Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Steve Hendrix on December 10, 2020, 09:29:47 am
-
We've had about a week or so to spend some time with the Phase One Feature Update 8 and we've put some thoughts into a few articles:
https://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one-feature-update-8-tested-features-procedures-caveats/ (https://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one-feature-update-8-tested-features-procedures-caveats/)
https://www.captureintegration.com/perspective-on-the-phase-one-feature-update-8-firmware/ (https://www.captureintegration.com/perspective-on-the-phase-one-feature-update-8-firmware/)
Steve Hendrix/CI
-
We've had about a week or so to spend some time with the Phase One Feature Update 8 and we've put some thoughts into a few articles:
https://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one-feature-update-8-tested-features-procedures-caveats/ (https://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one-feature-update-8-tested-features-procedures-caveats/)
https://www.captureintegration.com/perspective-on-the-phase-one-feature-update-8-firmware/ (https://www.captureintegration.com/perspective-on-the-phase-one-feature-update-8-firmware/)
Steve Hendrix/CI
Thanks, Steve
Great information.
Regards,
Ben
-
Thank you for the info, Steve
IMHO, P1's documentation on the new release leaves a lot to be desired. I think the documentation only includes a brief summary of the features included in the release and how to install the firmware. There is nothing that I can see about how to use the ETTR feature.
So, can you help, please?
Does the ETTR feature work on non-XT technical cameras?
If it does, how do you turn it on and off?
What does it produce to show (or how do you know) what settings should be used to get the optimum ETTR exposure?
Has P1 produced any other documentation on the release? Where can I find it?
Roger
-
Thank you for the info, Steve
IMHO, P1's documentation on the new release leaves a lot to be desired. I think the documentation only includes a brief summary of the features included in the release and how to install the firmware. There is nothing that I can see about how to use the ETTR feature.
So, can you help, please?
Does the ETTR feature work on non-XT technical cameras?
If it does, how do you turn it on and off?
What does it produce to show (or how do you know) what settings should be used to get the optimum ETTR exposure?
Has P1 produced any other documentation on the release? Where can I find it?
Roger
Hi Roger -
I can't disagree with you on the lack of precise documentation.
LAB Tools are turned on/off in the About Menu (I know, strange place for it). If you see Frame Averaging and Dual Exposure +, that means your LAB tools are ON, and you should also see ETTR (if your IQ4 is mounted to an XT or XF Camera.
At this point it is a very simple press the ETTR button to make it work. No settings or refinements yet. In our experience so far, as we state in the article, it works inconsistently and not optimally on the XT, and while it seems to allow you to use it on the XF, we have not seen any change from other exposures (it does have to be in ES mode to work).
It's possible that the tool at this point is so simple (just press, no settings) that Phase One didn't feel compelled to offer more detailed instructions, but those would be welcome.
You must have an IQ4, and it only is an active tool when used on XT or XF cameras in ES mode.
I would emphasize that - unlike the previous LAB tools, ETTR is not out of the box polished and operating optimally. It is not. So feedback is important to shape this tool. Plese do feedback your experiences and suggestions to Phase One. The link below has some instructions for how to do so.
https://www.captureintegration.com/creating-phase-one-support-cases-and-providing-lab-feedback/ (https://www.captureintegration.com/creating-phase-one-support-cases-and-providing-lab-feedback/)
Steve Hendrix/CI
-
Although it shows up with back on XF it does not work.
ETTR seems to move the camera to AV mode no matter what mode you are set to at the time. When you engage it on the XF it just takes a picture at the current settings. Net nothing happens. Makes no difference if you change to AV mode manually on the XF.
Odds are it will only work on Phase One platforms i.e. XT or XF as they have a AV setting. Non Phase tech cameras are out of luck unless they use the X shutter I guess.
Possible start of a new trend for P1 of offering new features only for their cameras.
Paul C
-
On P1's release note, it says:
"New Lab Feature
The Phase One Lab offers a “Beta proving ground” for all IQ4 customers." [Emphasis added]
And I am sure I have seen a paper which lists the new features under separate headings for XF cameras, XT cameras and IQ4 backs and the ETTR feature was only listed under "IQ4" or similar heading and not under the headings for the two P1 cameras.
I took from those arrangements of the information that ETTR was available on !Q4 backs regardless of whether they are attached to a P1 camera.
I am disappointed to read that it will not work on non-P1 cameras.
I am still mystified as to how it works even on P1 cameras. Do you press the ETTR button and does it then set exposure settings in the electronic shutter mode? On my non-P1 camera, pressing ETTR takes a shot at the present ES settings but I cannot see the point of that.
Roger
-
I agree the wording of the announcement is misleading.
ETTR apparently needs the camera to be in Av mode. Aperture priority.
Thus no non P1 camera will work. And currently even the XF does not work even with XF in Av mode and ES shutter.
Odds are 100 percent feature will never work with any non P1 camera or non XT tech camera. Might work in future with a Cambo or Alpa camera with a X shutter lens mounted. But I tend to doubt that as only the XT as far as I know has a Av shooting mode as other tech cameras are pretty dumb. Not sure even how the XT can accurately work with this since it has no metering system I am aware of the IQ4 has no built in metering. I would assume metering is important here.
Amazing to me the total lack of information released on this feature, lack of testing on XF, and instead a general statement from P1 implying it will work for anyone using a IQ4 back.
Paul C
-
Does someone know how this is working for IQ3 on XF?
Some comments imply that the XF part of the firmware upgrade is applicable for XF cameras with an IQ3, is this indeed the case?
Thanks.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
Does someone know how this is working for IQ3 on XF?
Some comments imply that the XF part of the firmware upgrade is applicable for XF cameras with an IQ3, is this indeed the case?
Thanks.
Cheers,
Bernard
Hi Bernard -
The majority of the firmware elements are related to IQ4, however, the XF does get a speed boost - leaf shutter performance is more efficient, feels more responsive, and it may shoot a bit faster (shots per second). This is the case whether you have an IQ1/IQ2/IQ3/IQ4.
Steve Hendrix/CI
-
You seem to suggest that ETTR will only show as an option on an IQ4 if it is attached to a P1 camera but my IQ4 shows ETTR even though it is not connected to a P1 camera. In fact, its shown on two screens and it will take a shot if I press the ETTR "button" but the shot is taken at the then current settings on the back.
There is no reason why P1 could not have the ETTR feature display on an IQ4, when used with a third party technical camera, a recommended shutter speed based on the current aperture of the lens on the technical camera and the ISO setting. The user would then have to manually set the shutter speed on the ES on the back.
After all, ETTR would be doing the same calculations when attached to a P1 camera. On a third-party camera, ETTR would not have to link up with any camera controls and would only have to show the recommended shutter speed on the back—even easier!
Roger
Hi Roger -
I can't disagree with you on the lack of precise documentation.
LAB Tools are turned on/off in the About Menu (I know, strange place for it). If you see Frame Averaging and Dual Exposure +, that means your LAB tools are ON, and you should also see ETTR (if your IQ4 is mounted to an XT or XF Camera.
At this point it is a very simple press the ETTR button to make it work. No settings or refinements yet. In our experience so far, as we state in the article, it works inconsistently and not optimally on the XT, and while it seems to allow you to use it on the XF, we have not seen any change from other exposures (it does have to be in ES mode to work).
It's possible that the tool at this point is so simple (just press, no settings) that Phase One didn't feel compelled to offer more detailed instructions, but those would be welcome.
You must have an IQ4, and it only is an active tool when used on XT or XF cameras in ES mode.
I would emphasize that - unlike the previous LAB tools, ETTR is not out of the box polished and operating optimally. It is not. So feedback is important to shape this tool. Plese do feedback your experiences and suggestions to Phase One. The link below has some instructions for how to do so.
https://www.captureintegration.com/creating-phase-one-support-cases-and-providing-lab-feedback/ (https://www.captureintegration.com/creating-phase-one-support-cases-and-providing-lab-feedback/)
Steve Hendrix/CI
-
This was my thinking also, as dual exposure and frame averaging work fine on a non P1 back. However with the ETTR, the camera is moved to Av mode (aperture) priority. Which I guess makes sense. So it's using the light meter of the XF or XT (still not sure that the XT has any intelligence but I have never used one) I think that the XT is just using the Exposure simulation from Live view but since you have an X shutter lens, it can be moved to Av mode.
What amazes me still is all the P1 marketing fluff on the the new features and etc that were given to the XF, that they did not manage to get the feature to work at release on a normal camera body, like the XF which has a built in light meter but can also allow metering from Live View via exposure simulation.
As you point out, the lab icon for ETTR shows up no matter what the IQ4 is attached to XF, XT, non P1 tech camera etc. But currently only works on the XT, and it seems somewhat lacking with that.
I am not a big fan of the camera picking a aperture for me, with MF, as most times the camera will side to the more wide open apertures, which have the least DOF.
The literature that P1 released with the feature is totally worthless and misleading, there are no instructions, (as all you are supposed to do is hit the icon), but their literature implies it works with any IQ4, no matter that camera is attached, as long as the camera is in ES mode.
Paul C
-
Hi Bernard -
The majority of the firmware elements are related to IQ4, however, the XF does get a speed boost - leaf shutter performance is more efficient, feels more responsive, and it may shoot a bit faster (shots per second). This is the case whether you have an IQ1/IQ2/IQ3/IQ4.
Steve Hendrix/CI
Thanks Steve, much appreciated.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
How does everyone feel about the update 8 on the IQ4-150?
Is the back finally ready for prime time?
I am still considering an upgrade from the IQ3 Tricho but I am concerned about regressions in battery life, stability and speed of operation.
Thanks.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
I think the back is pretty stable. I love how it works on a tech camera (non-XT) and the new x-shutter. Auto-exposure is somewhat hit-n-miss - it depends on the scene. The lab ETTR feature is maybe going to be interesting some day. For me, I'm mostly manual so those are less important. Ad Hoc wifi has potential but no "Capture Pilot" equivalent yet. Still, it does provide more flexibility. XF seems more responsive. In a way, Capture One has also helped with the new Pro Standard profiles and associated color fidelity. The files are gorgeous.
For me, Dual Exposure+ is worth the price of admission and I do really like the Frame Averaging capabilities. Live view is becoming more stable - I find it quite usable. I use an external monitor fairly often and HDMI out is a great feature that seems by all accounts better than the IQ3 implementation. I've come from a Leaf Credo 80 so I can't compare the IQ4 with the 3, per se. Just my impressions over the past few months of owning the back.
-
Thanks a lot Ray, much appreciated.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
I like using my 4-150 but I was shooting a sea and sky scene a couple of months ago with the ES and, quite frequently, the top 1cm or so of the frame was pure black and I had to reshoot. I had read about this happening a long ago and I am surprised that it has not been fixed.
Roger
How does everyone feel about the update 8 on the IQ4-150?
Is the back finally ready for prime time?
I am still considering an upgrade from the IQ3 Tricho but I am concerned about regressions in battery life, stability and speed of operation.
Thanks.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
the top black frame issue was fixed with the Feature update 8. I agree it was a real problem as you never knew where the issue would occur and it make shifts or panorama shooting difficult. I have tested it with my Arca and after 300 or more frames, no problems.
As for the IQ4 and being solid. After two years, I figure it's as solid as it will be.
Most of the bugs seem to be worked out now it's more an issue of some features present in previous backs, (3100) not being carried over to the newest technology.
1. No ability still to use Capture Pilot on a iOS device to fire the back, and review Live View
2. Power share, only allows you to pull the battery in the IQ4 while attached to the XF and not share the power. (this issue is a big one for me as I only shoot in the field)
3. There appears to be an issue where after Feature Update 8, with the back tethered, it no longer allows you to charge the internal battery as you could before
4. Still takes about 12 seconds to fully become operational after a power up (always been an issue compared to other cameras)
5. I find the "exposure simulation" setting for live view pretty worthless. Very hard to get a real idea of the correct exposure
6. The Manual View View exposure mode still seems a bit whacky, as it will bloom between too bright and too dark, and is very hard to pin down, unlike the 3100
7. Low Light live view did have an issue with frame rate, thus causing you to have to push up the ISO to get a screen to view (not sure if this has been resolved)
The image quality is the best I have seen from a P1 back, (can't talk to the tricolor back never have used it), Color casts are pretty much non existent unless you use huge movements. You can actually use the SK35 (centered) without the CF and get away with it. Something that has never been possible before CCD or CMOS back. Tech camera operations are greatly improved as you can many times just shot a series of LCC frames at the start of a day, and not have to keep shooting them as really all you are trying to correct now is light fall off.
Dual exposure is the single greatest feature I have used, and the image quality it can produce is impressive. You can use it with moderate wind unlike frame averaging which can't tolerate any subject movement. Shadow details are greatly increase, with almost no noise. And I feel that the images appear just a bit sharper. I would love to see Fuji work out something similar since they have the same sensor tech, instead of wasting time on a 16 frame 400MP image. Something that such limited use in reality.
Phase One also claims to have improved the XF functionality with Feature Update 8, I have yet to really see much difference in my use with the XF, but I am not in a studio, using flash, or worried about shutter lag issues. They seem mainly focused on the XT currently and processing updates and new products towards that direction. XT for me is a not a player, way to expensive to switch and no tilt (yes tilt does matter even on wides) and the cost to move to the X shutter even though supposedly I can do it now from an Arca mount is around 5K? 6k? just for a shutter. And unless you have the XT camera you don't gain all the features the X shutter offers. An example of this is the EXIR feature (lab) that came out with Feature Update 8. Only works with the XT and will may never work with a non XT tech camera even with X shutter, since there is no communication of the aperture to the back, something the EXIR feature needs. Why it won't work with the XF is beyond me and something that Phase One should have fixed before the feature was released.
Paul C
-
the top black frame issue was fixed with the Feature update 8. I agree it was a real problem as you never knew where the issue would occur and it make shifts or panorama shooting difficult. I have tested it with my Arca and after 300 or more frames, no problems.
As for the IQ4 and being solid. After two years, I figure it's as solid as it will be.
Most of the bugs seem to be worked out now it's more an issue of some features present in previous backs, (3100) not being carried over to the newest technology.
1. No ability still to use Capture Pilot on a iOS device to fire the back, and review Live View
2. Power share, only allows you to pull the battery in the IQ4 while attached to the XF and not share the power. (this issue is a big one for me as I only shoot in the field)
3. There appears to be an issue where after Feature Update 8, with the back tethered, it no longer allows you to charge the internal battery as you could before
4. Still takes about 12 seconds to fully become operational after a power up (always been an issue compared to other cameras)
5. I find the "exposure simulation" setting for live view pretty worthless. Very hard to get a real idea of the correct exposure
6. The Manual View View exposure mode still seems a bit whacky, as it will bloom between too bright and too dark, and is very hard to pin down, unlike the 3100
7. Low Light live view did have an issue with frame rate, thus causing you to have to push up the ISO to get a screen to view (not sure if this has been resolved)
The image quality is the best I have seen from a P1 back, (can't talk to the tricolor back never have used it), Color casts are pretty much non existent unless you use huge movements. You can actually use the SK35 (centered) without the CF and get away with it. Something that has never been possible before CCD or CMOS back. Tech camera operations are greatly improved as you can many times just shot a series of LCC frames at the start of a day, and not have to keep shooting them as really all you are trying to correct now is light fall off.
Dual exposure is the single greatest feature I have used, and the image quality it can produce is impressive. You can use it with moderate wind unlike frame averaging which can't tolerate any subject movement. Shadow details are greatly increase, with almost no noise. And I feel that the images appear just a bit sharper. I would love to see Fuji work out something similar since they have the same sensor tech, instead of wasting time on a 16 frame 400MP image. Something that such limited use in reality.
Phase One also claims to have improved the XF functionality with Feature Update 8, I have yet to really see much difference in my use with the XF, but I am not in a studio, using flash, or worried about shutter lag issues. They seem mainly focused on the XT currently and processing updates and new products towards that direction. XT for me is a not a player, way to expensive to switch and no tilt (yes tilt does matter even on wides) and the cost to move to the X shutter even though supposedly I can do it now from an Arca mount is around 5K? 6k? just for a shutter. And unless you have the XT camera you don't gain all the features the X shutter offers. An example of this is the EXIR feature (lab) that came out with Feature Update 8. Only works with the XT and will may never work with a non XT tech camera even with X shutter, since there is no communication of the aperture to the back, something the EXIR feature needs. Why it won't work with the XF is beyond me and something that Phase One should have fixed before the feature was released.
Paul C
Hello Paul,
just a quick line to say that I am under the impression that there actually IS communication of the aperture between X-Shutter lenses and the back, even on non-XT tech camera when the lens is connected via the proper cable. Hope this helps!
Best regards,
Vieri
-
Confirmed that there is communication to the aperture from the back to the lens via the cable on non-XT cameras. Minus the shift information you get with the XT, all other lens metadata is recorded.
-
Thanks a lot Paul!
Dual exposure and reduced lens cast are tempting, but I am a bit concerned by the lack of power sharing and live view issues.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
Hi Bernard,
Glad to pass on info. Is there a way you can rent to own or demo a back? I feel if you used it on your tech camera setup, you would be very impressed. I can't speak to the color differences, between the tricolor and IQ4, but it would be interesting to hear your feedback. I was very close to upgrading to the tricolor, but held off when I was told that Phase One would have a better solution coming in 6 months for tech camera lenses.
Paul C
-
Thanks a lot Paul!
Dual exposure and reduced lens cast are tempting, but I am a bit concerned by the lack of power sharing and live view issues.
Cheers,
Bernard
As much as there are some ... how should we put this ... legacy performance issues that remain un-resolved on the IQ4, if I was using a technical camera, and I used an IQ4 and then was told I had to go back to an IQ3, no frigging way. For tech camera users, the workflow difference is far too important. Virtually no color cast and no black frame reference. Most of my clients never perform an LCC with their IQ4 backs. It doesn't mean there isn't still some benefit, but many just don't even bother any longer. And goodby black frame references (unless you - optionally - want them).
Steve Hendrix/CI
-
Great point on the Black frame reference. I pretty much quit using my tech camera on the 3100 due to this issue, just too much overhead and time needed, and went back to the XF. When I tested the IQ4 against the 3100, first thing that happened, was the 3100 was asking for the black frame reference, and it all came back to me.
I now can't remember what created the need for the black frame reference, but as I recall it was any time the shutter speed was changed when using the ES? I can't remember if the black frame was needed with if the Copal was used, but I was only interested in using ES.
Paul C
-
...
As for the IQ4 and being solid. After two years, I figure it's as solid as it will be.
3. There appears to be an issue where after Feature Update 8, with the back tethered, it no longer allows you to charge the internal battery as you could before.....
Paul C
Paul, thank you so much for all this detail - thankfully I haven't upgraded my XF/3-100 set-up to this level yet because the point you make of not it no longer trickle charging the battery is worrying as this single function proved a God send at times. Is this 100% for real?
Meanwhile I'll happily sacrifice some faster LS function to retain the ability to work at all!
Thanking Ye!
Charles
-
Hi. Yes. Currently the IQ4 has not trickle charge where the back can take power from the battery in the XF. I also loved this feature in the 3100 and just thought it would be there with the IQ4.
Odds are it won’t now. All you get now is the ability to pull the battery out of the back while it’s on the XF and the back will not power off.
Paul C
-
Hi! This contradicts and undermines the whole raison d'être of the XF - it was designed/sold/advertised as being infinitely conformable to any users requirements. Simply wanting to keep the electricity flowing is hardly an idiosyncratic demand!
It's beyond belief - mine lives on the big Manfrotto 400 geared head on a stand and often elevated and beyond reach when working, and often the battery compartment can't even be opened when it's at certain angles. What is P1 thinking by removing existing utility from a camera that's meant to represent the ultimate quest for the N'th utility?
It's unworthy of Phase One. Shame upon those Danish Dolts!
Thank you again Paul for your diligence and generosity in sharing this.
Warmly,
Charles
-
Yes, this something even the H6D-100c does better now. One battery for camera and back.
The fact it hasn’t been fixed by now after 8 firmware upgrades tells us it’s a probably a hardware issue with the IQ4...
I was shooting in heavy snow on Thu with my Trichro and being able to keep shooting after the back’s battery got empty was super helpful.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
Yes, this something even the H6D-100c does better now. One battery for camera and back.
The fact it hasn’t been fixed by now after 8 firmware upgrades tells us it’s a probably a hardware issue with the IQ4...
I was shooting in heavy snow on Thu with my Trichro and being able to keep shooting after the back’s battery got empty was super helpful.
Cheers,
Bernard
Bernard Hi!
The XF/IQ3-100 does share power between batteries and deplete assymetrically dependent upon usage. Forgive me if I'm misinterpreting you, but does the IQ4 not?
My issue with the upgrade Paul details so well is his point 3) - that when tethered run he reports the batteries within the IQ & XF are no longer trickle charged, so the setting on the back is absent (?) but I assume that this issue is via the USB cable rather than the power adapter, which if used when tethered will still trickle charge the battery set?
STEVE! Please, is this correct? Thanks
most cordially,
Charles
-
No the IQ4 does not trickle charge from the XF. You only get the ability to pull the battery in the back when it gets low without powering the back off.
IQ4 also consumes the P1 3400 milliamperes battery faster.
And still with latest firmware feature upgrade 8 the battery will show 20 percent or less when you actually have around 35 percent remaining. Not a huge deal but it does seem the intelligence for the battery logic took a step backwards with the IQ4.
Paul C
-
No the IQ4 does not trickle charge from the XF. You only get the ability to pull the battery in the back when it gets low without powering the back off.
IQ4 also consumes the P1 3400 milliamperes battery faster.
And still with latest firmware feature upgrade 8 the battery will show 20 percent or less when you actually have around 35 percent remaining. Not a huge deal but it does seem the intelligence for the battery logic took a step backwards with the IQ4.
Paul C
Paul thanks, are you shooting tethered with the XF/IQ set-up powered by batteries only or wired up to the power adapter please?
-
I am only shooting in the field. Not tethered. With the 3100 and XF the back would run down its battery to a certain level they it would use the battery in the XF. It did not charge the battery with a trickle charge. The IQ4 does not have this capability.
The trickle charging would apply to tethering. With feature update 8 it seems the IQ4 battery is no longer being charged. It used to allow this when tethered to a PC or MAC with USB3. Capture Integration wrote a blog article about this problem right after the Feature Update was released. I don’t think this issue has been fixed as of yet. There may be a beta firmware out there however that has been released to dealers. Here is a link.
https://www.captureintegration.com/feature-update-8-usb-power-not-so-great/
Paul C
-
The IQ4 has a range of options for external power, i.e. USB-C, PoE and AC-power through the XF Power Supply (AC power adapter). As I don’t have a PoE router I never tested this option. In the field a USB-C powerbank is the most convenient option to extend shooting time on the IQ4. While the previous firmware allowed a power input of up to 45 W which enabled quick charging in the field, this was cut to 15 W with firmware update 8. It’s enough to power the IQ4 without using the battery but there isn’t much excess power left to charge the battery while actively shooting. When idling it charges faster and even trickles some power to the XF. That said, when the camera is not idling the XF does not get any power from a USB-C powerbank on the IQ4. Currently the only way to power the full XF IQ4 system externally is through the XF Power Supply connected the XF. While there are AC capable power banks available having a DC power source convert to AC power which the XF power supply transforms back into DC is not very power efficient. In my tests with such a setup the total power consumption climbed to more than 20 W while shooting long exposure sequences.
I measured the cutoff voltage of the IQ4 battery when the back indicates it’s depleted, and it still read about 7.0V without any load. Under lower loads these batteries can easily be drained down to 6.0V though a peak load on a battery that is drained this far could cause stability issues. By setting a higher cutoff voltage and thereby lowering the effective capacity of a battery the engineers make sure that the battery is always at a level where it can power the system under the system’s maximum load. System stability is a higher priority than effective battery capacity.
It also explains why there have been reports that some chargers indicate a depleted battery still has 20% charge left. I would guess the charger expects a lower cutoff voltage from that type of battery. On the newer Hähnel Cube charger that comes with the IQ4 I get a reading between 0 and 5% for a depleted battery. I guess these chargers are calibrated to display the capacity properly for use with the IQ4.
So there are several factors that lead to a significantly lower shot capacity per battery on the XF IQ4 system vs. the XF IQ3 system. The IQ4 is more power hungry than the IQ3. On the IQ4 the batteries have a lower effective capacity. The XF battery does not trickle power to the IQ4 except for keeping the system running during battery changes.
-Dominique