Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Kit-V on January 17, 2021, 01:18:27 pm
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When receiving prints back from the print lab, very often the prints are warmer in appearance than the soft proofed screen version. I can appreciate the complexity of color management, so I suspect that there might be multiple causal factors involved. My display is calibrated & the ambient lighting in the room where I evaluate the prints is (I believe) about 5,000K. I think that I might be asking a loaded question here, but....... I would appreciate your recommendations that might lead to a better screen-to-print match.
Thank you kindly.
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Find out who's in charge of color management at your lab-of-choice, see what they have to say about what you're seeing. Without looking over your shoulders - both of you - it's gonna be really hard to diagnose this by remote.
Simplest would be a mismatch between your preferred colorspace and what they take as standard, without doing a conversion first on the files you submit. Your lab's tech support folks should be able to help.
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My display is calibrated & the ambient lighting in the room where I evaluate the prints is (I believe) about 5,000K.
Thank you kindly.
Try this.
Open a white (255,255,255) document covering your screen.
Soft proof using their profile (with simulate paper white set to ON).
Take a blank sheet of the paper in question next to your screen (under your 5000K viewing light) and calibrate by eye the white point of the screen to come as close as possible to the paper, then profile the display.
(All this assuming you are editing your images under softproofing with their profile).
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Find out who's in charge of color management at your lab-of-choice, see what they have to say about what you're seeing. Without looking over your shoulders - both of you - it's gonna be really hard to diagnose this by remote.
Simplest would be a mismatch between your preferred colorspace and what they take as standard, without doing a conversion first on the files you submit. Your lab's tech support folks should be able to help.
I plan to call the lab tomorrow. Thank you.
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Try this.
Open a white (255,255,255) document covering your screen.
Soft proof using their profile (with simulate paper white set to ON).
Take a blank sheet of the paper in question next to your screen (under your 5000K viewing light) and calibrate by eye the white point of the screen to come as close as possible to the paper, then profile the display.
(All this assuming you are editing your images under softproofing with their profile).
Forgive my ignorance here, but if I might ask a basic question.......
1. How might I open a white document in Lightroom Classic & be assured that it is 255, 255, 255? As an alternative, might I not use any blank, white piece of paper to achieve the same objective?
2. In order to "calibrate by eye the white point of the screen to come as close as possible to the paper", does this suggest adjusting the brightness of the screen itself?
3. Once I achieve a reasonable match between the screen & the paper, how will I know what the new white point is so that I can profile the display to that target?
Again, forgive me if my questions indicate my lack of knowledge regarding color management. Thank you for your help.
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Forgive my ignorance here, but if I might ask a basic question.......
1. How might I open a white document in Lightroom Classic & be assured that it is 255, 255, 255? As an alternative, might I not use any blank, white piece of paper to achieve the same objective?
2. In order to "calibrate by eye the white point of the screen to come as close as possible to the paper", does this suggest adjusting the brightness of the screen itself?
3. Once I achieve a reasonable match between the screen & the paper, how will I know what the new white point is so that I can profile the display to that target?
Again, forgive me if my questions indicate my lack of knowledge regarding color management. Thank you for your help.
1. regular white copy paper has a lot of OBAs in it causing it to have a significant blue cast.
2. calibrating by eye never works (at least it never worked for me). Always use a proper monitor calibrator.
BTW, did you use the icc profile from the lab. If not it's unlikely you'll ever a properly calibrated print.
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Forgive my ignorance here, but if I might ask a basic question.......
1. How might I open a white document in Lightroom Classic & be assured that it is 255, 255, 255? As an alternative, might I not use any blank, white piece of paper to achieve the same objective?
2. In order to "calibrate by eye the white point of the screen to come as close as possible to the paper", does this suggest adjusting the brightness of the screen itself?
3. Once I achieve a reasonable match between the screen & the paper, how will I know what the new white point is so that I can profile the display to that target?
Again, forgive me if my questions indicate my lack of knowledge regarding color management. Thank you for your help.
1. If your monitor resolution is 1920X1080 make a white document in Photoshop 1920X1080 pixels and open it in LR. The paper must be the paper you are going to print on not any other paper. Open it in Develop module. Hit "S" to enable softproofing and choose the icc profile you are going to use for print. Go to full screen mode.
2. Yes adjust the brightness of the screen and most importantly the color temperature of the screen (R,G,B) to match the white of the paper.
3. You don't have to know. Tell the calibration program to calibrate to the native white point. That is the point of this exercise after all.
Alternatively to the above method if you don't want to go by eye. Calibrate for example to 6000K and check, then to 5800K and check, then to 5600K and check until you match your print with the screen as close as possible.
Hope that helps.
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When receiving prints back from the print lab, very often the prints are warmer in appearance than the soft proofed screen version. I can appreciate the complexity of color management, so I suspect that there might be multiple causal factors involved. My display is calibrated & the ambient lighting in the room where I evaluate the prints is (I believe) about 5,000K. I think that I might be asking a loaded question here, but....... I would appreciate your recommendations that might lead to a better screen-to-print match.
Thank you kindly.
What is the value you monitor Whitepoint in Kelvin?
If you refer to the image as show on ypur monitor, and ypur monitor Whitepoint is higer than your light the print will appear warmer.
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Mearussi: Yes, I did use the printer/profile provided to me by the lab.
Panagiotis: For comparison, I cannot use the same paper that the image will be printed on since that paper is used by the print lab.
JRSmit: My display's white point is calibrated to D65 (6500K). So you are suggesting that if the ambient lighting is 5000K, then the resulting print will appear warmer. Correct? If so, that implies that I should re-calibrate my display to a white point of D50. Correct?
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Mearussi: Yes, I did use the printer/profile provided to me by the lab.
Panagiotis: For comparison, I cannot use the same paper that the image will be printed on since that paper is used by the print lab.
JRSmit: My display's white point is calibrated to D65 (6500K). So you are suggesting that if the ambient lighting is 5000K, then the resulting print will appear warmer. Correct? If so, that implies that I should re-calibrate my display to a white point of D50. Correct?
The only way then is to lower the white point of your display until it matches your printed image as close as possible. The "correct" kelvin number is not necessarily the same as your lights (5000K). You may find that in order to match your 5000K lights you have to set the white point of your display at 5500K or something else. You will have to try different settings.
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You're getting good advice from the others who've chimed in on this thread.
And ask your lab rep for a piece of blank, fresh print stock they use to print your work upon for your workplace calibration efforts.
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The only way then is to lower the white point of your display until it matches your printed image as close as possible. The "correct" kelvin number is not necessarily the same as your lights (5000K). You may find that in order to match your 5000K lights you have to set the white point of your display at 5500K or something else. You will have to try different settings.
Your advice seems quite reasonable. Time for a bit of experimentation. Thank you!
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You're getting good advice from the others who've chimed in on this thread.
And ask your lab rep for a piece of blank, fresh print stock they use to print your work upon for your workplace calibration efforts.
Good suggestion! I should have thought of that. So, at this point, it seems that the consensus is to adjust my display's white point until there is a good match between the soft proofed image on the screen & the actual print itself.
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As I experiment with different white point settings, I think I am getting closer to a better color temperature match between screen & print.
One other question, if I may......if the prints that I get back from the lab are darker than the screen image, am I correct in assuming that I need to decrease the screen brightness? If so, do you suggest that I decrease the luminance (currently set at 120 cd/m2) through display calibration or manually lower the screen brightness using the brightness buttons on the display?
Thank you kindly.
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As I experiment with different white point settings, I think I am getting closer to a better color temperature match between screen & print.
One other question, if I may......if the prints that I get back from the lab are darker than the screen image, am I correct in assuming that I need to decrease the screen brightness? If so, do you suggest that I decrease the luminance (currently set at 120 cd/m2) through display calibration or manually lower the screen brightness using the brightness buttons on the display?
Thank you kindly.
120 cd seems a bit bright. I have mine set at 80.
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120 cd seems a bit bright. I have mine set at 80.
Sorry but: No.
Depending on the display, it will not be able to hit that low a value natively too which isn't good.
The right cd/m2 value is the one that produces a match of display and print viewing conditions next to the display. YMMV. I drive mine at 150cd/m2m NOT too bight, just right. For me and my viewing booth.
The idea that some cd/m2 is 'right' or wrong without taking the viewing condition of the print into play is as bad as attempting one hand clapping.
An illustration:
(http://digitaldog.net/files/Print_to_Screen_Matching.jpg)
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I agree, Andrew. As to my other question: Do you suggest that I decrease the luminance (currently set at 120 cd/m2) through display calibration or manually lower the screen brightness using the brightness buttons on the display?
Thank you.
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As to my other question: Do you suggest that I decrease the luminance (currently set at 120 cd/m2) through display calibration or manually lower the screen brightness using the brightness buttons on the display?
Thank you.
You should be able to control either but controlling the Cd/M2 should provide the necessary precise control. But if too low on some systems may provide banding if the lower level is achieved non natively.
On my Spectraview, I can go as low as 65 Cd/M2 natively but few can do so.
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In my quest to achieve a better screen-to-print match (as far as brightness is concerned), I sent 3 sets of images to the lab to be printed with the following display calibrations:
Set #1: D65, 120 cd/m2
Set #2: D65, 100 cd/m2
Set #3: D65, 80 cd/m2.
As expected, the lower the cd/m2 level, the brighter the prints. However, the color temperature of the prints also got warmer without changing the white point. This seems odd since I assumed that the color temperature is affected my changing the white point. Am I missing something here? Thank you for your help and patience.
Kit
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In my quest to achieve a better screen-to-print match (as far as brightness is concerned), I sent 3 sets of images to the lab to be printed with the following display calibrations:
Set #1: D65, 120 cd/m2
Set #2: D65, 100 cd/m2
Set #3: D65, 80 cd/m2.
As expected, the lower the cd/m2 level, the brighter the prints.
Doesn't make sense to me as written. The adjustments have zero bearing on the numbers sent to the printer. You mean you adjusted each image based on those settings and had them printed and the one you adjusted based on 80 cd/m2 appears brighter?
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Yes, that is correct. With the screen luminance set at 120cd/m2, I adjusted the images to my satisfaction. When the prints returned from the lab, they were somewhat darker than the screen image in. After re-calibrating the display to 80 cd/m2 & re-ajusting the images in Lightroom, the returned prints were brighter & a better match to my screen images. Simultaneously, however, the prints were also clearly "warmer" without any changes to the white point. My initial reaction was to increase the white point to cool the color temperature of the prints. However, I think that I recall reading in Andrew's book (or in an X-Rite article written by him) that he recommends that the white point be left at D65. I would value some thoughts on this.
Thank you for your help & your patience.
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Andrew: I would appreciate your input to my last response above. Thank you so much.
Kit-V
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Warmer, it's the CCT value you need to adjust. There is no 'right value' expect the value that produces a match.
As to the brightness, I'm not sure what your test, adjusting the image based upon a cd/m2 setting does useful. I'd set the cd/m2 value based on the print viewing conditions next to the display:
(http://digitaldog.net/files/Print_to_Screen_Matching.jpg)
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Thank you, Andrew. Raising the CCT above D65 (my current setting) sounds logical in an effort to reduce the "warmth" of the print compared to the on-screen soft proofed version. My only reservation has been that I vaguely recall that you had advised against changing the CCT value from D65 (the so-called industry standard). But, I might be mistaken.
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It's not an “industry standard” there is only one object that can produce this that is 93 million miles away, that is based on the average of many measurements and there is no reason to target such a value if it doesn't provide a match to the print.
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I concur, but deferred my decision on re-calibrating based on your input. Color management is not my forte. Now if you want to discuss classic cocktails, I can hold my ground. :-)
Thank you kindly.
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Now if you want to discuss classic cocktails, I can hold my ground. :-)
Sorry, I can't drink Alcohol any longer, as I get massive headaches.
Now Vaping cannabis; I'm all ears. ;D
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Sounds like a PM to me. If that option is available on LuLa, let me know. There is an alternative life after color management. ;)
Enjoy the evening!
Kit