentally deleted them. Mine were much more badly distorted than the image in that article.
Its really difficult to get a shiftable 28mm that is a retrofocus lens and therefore has a long enough distance from the rear element to the sensor plane such that it can be usefully mounted on a view camera.
The Rodenstock 28HR has quite a long distance hence it can be used on viewcams (theoretically) but then its such an expensive solution.
The Schneider 35XL might just work but I kind of doubt it. Its not retrofocus and needs to be too close to the sensor.
I think that these 35mm based VC's can work, but practically I found that the 35mm Mamiya was the shortest practical lens length. Overall, for longer lenses say 85 and up, the location of the sensor buried within the mirror box can hamper movements.
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Yes, its fantastically sharp, I agree. Unfortunately it makes any straight line look like a banana. I shot a building head on and even straight lines near the center were not straight. If you then shift the lens you see that the lens has moustache distortion, so its practically impossible to correct afterwards in software (at least not within a commercially viable amount of time).
Here's the article that made me think of buying this outfit. article on 28mm and Cambo (http://www.peimag.com/pdf/pei03/pei1112_03/venerpei1112_03.pdf). The main image on the home page has plenty of juicy distortion, cut it out and put some guides on in photoshop and see for yourself.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=103674\")
Thanks for the link to the article.
This is bad news.. I really want a lens with as little distortion as possible, it's worth paying more to avoid doing complex distortion correction.
I agree with John Black that the picture from the article might not show what you have experienced.
I rather trust someone saying a lens is bad (meaning they probably are picky, which I am) than someone saying it's good (and then finding out they where not picky!) :-)
I still want to try and see if I can avoid going the MF road as you chose to do and find a lens that works fine with the Cambo X2 pro.
Is this the 35 mm you mentioned?
[a href=\"http://www.schneideroptics.com/ecommerce/CatalogItemDetail.aspx?CID=1325&IID=1886]http://www.schneideroptics.com/ecommerce/C...D=1325&IID=1886[/url]
It doesn't say XL anywhere though..
And where I find their XL series (large format) there is only a 38 mm not a 35mm.
http://www.schneideroptics.com/ecommerce/C...ay.aspx?CID=168 (http://www.schneideroptics.com/ecommerce/CatalogSubCategoryDisplay.aspx?CID=168)
Would be good to know the exact one (with product#) so that I can check with the reseller here in Sweden.
Thanx again for you input!
/Roberto
www.tabi.se
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Roberto
If you can try the 28 Schneider before buying there is no risk except for your time. I can't back up my opinion with test shots because I accidentally deleted them. Mine were much more badly distorted than the image in that article.
Its really difficult to get a shiftable 28mm that is a retrofocus lens and therefore has a long enough distance from the rear element to the sensor plane such that it can be usefully mounted on a view camera.
The Rodenstock 28HR has quite a long distance hence it can be used on viewcams (theoretically) but then its such an expensive solution.
The Schneider 35XL might just work but I kind of doubt it. Its not retrofocus and needs to be too close to the sensor.
I think that these 35mm based VC's can work, but practically I found that the 35mm Mamiya was the shortest practical lens length. Overall, for longer lenses say 85 and up, the location of the sensor buried within the mirror box can hamper movements.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=103709\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hello again free1000,
Maybe I should try the 28 and hope that you had a bad copy, which also is a bit worrying if their production quality is not stable! But this can be solved then.
Yes, I was afraid that the 35XL is not a retrofocus, it seems that the 28 is among the few that are...
How expensive is the Rodenstock 28HR, I saw a figure of $5000 somewhere is this correct?
/Roberto
www.tabi.se
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Hello again free1000,
Maybe I should try the 28 and hope that you had a bad copy, which also is a bit worrying if their production quality is not stable! But this can be solved then.
Yes, I was afraid that the 35XL is not a retrofocus, it seems that the 28 is among the few that are...
How expensive is the Rodenstock 28HR, I saw a figure of $5000 somewhere is this correct?
/Roberto
www.tabi.se
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=103712\")
Rodenstock is $4999 at B&H [a href=\"http://www.bhphotovideo.com]http://www.bhphotovideo.com[/url]
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There isn't a ghost of a chance of being able to use any sub-100mm Rodenstock HR on a DSLR body. By the time you subtract the rear elements' depth from the flange distance you're left with less than 20mm in most cases, which is at least 25mm too short for the Canon! You could use it as a stitchable 28mm macro, I guess . . .
As previous posters have confirmed, the Pentax FA35 is by far the best option for DSLR shooters at present. The only upgrade path is an MF back and a system with movements to mount the Rodenstock HRs or Apo Digitars.
As summary of all available stitching methods was recently updated here:
http://www.stitchpix.com (http://www.stitchpix.com)
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There is also this http://www.mirex-adapter.de/ (http://www.mirex-adapter.de/)
I've been toying with the idea of getting a hasselblad shift convertor so I can shift those lenses on my dslr.