Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Mirrorless Cameras => Topic started by: Michael Erlewine on September 11, 2019, 12:20:35 pm
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Just a note. My gut is that the new iPhone 11 Pro/Pro Max is a pivot point, especially with the forthcoming “Deep Fusion” mode which combines a series of shots (like stacking) to make a highly detailed shot. The iPhone 11 can also produce DNGs.
The camera now has three cameras:
An ultra-wide 13mm f/2.4 5-element lens with 120-degrees field of view and a 12MP sensor.
A 26mm f/1.8 wide, 6-elements, 12 MP sensor with optical stabilization camera.
A 52mm f/2.0, 6-element lens, with optical stabilization, 2x optical zoom 12MP sensor.
It also works with a fascinating piece of software for video called Filmic, which allows you to use some of the multiple cameras in the iPhone 11. In addition, the iPhone 11 Pro/Pro Max has 512 GB and up to 5 hours more battery time than before.
My best guess is that this event is a toehold on the future and the flag or sign that a beefed-up iPhone can finally handle low to medium photographic tasks, if not right now, then soon.
When you consider you can get DNGs from this camera, Night Mode, and a small host of other features, we have, IMO, crossed a point of no-return. If this is not the next page, then at least the iPhone 11 sends a signal that change indeed is coming.
The thought of carrying an iPhone, a gimbal, and a few other accessories instead of all the gear I now carry is worth thinking about. No, not for landscapes and the kind of close-up I like, but to be able to carry around a camera in my shirt pocket to address all of the times I wish I had a camera with me is tempting. I am getting one and selling a bunch of lenses.
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The phones, when used intentionally can produce pretty amazing results. I still find 1" sensors to be about the smallest sensor I prefer for anything serious...but the phone fills out a lot of tasks. However, in a pinch, their photo and video features have completely overtaken smaller cameras for me. 12mp is fine. I often find myself going out with just the phone more often now. Filmic is a great app too. Gives great control for video. There are several photo apps that are really much better too. I actually really love the fact the the phones now had a 50mm eq lens. When I heard they were going to add a third lens I was really hoping we would go further telephoto. That way we'd have 28, 50, 90 for instance. 13 is kind of crazy. But hey!
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I can create DNGs on my iPhone XR. Its 12 MP camera does an amazing job but.... I've only ditched by old Canon pocket point & shoot as a result The video it takes is pretty good as well.
BTW, on my XR the app "NeuralCam" is what I use for "Night Mode". The app "Moment" provides all the controls you'd want from a digital sensor camera.
Obviously the XR doesn't have 3 lenses and all of its speed like the 11Pro/Pro Max but it costs a heck of a lot less.
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Very true, even if the LL crowd isn’t the population whose photo equipment purchasing habits will be most impacted.
The target is the millions still buying cheap APS-C DSLRscameras for “family pictures”, more so that 1 inch super compacts IMHO.
The 1 inch sensor compacts are bought by FF/MF owners as a complement while cheap APS-C DSLR cameras are bought by people who know nothing about photography and just want to take “better” snaps of their relatives and of the places they visit. And they are mostly going to get a phone instead.
Canon (and to a lesser extent Nikon - who sells a mix more pulled towards higher end bodies) will be hit incredibly hard by this.
Sony will fare better because the capabilities of their a6000 series are closer to the iPhone capabilities in terms of just taking that work in idiot mode (thanks to the AF).
Cheers,
Bernard
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The target is the millions still buying cheap APS-C DSLRscameras for “family pictures”, more so that 1 inch super compacts IMHO.
Is anybody really going to buy an iPhone 11 because it has a better camera other than as a rationalization?
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To me, that is not the point. I suggest we are transitioning as to what we use photography for. I can’t or don’t want to haul a lot of equipment around. I just came back from a 1600-mile trip, carrying a bunch of lenses for the Z7, and a Sony FS-5 video system for video, plus two separate tripods, heads, cables, and on and on.
That’s a job. I would also like to have an upscale smart phone like the iPhone 11 Pro with perhaps a gimbal, a monopod, and perhaps a tiny tripod when I want something simpler, or just take an iPhone out when I walk or whatever. I am liking the idea of making small videos, as well.
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I find I'm getting "lazy" a lot more lately and that the current iPhone is often good enough vs. even just bringing my Fuji X-E3 and a few lenses (a camera I really love to shoot with).
The new one is totally on my "will get right away" list because it does seem that much better. I think as soon as these 3-camera systems work their way down to regular iPhones and not just the fanciest iPhones, there won't be much of a P&S market left.
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Is anybody really going to buy an iPhone 11 because it has a better camera other than as a rationalization?
I most likely will, simply because it would costs me nothing extra to do so. I will trade in my X Max, which was the same price.
Plus, it has a really cool (actually, hot) new functionality:
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I gave up on using my Samsung Galaxy S7 because I have a very small pocket camera that runs rings around it--the Sony RX1004. A few weeks ago I hiked 50 miles total over 5 days of day hiking with that camera in my pants pocket the whole time. I would make a quick stop, take a few photos and get back to hiking. My favorite photo of the trip was taken with that camera (also had Sony A7r2 with 24-70 lens in my pack, but only took it out if I was highly motivated). Made a tack sharp black and white print that is about 14X18. Best way to go light.
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I’ve been photographing since 1956 and have had just above every Nikon digital camera since the CoolPix and the Nikon D1 DSRL and on up to the Nikon Z7. I have scores of lenses and have been very serious about close-up macro and focus stacking.
So, I don’t say this glibly, that for me this is a transitional moment for me, getting the iPhone 11 Pro for some fairly serious work. I still have all my cameras, technical cameras, bellows, and lenses, although I will sell some lenses. I will use all the digital cameras in my studio and especially in winter here in Michigan.
However, I am going to look into what it feels like to have a reasonably capable camera I can place in my pocket. And I have ordered all the accessories already: gimbal, apps, tripod heads, and so on.
Just like flowers ripen, one at a time. This new iPhone 11 Pro is enough for me to give it a serious try. And, I want to make short videos, as well.
I am studying the Filmic Pro and "Moment" apps and although I have a small Sony RX digital camera (as well), the combined components of the iPhone 11 Pro Max has pushed me over the edge. You may differ.
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Is anybody really going to buy an iPhone 11 because it has a better camera other than as a rationalization?
Apple seems to be thinking they will, and they are often right.
But that's beside the point. The point is that many of the millions who will buy an iPhone 11 Pro will overlap with those millions who would have been candidate to buy APS-C DSLRs. Young professionals, probably with young kids... not to mention China and India.
Cheers,
Bernard
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It's funny how many talk about camera ergonomics and some people won't use certain cameras because of the ergonomics...yet we seem to feel the phone being ok from an ergonomic view. Not for me. I hate holding the damn thing away from my body and trying to compose a good image. I hate having to touch the screen to focus...causing my carefully composed image to move. I hate having to hit a virtual button on the screen to take a photo. The experience of using a phone to capture anything other than a quick snap is truly painful.
No thanks...much rather bring along my photo equipment and enjoy my photography and results.
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Phone apps like "Moment" and "Filmic Pro" for the iPhone allow you to do all kinds of things more than the bare iPhone. Nothing has changed. As far as I can remember, people are for and against most anything. For me, it's about how much photography I want to do and the state of mind photographing puts me in. I like my creativity photographically and I believe I can expand and extend that with the latest iPhone 11 Pro and spend more time in that mood. And, after all, I am retired. I still have a roomful of equipment to use and no doubt will also do that.
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It's funny how many talk about camera ergonomics and some people won't use certain cameras because of the ergonomics...yet we seem to feel the phone being ok from an ergonomic view. Not for me. I hate holding the damn thing away from my body and trying to compose a good image. I hate having to touch the screen to focus...causing my carefully composed image to move. I hate having to hit a virtual button on the screen to take a photo. The experience of using a phone to capture anything other than a quick snap is truly painful.
No thanks...much rather bring along my photo equipment and enjoy my photography and results.
The point has never been that serious photographers will stop using their dedicated cameras.
But serious photographers make up probably less than 10% of interchangeable lens camera buyers. The bulk is people who just want better memories of their life events. And convenience trumps ergonomics for them. Especially when the quality gets this close to what APS-C cameras deliver for web postings and prints no larger than A4.
This is why Canon is predicting such a dramatic drop of their sales in the coming years.
Cheers,
Bernard
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On one hand, I think a good argument can be made that the latest generation of high end camera-phones are good enough for many needs of "casual photographers"; ones whose gear in the past did not go beyond an entry-level SLR (film or digital) with a 3x or 4x kit zoom, or a mainstream-priced compact digital camera. Certainly for FOV, where I would argue that 3MP or "2K" resolution was enough for compact digital cameras to replace SLRs for a great majority of those casual users about two decades ago and with a 2x crop from 12MP or giving that, camera-phones like the new iPhones (and alternatives like Samsung Galaxies and Google Pixels) give that 2K/3MP across the entire FOV range from very wide to about 100mm equivalent; better than any kit zoom. Throw in much discussed advantages like video, internet connectivity and ever-improving low light ability via frame merging and such (so long as subject movement is not an issue) and it looks to me that low end ILCs with a single basic kit lens are a threatened species.
On the other hand, I cannot understand the insistence of people like Bernard that the entire sub-35mm format ILC category is seriously threatened by these cameras that still have the fundamental physical disadvantage of vastly smaller sensors and far smaller effective aperture sizes, and thus far lower light-gathering speed, with focal lengths also severely limited by the need for pocketability. As soon as a casual picture-taker is interested in the motion handling abilities of even f/4 in 4/3" or APS-C format, or the options for far greater telephoto reach from quite modestly-priced lenses offer (300mm equivalent FOV and beyond), there is plenty of room for a 4/3" or APS-C body with a couple of decent lenses (or even just one super-zoom) to do things that no phone-camera comes up to, at a price that no 35mm format alternative comes down to.
May I invoke the stereotype of the "soccer mum"? Because photographing children at play (or other "wild life") is just one common example where a smaller format (4/3" to APS-C) ILC kit can be both way more capable than a phone and way cheaper (and lighter) than a 35mm format kit with comparable FOV range.
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May I invoke the stereotype of the "soccer mum"? Because photographing children at play (or other "wild life") is just one common example where a smaller format (4/3" to APS-C) ILC kit can be both way more capable than a phone and way cheaper (and lighter) than a 35mm format kit with comparable FOV range.
I have a daughter and she has friends. And they have parents. And many of them like to take pictures... and they use their phones...
Anyway, I may be wrong, Future will tell.
Cheers,
Bernard
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My iPhone is indeed able to take pictures. For me there ends any relationship to ‘photography’. The iPhone 11 doesn’t change this.
I can’t understand why anyone remotely connected to photography would even consider a phone as a replacement for a camera. Let’s for convenience say that it’s my narrow minded thinking :-[
Regards,
Jaap.
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Few are as dedicated to fine APO lenses than am I. And I don’t see the Apple iPhone 11 Pro as anything but a replacement for the tiny cameras I sometimes have to also carry around. Plus it does a ton of other things I have need of in a day.
I don’t expect it to compete with my three Printing Nikkors, NOCT Nikkor, or Leica Elmarit R 100mm, etc. It leans the other way, toward less perfect, yet for me, “available” photo taking when I am not with my various technical cameras and so on. This is especially true of the “Deep Fusion” feature when it arrives for the iPhone 11 Pro and if it works like they say.
I see this phone as opening up short videos (not mainstream movies) for more folks, especially with apps like “Filmic” and “Moment.”
I don’t see high-end photography dying to any greater degree than it ALREADY HAS! That future has already passed, IMO.
I am a photographer 24x7 (to some degree), but up until now I have been limited by the huge pile of gear I have to have for my close-up/macro focus-stacking. I like the idea of going for a walk with a pocked-sized iPhone in case I see something beautiful. It is that simple and my bet is that many other photographers will see this too.
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My iPhone is indeed able to take pictures. For me there ends any relationship to ‘photography’. The iPhone 11 doesn’t change this.
I can’t understand why anyone remotely connected to photography would even consider a phone as a replacement for a camera. Let’s for convenience say that it’s my narrow minded thinking :-[
Maybe because the level of image quality of an iPhone Pro 11 is close to what APS-C DSLRs were offering 6-7 years ago?
Cheers,
Bernard
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The point has never been that serious photographers will stop using their dedicated cameras.
But serious photographers make up probably less than 10% of interchangeable lens camera buyers. The bulk is people who just want better memories of their life events. And convenience trumps ergonomics for them. Especially when the quality gets this close to what APS-C cameras deliver for web postings and prints no larger than A4.
This is why Canon is predicting such a dramatic drop of their sales in the coming years.
Cheers,
Bernard
Ummm...I believe the member that started this thread is an accomplished photographer and is talking about using the new iPhone. My view on ergonomics still stands.
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My iPhone is indeed able to take pictures. For me there ends any relationship to ‘photography’. The iPhone 11 doesn’t change this.
I can’t understand why anyone remotely connected to photography would even consider a phone as a replacement for a camera. Let’s for convenience say that it’s my narrow minded thinking :-[
Regards,
Jaap.
My exact same thoughts.
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Maybe because the level of image quality of an iPhone Pro 11 is close to what APS-C DSLRs were offering 6-7 years ago?
Cheers,
Bernard
But it's not only the end result that counts. The experience of using a phone to take photos is miserable.
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To me, much of these comments are "Whistling in the dark," IMO.
I have a Sony RX100 that is small enough, but I hardly ever choose to take it with me. On the other hand, I have to take my smart phone often, if only for emergency calls when walking, family, etc.
I often see something with my "photographer's" eye when I have no gear with me. I enjoyment of light and shadow works 24x7. This phone (or perhaps the next version) may allow me to capture compositions that strike me and are worth capturing and showing to others. I don't expect the results to best my Otus lenses, but they may be good enough to share with the 7500 folks I blog to each day. we will see and I will make a point of sharing what I discover here, whether good, bad, or indifferent.
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A 52mm f/2.0, 6-element lens, with optical stabilization, 2x optical zoom 12MP sensor.
I'm puzzled by this one — Is it a zoom lens or not? If it's a zoom, is 52mm the wide end? Did the previous iPhone have this lens?
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I'm puzzled by this one — Is it a zoom lens or not? If it's a zoom, is 52mm the wide end? Did the previous iPhone have this lens?
It is not a zoom.
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... I can’t understand why anyone remotely connected to photography would even consider a phone as a replacement for a camera...
Resistance is futile.
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It's funny how many talk about camera ergonomics and some people won't use certain cameras because of the ergonomics...yet we seem to feel the phone being ok from an ergonomic view. Not for me. I hate holding the damn thing away from my body and trying to compose a good image. I hate having to touch the screen to focus...causing my carefully composed image to move. I hate having to hit a virtual button on the screen to take a photo. The experience of using a phone to capture anything other than a quick snap is truly painful.
No thanks...much rather bring along my photo equipment and enjoy my photography and results.
Yep. Ergonomics. About as much fun as hand holding a Speed Graphic. Trying to use a phone is what lead me to buying and carrying a Sony point and shoot. Also not great but way better then a phone. Like trying to take a photo with a bar of soap.
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I also find the iPhone a cumbersome tool that will never replace my camera. But the best camera is the one that I have with me. I would not refrain from using iPhone as a photographic tool just because it is an iPhone.
Furthermore, the iPhone creates a different set of challenges, which are interesting and may lead me to make photographs that I would not make with a 'real' camera.
I have seen some top photographers taking amazing pictures with their iPhones,. They see the iPhone as a challenge, not a degradation of their craft.
For some nice work, see winners of 2019 iPhone Photography Awards:https://www.ippawards.com/ (https://www.ippawards.com/)
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Resistance is futile.
Just admit that we, photographers, are a dying breed. Once you admit it, the road to recovery is quicker.
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I have seen some top photographers taking amazing pictures with their iPhones,. They see the iPhone as a challenge, not a degradation of their craft.
My sentiments exactly. Never occurred to me not to accept it as a challenge. Never looked down on it, other than for what it was.
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I also find the iPhone a cumbersome tool that will never replace my camera. But the best camera is the one that I have with me. I would not refrain from using iPhone as a photographic tool just because it is an iPhone.
Furthermore, the iPhone creates a different set of challenges, which are interesting and may lead me to make photographs that I would not make with a 'real' camera.
I have seen some top photographers taking amazing pictures with their iPhones,. They see the iPhone as a challenge, not a degradation of their craft.
For some nice work, see winners of 2019 iPhone Photography Awards:https://www.ippawards.com/ (https://www.ippawards.com/)
Traveled to Vietnam...took my camera kit.
Traveled to Morocco...took my camera kit.
Traveled to India...took my camera kit.
Traveled to Tanzania...took my camera kit.
Went out for dinner with my wife...took my phone.
If I know I'm going to be taking photos...I always grab my camera. If I'm just out and about, I always have my phone. The two will never cross.
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For those who may be tempted by this phone, I saw in some credible media outlet in the past few days a warning that Apple may be planning an incredible (but probably expensive) upgrade in 2020, and the buyers of the 11 may regret their purchase.
I personally shoot photos and videos with my iPhone all the time. They're crappy, but they're photographs -- spectacular sunsets (I live in the desert west), dog chasing balls, snapshots of my garden in full bloom, and, many times, food products in grocery stores which I send to my wife to see if that's what she was telling me to get. I view them at the same place I shoot them, on my phone.
Some pro photographers may make great photos with their iPhones, but it's not because of the camera, but despite it. There's little point to it other than to show what you can do with a tiny camera, that you could have done way better with a better camera.
People have talked forever about the problems of pixels that are too small -- that you really don't want a 50mp m4/3 because you lose to much in other qualities what you gain in resolution. Is that not operative with cell phones, whose chips are smaller than my little fingernail?
High quality photography isn't going away, it's simply shrinking back to what it was in the 60s before "Blow Up," which told a lot of nerds that they could photograph naked models complete with pubic hair. I remember those days, before "Blow Up," and quality cameras -- Leicas and such -- were quite rare. The camera companies will only go broke if they try to keep staffing and research and general scale as it was when digital first broke, when they were selling an upgraded new camera every year. They have to shrink, and go back to elongated research and development; remember when F-series cameras from Nikon were refreshed every six or seven years? Like that.
I personally have three levels of serious cameras. An RX100, a complete two body GX8 m4/3 system, and a D800/Z6 which share lenses until the other Z lenses appear. I'm pretty sure I'll keep an RX100 equivalent for the rest of my life, because they can take serious photos; I'll have a bigger camera of some kind, although probably not two different sets; and I'll have a cell phone, which I'll use for spontaneous dog photos and grocery items. Cell phones can take useful photos, it's just that in absolute photographic terms, they're crappy.
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It is not a zoom.
I see. So when they say '2x optical zoom', they just mean that it is a prime with double the focal length of the 'Wide' lens?
I wish the two-lens iPhone 11 included this standard lens rather than the 13mm Ultrawide.
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I see. So when they say '2x optical zoom', they just mean that it is a prime with double the focal length of the 'Wide' lens?...
Correct.
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Another area that hasn't come up much in this post... I know an in-house photographer for an organization that hires me regularly for shoots. Often they send us both out together on documentary shoots (yeah something different than my usual...) I am shooting the heavy lifting images and b-roll video... while they are shooting with an iphone rig. Their work goes straight to social media in real time virtually. I've shot tethered to a router and laptop linked straight via my cellphone to dropbox for clients to have actual images in real time. It's cumbersome and needs a backpack. I know several photographers that are shooting gigs that bring an iphone because the image is more than plenty for social and web use. And they are able to send images out immediately. The editing is built into the phone, they can tag, caption, GPS coordinates, upload, etc... all from the SAME DEVICE. It's a whole different game if time is of the essence.
A lot of us have different end goals with out photography, so a phone has never seemed like the proper tool. (yes...I really resonate with the ergonomics bit of that...) However, if any "real" camera could process, data infuse, and push out imagery to the world with the sheer speed and efficiency of a phone, we would be living in another world. I'de replace all my cameras today if they released replacements with these features built in. My cameras have wifi and can do these tasks when connected to my phone... in a rough or basic way... but the experience and ease is not the same at all.
The phone is more than capable as a point and shoot camera...but its connectivity makes it far more powerful as a tool.
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@John Camp, I agree with much you say; perhaps optimistically, the downward sales trends I see are very consistent to a post-transition settling down to ILC body and lens sales still higher than they ever were with film — helped by there being far more people in developing countries who can afford them.
But on iPhone 12 rumors, here’s my favorite quote of the week from another forum:
“Unannounced future products are always awesome”
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Maybe because the level of image quality of an iPhone Pro 11 is close to what APS-C DSLRs were offering 6-7 years ago?
Cheers,
Bernard
Phone cameras are really quite good these days. Here's a shot from a Google Pixel phone (first generation) that my wife captured (sorry for my copyright watermark) on a trip earlier this year. I've printed it at 11x17 so it can hang in our house. Color and details are quite good right out of the box. The new Pixel camera is coming out shortly and it will be interesting to see how that phone stacks up with the new iPhone. Most young people care about posting pictures quickly on social media and you cannot beat a camera phone in that regard. If they don't care about printing images the phone camera is likely the only one they will ever need.
Alan
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Exactly Alan! Image quality is getting very reasonable and is progressing much faster thks to investments probably 10 to 100 times higher than the combined effort of all camera manufacturers combined.
With one essential key word: computational photography!
Plus, let’s be realistic here, the auto WB alone is much better on phones than on most DSLRs. And pleasing colors are more important to most casual photographers than noise free images and superb details.
This and the connectivity advantage + ability to edit on the fly + the native cloud back up + the waterproofness (the iphone pro 11 is probably the best underwater camera on the market as we speak simply because its screen enables you to see soo much better than that of an Olympus TG-5),...
Convenience trumps ergonomics... and in fact even ergonomics is up for discussion when you think about the full experience beyond image capture itself. The screens of phones for example are so much better that image review on the back of a cheap APS-C DSLR becomes a clearly unpleasant experience that can give the impression that the image quality is much lower on the camera.
Touch interface is much smoother,...
Cheers,
Bernard
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<snip>
This and the connectivity advantage + ability to edit on the fly + the native cloud back up + the waterproofness (the iphone pro 11 is probably the best underwater camera on the market as we speak simply because its screen enables you to see soo much better than that of an Olympus TG-5),...
<snip>
iPhone 11 Pro is rated IP68. That is not good enough for an underwater camera. It's a water-resistant, not waterproof phone. Swimming with the phone is not recommended and submerging it in salty water is definitely a no-no.
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iPhone 11 Pro is rated IP68. That is not good enough for an underwater camera. It's a water-resistant, not waterproof phone. Swimming with the phone is not recommended and submerging it in salty water is definitely a no-no.
That means waterproof up to 4m for up to 30 mins. I have snorkeled with a 7, a 3 years old design with a much lower level of wateproofness without any issue.
Now I have not checked Apple’s policy on immersion in sea water.
But anyway, this was really a minor point.
Cheers,
Bernard
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...Swimming with the phone is not recommended and submerging it in salty water is definitely a no-no.
I was snorkeling with iPhone X Max in salty water for 30 min. No problems.
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That means waterproof up to 4m for up to 30 mins. I have snorkeled with a 7, a 3 years old design with a much lower level of wateproofness without any issue.
Now I have not checked Apple’s policy on immersion in sea water.
But anyway, this was really a minor point.
Cheers,
Bernard
The fact that you and Slobodan had no problem snorkeling with your iPhones does not mean it should be done.
Apple recommends explicitly against swimming and bathing with the iPhone 7 (https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207043).
Apple says that water and other liquid damage to the iPhone isn't covered (https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204104)
Apple says that iPhone Pros are rated for water resistance (not waterproofed) up to 4 meters for up to 30 minutes (https://apple.co/2lPiqYL). For a difference between water-resistant and waterproofed, think of jackets.
Of course, everyone is free to do with their iPhones what they want .. or with their iPads: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2gQE0J00UE
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Except that that the 8 in IP68 is very specifically defined as the resistance to immersion.
“Immersion, 1 m or more depth The equipment is suitable for continuous immersion in water under conditions which shall be specified by the manufacturer. However, with certain types of equipment, it can mean that water can enter but only in such a manner that it produces no harmful effects. The test depth and duration is expected to be greater than the requirements for IPx7, and other environmental effects may be added, such as temperature cycling before immersion. Test duration: agreement with manufacturer”
Apple went through the extra trouble of specifying a depth of 4 meters which they didn’t have to and is significantly more stringent than most competing IP68 smartphones only tested at 1.5m depth.
I don’t think that the jacket example is a very good one. Any jacket that would resist immersion for 30 mins, if that existed and meant something, would most definitely be rated as waterproof.
Granted there is no mention of salt water and corrosion may happen with external metal parts even in the absence of water ingestion.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I can’t understand why anyone remotely connected to photography would even consider a phone as a replacement for a camera. Let’s for convenience say that it’s my narrow minded thinking :-[
Regards,
Jaap.
With respect, I submit that it’s you that’s narrow minded.
I just completed a multi-thousand-dollar video project, much of which was shot (sound and picture) with my phone, a Google Pixel 3A XL. Both the client and I were delighted with its performance. It enabled a style and quality of production unattainable by other systems.
I’m a (retired) cinematographer and director/cameraman with Hollywood screen credits.
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For me, the operative word is “replacement.” I never thought of that. I use the iPhone “in conjunction” with all my other cameras. And I plan to use the iPhone 11 Pro (with the Filmicsoftware) on the phone to shoot video with two of the iPhone 11 Pro’s lenses recorded simultaneously, one for closer-up and another for wide-angle. I can in post combine both for a two-shot interview effect.
I have had an iPhone for years, but this is the first time I felt I could use it for photo tasks that it can handle. I also feel that this new iPhone marks a sea-change in camera usability that will embrace actual professional photographers.
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... marks a sea-change in camera usability that will embrace actual professional photographers.
Precisely.
Forum member luxborealis (who lectures in Photography at the college level) recently returned from a trip to Ethiopia where he preferred to use his last generation iPhone for much of his excellent coverage on this once in a lifetime trip.
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I was snorkeling with iPhone X Max in salty water for 30 min. No problems.
It wouldn't be my 1st choice for underwater photography. The ergonomics of trying to focus and take an image underwater would be a total turnoff...at least for me.
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It wouldn't be my 1st choice for underwater photography. The ergonomics of trying to focus and take an image underwater would be a total turnoff...at least for me.
It isn’t perfect, but I have found that it has one tremendous advantage over the dedicated underwater cameras I have tried, in particular the best in class Olympus TG-5 (the 6 may be better), its screen.
Depending on snorkeling conditions, the screen of the Olympus is at best somewhere btw totally unusable (can’t see anything at all) to very unpleasant to use (can barely see something) while the old iphone 7 was a joy to shoot with perfect visibility under water.
Cheers,
Bernard
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The traditional digital camera market is running around 20m units a year, down from 120m ten years ago or so. Apple sold over 200m cameras with integral phones last year, and they have perhaps 15% of the market. So I submit that this ship has sailed. Apple, Samsung and Huawei are the biggest camera makers in the world, and the biggest the world has ever known.
Last week my daughter (whose Nikon DLSR is gathering dust) posted images of her three girls on their first day of school taken with her iPhone X, using portrait mode, that were both technically and artistically excellent. Great color, great bokeh with suitably shallow (but not too shallow) DoF. Sharp and crystal clear, at least when viewed as intended, on a screen. I doubt she did any editing; perhaps she straightened them, but I don’t think even that happened.
I also posted some pictures of the girls I took over the weekend with my ILC, carefully processed in LR. Also excellent (IMHO). But definitely no better than hers.
Are there images I can get with my kit that she can’t with her phone? Sure.
Do I enjoy shooting with my kit more than with a phone? Sure.
But none of that matters. Apple et al are the leading camera makers today. Canon, Nikon, Sony and the others are rapidly becoming (or already are) niche players in a declining niche.
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With respect, I submit that it’s you that’s narrow minded.
I just completed a multi-thousand-dollar video project, much of which was shot (sound and picture) with my phone, a Google Pixel 3A XL. Both the client and I were delighted with its performance. It enabled a style and quality of production unattainable by other systems.
I’m a (retired) cinematographer and director/cameraman with Hollywood screen credits.
Peter, how would you compare the latest models of Google Pixel with latest iPhones for still images and video?
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A good summary bassman51.
There is a “gamut” of photographic situations where the results of a camera-phone can be indistinguishable on-screen or in prints up to as big as most people ever want from what any “bigger, better” camera gives. But also plenty of interesting photographic opportunities outside that gamut, like any significant degree of telephoto, especially with subject motion to freeze.
I’ll just point out that Kodak was probably the leading camera maker (by unit sales) over a very long run, with cameras like Brownies, Instamatics and disk cameras. But that numerical dominance left plenty of room for other companies to keep offering ever-improving higher quality gear. So I do not fear for ILCs, and the world of bigger aperture sizes and the bigger sensors needed behind them.
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Omg, I just realized there is one category or users that is going to send iPhone Pro demand through the roof: real estate agents. They are already using iPhones most of the time, and resort to pros only for ultra-wide angle shots, which make a tiny studio look like a stadium. Imagine how gaga they are going to go over the 13mm lens!
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Is anybody really going to buy an iPhone 11 because it has a better camera other than as a rationalization?
Yes, I'll be doing just that.
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"Is anybody really going to buy an iPhone 11 because it has a better camera other than as a rationalization?"
The operative question is: A better camera for what?
And YES, I already have.
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There is good review of new camera features on Verge:
https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/17/20868727/apple-iphone-11-pro-max-review-camera-battery-life-screen-midnight-green-price (https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/17/20868727/apple-iphone-11-pro-max-review-camera-battery-life-screen-midnight-green-price)
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I hate having to hit a virtual button on the screen to take a photo.
My Samsung cameras (RIP) had voice activated shutter. Fantastic.
My Google Pixel 3 inexplicably lacks this extraordinarily useful function.
I may ditch it and change back to Samsung for this reason alone.
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Peter, how would you compare the latest models of Google Pixel with latest iPhones for still images and video?
I can't compare since I've not used a late model Apple phone camera. From what little I've seen, there's not a lot of difference between any of the latest phone cameras.
I do find the Google Pixel camera extraordinary, the lack of voice-activated shutter notwithstanding.
The always-in-your-shirt-pocket factor trumps nearly everything else, IMHO. There's no beating the always-there factor. Not including, however, specialty shooting aspects like BIF, large print landscapes, focus stacking, camera movements etc.
I shot some excellent "street" video recently. Subject matter impossible to shoot with a pro video camera was effortless with my Pixel. Nobody noticed, nobody cared.
Both video and audio were excellent and, more important, unattainable otherwise. That's huge.
Canon's predictions are on the money, I think. P&S cameras are toast.
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https://www.dpreview.com/articles/8502557865/the-iphone-11-is-much-more-than-apple-catching-up-to-android
Cheers,
Bernard
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I was all ready to write a post being all scathing about the idea of using a phone for anything other than showing off how you could do it and didn’t need any fancy equipment. Then yesterday I picked up a day shoot, video, and was asked specifically to shoot it on a phone, normal day rate. So there you go. What do I know.
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Then yesterday I picked up a day shoot, video, and was asked specifically to shoot it on a phone, normal day rate.
Gotta love it. I convinced a recent client that in some cases, my phone could do a better job than a big-ass video camera. She agreed and we were both right. The results proved it. The subject matter was elementary school kids and sports. Unlike the customary "when's this going to be on TV?" attitude from the kids, they simply ignored my phone. And me. In other words, perfect.
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Gotta love it. I convinced a recent client that in some cases, my phone could do a better job than a big-ass video camera. She agreed and we were both right. The results proved it. The subject matter was elementary school kids and sports. Unlike the customary "when's this going to be on TV?" attitude from the kids, they simply ignored my phone. And me. In other words, perfect.
The smarphones have been recognized as useful for serious video capture for quite a while. What kind of gear did you attach to the phone for video shooting?
For photography, the smartphones have been less successful as a replacement but rather as a fill-in when "real" cameras are not available.
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What kind of gear did you attach to the phone for video shooting?
Nothing. The Google Pixel 3 XL has pretty good IS. The real benefits were ease of placement in difficult situations like extreme low angles, POVs and close to the talent. The kids ignoring the camera was probably the best feature, as well as slo mo, which at 120 FPS was very useful.
The phone was used as a “second unit” camera, both sound and pix. The “A” camera, a Sony RX10 IV, was used for interviews and the dialog track. Phones aren’t much good for that use case, lacking a mic input. Sound from the phone’s mic was used throughout as background sound.
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Gear I have ready and will be using with the Apple iPhone 11 Pro which I will receive tomorrow includes:
Shure MV88 ioS Digital Stereo Condenser Microphone (+ windscreen)
Bluetooth Camera Remote Shutter for Smartphone
Cellphone Tripod Mount (Arca-Swiss)
DJI Osmo Mobile 3 Smartphone Gimbal (or similar)
Filmic Software for Gimbal
Mini Tripod Stand with Arca/Swiss
Gitzo Monopod with Arca/Swiss
AOKA Compact Carbon Fiber Tripod with Arca/Swiss
There are probably things I am not thinking of, but I am taking this seriously. Just came back from an event where I had probably 80lbs of video and still equipment. My days for that are numbered. If I can make the iPhone 11 Pro work for some of the travel work, it would be nice.
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Looks good!
You may consider a portable power bank (even with the extended battery life, Filmic Pro is a power hungry app, especially if you use high bitrate).
Additionally, if you have another iphone or ipad, you might consider Filmic remote
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I will just pick up a gimbal. If client wants the shoot done on a phone I am not going to try pretend it’s anything else.
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I will just pick up a gimbal. If client wants the shoot done on a phone I am not going to try pretend it’s anything else.
+1