Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Digital Black & White => Topic started by: John MacLean on December 11, 2022, 05:20:49 pm
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I'm reprinting files that previously printed absolutely neutral and now there is a significant cyan/green shift. I tried a couple prints with manual color wheel settings. First was Horizontal and Vertical both (+5). That was better. Then I did a H +10, V 0. Even better, but warmer than neutral and still off. I just want the true neutral back.
Did several nozzle checks. It comes out perfect every time. Also printed Andrew Rodney’s Printer Test File in color just to make sure every ink color was firing at the right amounts. It looked normal. I had some old VLM and VM ink carts that just started showing low warnings. I replaced those with new carts. No affect on color shift.
Is this an Epson/Ventura incompatibility that anyone has experienced?
Thank you,
John
Epson Stylus Pro 9900
Driver version 12.62
Printer Options>
Color Matching> Epson Color Controls
Printer Settings:> Basic> Print Mode: Advanced B&W Photo - Color Toning: Neutral
Printer Settings> Advanced Color Settings - Color Toning: Neutral, Tone: Darker
Mac Studio - Ventura 13.0.1
Lightroom Classic 12.0.1
Print> Print Job> Color Management> Profile: Managed by Printer
Print on left is current “Neutral” setting in AWB. Print behind/middle was printed a year ago that is correct, and print on right is adjusted in AWB to Horizontal +10 to try and get closer to neutral.
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Wow! that's a seriously messed up ABW.
Might be worth printing on a different CPU, Windows if possible, just to separate out the software from the printer. And just a neutral gradient to save on paper and ink.
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IIRC, discrepancies can arises because ICC profiles are based on RGB driver not Epson's ABW driver.
Not my area of experience but could this be a solution ?
https://www.digitalblackandwhite.co.uk/downloads/paper-grey-curves/
Cue: Andrew Rodney ...
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Cue: Andrew Rodney ...
After the gofundme for ink and paper <g>.
I'm on the latest release of Photoshop and macOS Ventura (and I HATE the new printer GUI they provided; awful).
Setup a test with ABW, just using the 'neutral' settings for that mode. Epson 3880 (have a P800 too but back to the Cue remark <g>). Figured I'd try the oldest printer/driver.
Print has a decidedly magenta color cast. Not what I'd consider even close to neutral!
Tried using Epson Print Layout v 1.5.5 (same settings for ABW). Output is identical (and bad).
I'll contact the few people still inside Epson that may be there but I don't know what else to suggest.
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After the gofundme for ink and paper <g>.
I'm on the latest release of Photoshop and macOS Ventura (and I HATE the new printer GUI they provided; awful).
Setup a test with ABW, just using the 'neutral' settings for that mode. Epson 3880 (have a P800 too but back to the Cue remark <g>). Figured I'd try the oldest printer/driver.
Print has a decidedly magenta color cast. Not what I'd consider even close to neutral!
Tried using Epson Print Layout v 1.5.5 (same settings for ABW). Output is identical (and bad).
I'll contact the few people still inside Epson that may be there but I don't know what else to suggest.
I appreciate it Andrew. I look forward to your response.
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Epson reached out. They are aware of this post.
I did some tests on my P800. ABW does work as it should. But there's a major caveat and more testing is in order.
In Photoshop, setting up the Ventura and driver is super wonky and buggy! It seems some items that should be selected, after being selected do not stick or options in the driver can't be selected.
First off, check Color Matching! Since ABW is using "Epson Color Controls", that radio button should automatically be selected and grayed out. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. You simply must check every time! This graying out is all an Apple API Epson/Adobe has used for years, it usually works. In this case, I'd blame Apple!
Next, I've seen cases where I can't select ABW from the dropdown option. It is grayed out (WTF!). If i go back into Color Matching and have the option to check the radio buttons, toggle and after the correct selection (Epson Color Controls), ABW can now be accessed.
Third, if I setup everything correctly, click "Save" and go back into Photoshop's print dialog, then check again, well at least once, ABW didn't stick despite selecting "Save". It's all a hot mess!
I need to try this all again with the 3880, making sure before actually clicking on the final "Print" button, all is setup and sticking. You guys should as well.
At that point, I can try Epson Print Layout. But it is very possible, the issues in Photoshop affect EPL as well.
At this point, I have to 'blame' Apple; all was working prior to Ventura. I'm biased. Their new print GUI is simply amazingly awful.
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Can't get the 3880 to work. I can't get ABW in the dropdown to stick.
Can get the P800 to work. It will stick if the stars align, I pick the right options in the right order, click Save then go back and ensure, before printing, everything is set.
So anyone here with issues, Epson is listening. We need to know if on your printers with Ventura, does the correct options for ABW stick just prior to clicking "Print" or not.
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On my P800, ABW works reliably printing ABW using Epson Print Layout (free). So John, download this and give it a try. There are actually some advantages like soft proofing in this product that you don't get elsewhere. I don't see them listing the 9900 but they don't list the 3880 yet it does run.
https://epson.com/epson-print-layout
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On my P800, ABW works reliably printing ABW using Epson Print Layout (free). So John, download this and give it a try. There are actually some advantages like soft proofing in this product that you don't get elsewhere. I don't see them listing the 9900 but they don't list the 3880 yet it does run.
https://epson.com/epson-print-layout
Thanks for all your investigating and testing. Yes I concur with your dissatisfied assessment of Apple's work and I'm experiencing the same unsticky hot mess in the print dialog. So I'm guessing it's just printing the file as color inks, but with the color toning wheel active, presumably with Printer Manages Color behavior. I wonder what would happen running a color image thru ABW?
I downloaded EPL a week or so ago, but haven't tried it. That's next. My workflow is to print directly from DNG's in LR. I assume I'll need to convert the raw file first. RTFM I know!
I hope that Epson and Apple can sort this out sooner than later as I've got some paid fine art prints to make for my client.
Thanks again!
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It's odd that ABW can't stick, I end up seeing Epson Color but get a bit of both: an ugly and not neutral “grayscale” print. It's messed up!
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I just tried printing a concert ticket on my Epson WF-2540 and this was one of the setting boxes. HA!
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I just tried printing a concert ticket on my Epson WF-2540 and this was one of the setting boxes. HA!
After a few drinks or Vapes, it should appear OK.... ;)
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IIRC, discrepancies can arises because ICC profiles are based on RGB driver not Epson's ABW driver.
That is an interesting point - what would be the right approach regarding using ICC profiles with the black and white mode of Epson or Canon printers? So far I would have assumed that the printer driver deals with that and applies the ICC profile in whatever manner makes sense with the black and white mode.
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Epson's ABW is a black box. It requires Printer Manages Color. There's no role for ICC profiles.
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Epson's ABW is a black box. It requires Printer Manages Color. There's no role for ICC profiles.
For ICC, read RGB/Lab colour data.
ABW (Advanced Black and White) is something of a misnomer, over 15 years old and has always needed printer specific grey curves. Not really 'fine art' and def not high end. It was first step to printing B&W images bypassing the colour print pipeline. Profiling has come on a long way since the early days and reading Eric Chan from 2008 , you can see how little has changed in the 'black box'.
https://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/bwcurves.html
Reading through you'll see that Eric Chan has been building and using ICC profiles since 2007, at least he was still in 2010.
https://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/abwprofiles.html
Add to the above that ABW uses a vague 'media type' instead of an accurate profile and monitor calibration is based on ICC profiles (unless you're using one of the latest Macs and/or a Studio or Pro XDR display which use built-in reference modes rather than colour profiles) You've got, today in 2022, a fine recipe for long nights and aspirin <g>
As for the other dialog box and non-retained settings issues seems evident that Ventura has introduced incompatibilities with the ABW driver. Time for an Epson ABW upgrade ?
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It's odd that ABW can't stick, I end up seeing Epson Color but get a bit of both: an ugly and not neutral “grayscale” print. It's messed up!
I updated Ventura and the Adobe apps yesterday. No luck. Then tried EPL same color cast.
But while I was updating the apps on my late dad's iMac I remembered it's on Monterey 12.6.1, so I'm going to try that later today when I get a moment.
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I just ran ABW on my dad's iMac (Monterey 12.6.1) and I'm getting the same non-neutral result. So now I don't think it's an OS issue. Does this put the ball back in Epson's court? If so, I'd like to request a pack of (S041405) to make up for all my test ink and paper waste. Ha!
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I just ran ABW on my dad's iMac (Monterey 12.6.1) and I'm getting the same non-neutral result. So now I don't think it's an OS issue. Does this put the ball back in Epson's court? If so, I'd like to request a pack of (S041405) to make up for all my test ink and paper waste. Ha!
I don't know; ABW worked for me prior to Ventura and still kind of does, on one and only one of my two printers that support it. When the correct settings stick.
What I found out this week from my sources at Epson is this:
Seiko Epson Corp, technically lists in tech notes the following products not listed on our www.epson.com/epsonprintlayout landing page:
Stylus Photo R1800
Stylus Photo R2400
Stylus Photo R1900
Stylus Photo R2880
Stylus Photo R3000
Stylus Pro 3800
Stylus Pro 3880
According to tech notes, there is no support for older Stylus Pro printers like 9900. So that may be your issue here.
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I don't know; ABW worked for me prior to Ventura and still kind of does, on one and only one of my two printers that support it. When the correct settings stick.
What I found out this week from my sources at Epson is this:
Seiko Epson Corp, technically lists in tech notes the following products not listed on our www.epson.com/epsonprintlayout landing page:
Stylus Photo R1800
Stylus Photo R2400
Stylus Photo R1900
Stylus Photo R2880
Stylus Photo R3000
Stylus Pro 3800
Stylus Pro 3880
According to tech notes, there is no support for older Stylus Pro printers like 9900. So that may be your issue here.
Major bummer. I really don't want to have to upgrade to a new 44" printer.
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Just saw this.For Gods sake why aren’t you using QTR! Always been vastly superior to Almost Black and White and still is.
It’s super easy and you can go as precise as you need to go with custom linearization, but stock curves for most papers are great. Also great repeatable split-tone control.
It even supports the P9000 now. Only for Epson printers though. I still use it on a 9890 and a 3880 flawlessly.
It’s totally free to test , a share ware .
http://www.quadtonerip.com/html/QTRoverview.html
John
Major bummer. I really don't want to have to upgrade to a new 44" printer.
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I'm with Deanwork. I have tried ABW many times over the years and always come back to QTR. I did find it interesting that with the Epson Print Layout software one can "soft proof" in ABW, removing some of the "black box" aspect to using it. I used the "canned" settings in QTR since I do not have a spectro and am happy with the tonalities I get with the basic settings. QTR was one of the best $50 I've spent in some time.
I was introduced to it many years ago by a friend and it has been my goto for black and white since. I recently bought an Epson P900 after Roy Harrington, QTR's author, made QTR compatible with both matte and glossy paper. I printed the same image on QTR and with ABW. While it is clear they can't be matched exactly, QTR produced better shadow tones. I used Keith Cooper's black and white test image.
Good luck with the printing.
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Hi deanwork and Eric Brody,
I'm finally getting around to trying QTR (default settings) through Lightroom Classic and I'm still plagued with a green cast. Is this normal? The background image was Epson ABW when it worked, and the smaller print in front is the new QTR print I just made.
TIA,
John
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No, it’s not normal. I have used QTR for about 17 years and have not once observed a greenish cast on any of say 10 different Epson printers with oem inks. I’m not using Epson for bw with oem inks now so I can’t test this.
I have heard situations where people had bad inks or inks that settled and needed to be shaken. But apparently others are seeing this same situation.
You do need to use Print Tool software though in order to turn off color management of Photoshop that hosts QTR. It’s great and easy download that . Like for making icc profiles, it can’t be color managed by Adobe.
Hi deanwork and Eric Brody,
I'm finally getting around to trying QTR (default settings) through Lightroom Classic and I'm still plagued with a green cast. Is this normal? The background image was Epson ABW when it worked, and the smaller print in front is the new QTR print I just made.
TIA,
John
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No, it’s not normal. I have used QTR for about 17 years and have not once observed a greenish cast on any of say 10 different Epson printers with oem inks. I’m not using Epson for bw with oem inks now so I can’t test this.
I have heard situations where people had bad inks or inks that settled and needed to be shaken. But apparently others are seeing this same situation.
You do need to use Print Tool software though in order to turn off color management of Photoshop that hosts QTR. It’s great and easy download that . Like for making icc profiles, it can’t be color managed by Adobe.
Thanks for your reply. I was under the impression that I could just print out of Lightroom Classic? Do I need to use Print-Tool if I use LRC?
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Yes, otherwise you can’t turn color management off.
Thanks for your reply. I was under the impression that I could just print out of Lightroom Classic? Do I need to use Print-Tool if I use LRC?
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I have recently updated to Sonoma and decided to give it a try again today. It's actually working perfectly now. So I guess the glitch was Apple's fault. I tried to get the QuadtoneRIP to work many months ago, but I wasn't successful. This will suit my needs fine, just as it did before. Thanks all.