Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: hubell on April 29, 2019, 11:57:41 am
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My Epson 9900 has developed a problem in the orange channel. The Nozzle Check printout shows 3 or 4 lines completely missing in the middle of the orange channel grid. I have tried repeated cleanings, including CL4 level cleanings in the Service Mode. I have also tried using a paper towel soaked with Windex and positioning it behind the print head overnight. I have had many nozzle clogs over the years but they all eventually cleared. This problem appears to be beyond a mere clog, and I suspect the print head needs to be replaced. The cost in labor and materials to replace the head is between $2k and $2.5k. Not really cost effective for an 8 year old printer. I would be better off just buying a new printer. However, I am wondering about the practical significance in terms of print quality of losing part of the nozzles in the orange channel. Is the orange channel only used by the printer to handle certain warm colors that would otherwise be out of gamut with the yellow and two magenta inks?
TIA.
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Howard:
If you haven't noticed any decline in IQ, I doubt it's worth fussing with. Usually problems with Lt M & Lt C channels will show up in most prints. Orange, would probably never be noticable especially in Landscape work. Milk the printer for all it's worth! My HP 3100 is 12 years old and still going strong, after a drive belt replacement, and a service station replacement a few years ago. But just got my Z3200 going, after a great close-out deal last fall.
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Howard:
If you haven't noticed any decline in IQ, I doubt it's worth fussing with. Usually problems with Lt M & Lt C channels will show up in most prints. Orange, would probably never be noticable especially in Landscape work. Milk the printer for all it's worth! My HP 3100 is 12 years old and still going strong, after a drive belt replacement, and a service station replacement a few years ago. But just got my Z3200 going, after a great close-out deal last fall.
Hi, John. Good to hear from you. That's very helpful advice about my orange channel clog, or whatever it is. I have been totally preoccupied printing a series of recent photographs from Iceland, and not a lot of orange there so I have not noticed anything from the missing nozzles in the orange channel.
I will take your advice and try to run my 9900 into the ground. The newer Epson printers do not seem to have appreciably improved in terms of mechanical functioning or reliability. The key diiference is apparently the new yellow ink, which accounts for the improved archival ratings. I remember you were a big fan of the HP printers. It seems that a lot of people with long experience in the printing business feel the same way.
Best, Howard
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I had the same problem in the yellow channel on my Epson 9900.
I just created a new ICC profile which was a bit smaller (Colorthink) but no differences detected in comparing with some old evaluation print images.
If you do the same your new icc profile can compensate very well your 3-4 lines missing in the orange channel.
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I had the same problem in the yellow channel on my Epson 9900.
I just created a new ICC profile which was a bit smaller (Colorthink) but no differences detected in comparing with some old evaluation print images.
If you do the same your new icc profile can compensate very well your 3-4 lines missing in the orange channel.
Thanks, but if the orange channel is “never” called out by the driver to supply orange ink in the printing of typical photographic images, why would I need a new icc Profile for the papers I use?
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In your original post you wrote "The Nozzle Check printout shows 3 or 4 lines completely missing in the middle of the orange channel grid" and that means that your printer injects less orange ink when printing and that affects the color gamut.
You have to create a new icc profile to compensate for that imbalance.
The printer driver just tells you when the cartridge is almost empty and need to be replace.
It will never tells you if you have a clogged channel only a nozzle check print will shows it.
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I’m the “proud” owner of (2) 9900’s. The oldest of the 2, bought in early 2010, finally had a printhead failure about 6 months ago with the yellow channel. I decided to keep it for parts in hopes to keep the other running for a least another year. Over the course of January the second printer showed signs of the orange channel going out. It was hit and miss depending on subject matter if the output was being effected. Last week the channel went almost completely out. Just 2 orange lines are printing top and bottom on the nozzle check. Unfortunately, I’m not in a position to replace the machines just yet. Replacing the printheads are out of the question given the cost (even if I attempt to do it myself) verses the cost of new machines. I had/have work in-house that still needed printed so out of desperation I deleted the printer from my system (Mac) and reinstalled it using the 9890 driver hoping that it would work given the printers are similar less the orange and green channels. To my amazement it worked and the output looks good. I’m not sure what the long tern ramifications of doing so are but given the printer was going to electronics recycling if figured it was worth a try. I thought this info might help someone out there with a bad orange or green channel.
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Thanks, but if the orange channel is “never” called out by the driver to supply orange ink in the printing of typical photographic images, why would I need a new icc Profile for the papers I use?
In my opinion you do not need a new icc profile unless you have good a reason to suspect that the profile you are currently using is flawed/corrupted. A new profile will not compensate for lost nozzles, although it might help mitigate the issue to some small degree. Also, just because you might be printing images that don't seem to include any orange colours doesn't mean that the printer is not using the orange ink. As an example, one might think that the LLK is almost never used since there doesn't seem to be any light light black in many images. Quite the contrary, the LLK is one of or perhaps the most used of all of the inks, since it's often combined with many other colours for tonal reasons. Start a log on ink usage and you will very likely find that you are replacing the LLK more often than any other ink. Coming back to the icc profile - take into consideration that if the profiling target print is lacking some colours due to nozzle drop outs, orange or otherwise, it will not be able to create a totally accurate profile for the ink paper combination. You might believe that it has compensated for the nozzle drop outs, but you may simply not be seeing the difference unless you have a reference print done while all nozzles were firing properly to compare with. And then of course there's the banding issues you would confront when you need to print a Halloween shot with all of those pumpkins or perhaps a bowl full of oranges. Good luck with that.
What it all boils down to is that you are probably looking at a head replacement and possibly two with your most recent information. However, as John has mentioned, the issue is often in the eye of the beholder. Therefore you might be lucky enough not to get those Halloween images to print and you may be able to steer away from the bowl of oranges long enough to keep printing for a while yet. My 2010 9900 had at least three head replacements under warranty, which caused me to extend the warranty to the 3 year max. In January 2016 the green channel crapped out to the point where it could not be retrieved, so I did replace the print head and of course all was well. In January 2017 I sold the 9900, moved my business to my home and purchased a SC-P7000 with which I've been quite satisfied. Still ticking, both me and the printer.
Gary
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I have also tried using a paper towel soaked with Windex and positioning it behind the print head overnight.
I hope this old time “fix” that is dangerous for the modern heads Epson makes dies someday. Windex can break down some of the delicate components in epson heads. Soaked long enough, distilled water is every bit as effective and safer for the heads. We have seen several customers completely kill their heads trying to clear a couple of nozzles using windex over the past several years.
Certainly some images will show very little ill effect, but photographic print use more orange than you might think. Some images of sunsets or similar scenes may show a loss of saturation or even banding.
I have heard of 9900 users installing the 9890 drivers and using that to drive the printer, which ignores the orange and green channels. It would require using the 9890 profiles or making new profiles. Not sure if this hack still works or not with current epson drivers.
A printer that old has served a very useful life, seems dumping money into it for new heads when a new p8000 can be had for around $3300 might not make sense.
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I hope this old time “fix” that is dangerous for the modern heads Epson makes dies someday. Windex can break down some of the delicate components in epson heads. Soaked long enough, distilled water is every bit as effective and safer for the heads. We have seen several customers completely kill their heads trying to clear a couple of nozzles using windex over the past several years.
Certainly some images will show very little ill effect, but photographic print use more orange than you might think. Some images of sunsets or similar scenes may show a loss of saturation or even banding.
I have heard of 9900 users installing the 9890 drivers and using that to drive the printer, which ignores the orange and green channels. It would require using the 9890 profiles or making new profiles. Not sure if this hack still works or not with current epson drivers.
A printer that old has served a very useful life, seems dumping money into it for new heads when a new p8000 can be had for around $3300 might not make sense.
I agree. I wouldn't even think of replacing the head in my 9900 for $2500 when I can buy a new P8000 for $3300. However, I just loaded a complete set of new inks into the printer, which cost me around $1200 as I recall, so I want to print through that batch of inks (350 ml carts). I am sure it's JUST a coincidence, but it was only after I replaced the inks with a new set of inks and ran an initial fill with the service menu to clear out the old ink that the orange channel showed a clog.
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Why would you replace a whole set at a time and then do an initial fill. The process is replace one ink at a time when the printer actually stops long after that first warning. Not necessary to do what you did unless of course the printer set unused for several years.
These inks last forever and I do mean forever. I am still using my 10 year old 9900 along with a new P8000 and z3200.
I am one of those that spent $3100 two years ago to replace the head and a lh ink bay as well as the docking station on the 9900.
It was well worth it for me as I refill with OEM inks and had over 10,000ml on hand. If I don't fix the printer all that K3 is unusable at least for me.
I purchase OEM inks from folks like yourself that are moving to another printer. The dates on these inks go way back too so don't throw away out of date carts. Empty carts can have as much as 30ml still in them so that is another cash cow for us scavengers.
I was just curious why you replaced a whole set at one time and did an init fill?
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I hope this old time “fix” that is dangerous for the modern heads Epson makes dies someday. Windex can break down some of the delicate components in epson heads. Soaked long enough, distilled water is every bit as effective and safer for the heads. We have seen several customers completely kill their heads trying to clear a couple of nozzles using windex over the past several years.
Certainly some images will show very little ill effect, but photographic print use more orange than you might think. Some images of sunsets or similar scenes may show a loss of saturation or even banding.
I have heard of 9900 users installing the 9890 drivers and using that to drive the printer, which ignores the orange and green channels. It would require using the 9890 profiles or making new profiles. Not sure if this hack still works or not with current epson drivers.
A printer that old has served a very useful life, seems dumping money into it for new heads when a new p8000 can be had for around $3300 might not make sense.
Hi Wayne,
I totally agree with your opinion concerning the use of cleaning products such as Windex to perhaps clear the nozzles on an Epson print head. It has been documented here on LuLa several times by myself and others that these kind of products can, over time, be much more problematic than useful. And apparently Windex or any other brand that uses ammonia can be a killer for these heads. Distilled water is the ONLY thing I would use. However, having said that, the tech who replaced the head in my 9900 in 2016 had with him what he referred to as the best head cleaning product which had apparently been endorsed by Epson. He said he would get some for me, but I sold the printer before I heard from him again. The product he used to clean a couple of other parts was a red liquid that reminded me of the one that
is sold on this site https://international.inkjetmall.com/ , but I cannot say it is the same product. Nevertheless, products such as Windex should never be used for this purpose. The tech also mentioned the possibility of installing the 9890 driver for the 9900 and using the John Cone Piezography Inks for B&W and Toned printing. I imagine this has been done in many situations where either the Green or Orange channel is not retrievable. A couple of ways to revive an older model Epson Wide Format printer.
Gary
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When one head goes the others aren't far behind, just expect and check for lower image quality in any image that has any gold/yellow/ orange in it. When my 9900 started going out I was still able to make good monochrome prints until the black channels also went out.
But I'd suggest you start saving up for a replacement asap, and if you don't have the money for new you can often pick a used Canon ipf8300/8400 for under $2,000.
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Why would you replace a whole set at a time and then do an initial fill. The process is replace one ink at a time when the printer actually stops long after that first warning. Not necessary to do what you did unless of course the printer set unused for several years.
These inks last forever and I do mean forever. I am still using my 10 year old 9900 along with a new P8000 and z3200.
I am one of those that spent $3100 two years ago to replace the head and a lh ink bay as well as the docking station on the 9900.
It was well worth it for me as I refill with OEM inks and had over 10,000ml on hand. If I don't fix the printer all that K3 is unusable at least for me.
I purchase OEM inks from folks like yourself that are moving to another printer. The dates on these inks go way back too so don't throw away out of date carts. Empty carts can have as much as 30ml still in them so that is another cash cow for us scavengers.
I was just curious why you replaced a whole set at one time and did an init fill?
"These inks last forever and I do mean forever." I assume you mean the printers last forever, not the inks. All of the inks in my 9900 were long expired. There are, let's say, differences of opinion as to the effects of using long-expired inks, both visually and operationally. Some say that there are no visually observable differences in using long expired inks (i.e., expired by more than one year) v. fresh inks. Others say their experience is different. For example, https://www.brucepercy.co.uk/blog/2016/12/22/epson-ink-expiry-dates?rq=ink.
I did the initial fill procedure because I wanted to clear out all of the old ink in one fell swoop. I had several large prints to deliver, and I wanted to be sure I was using fresh ink for them.
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Why would you replace a whole set at a time and then do an initial fill. The process is replace one ink at a time when the printer actually stops long after that first warning. Not necessary to do what you did unless of course the printer set unused for several years.
These inks last forever and I do mean forever. I am still using my 10 year old 9900 along with a new P8000 and z3200.
I am one of those that spent $3100 two years ago to replace the head and a lh ink bay as well as the docking station on the 9900.
It was well worth it for me as I refill with OEM inks and had over 10,000ml on hand. If I don't fix the printer all that K3 is unusable at least for me.
I purchase OEM inks from folks like yourself that are moving to another printer. The dates on these inks go way back too so don't throw away out of date carts. Empty carts can have as much as 30ml still in them so that is another cash cow for us scavengers.
I was just curious why you replaced a whole set at one time and did an init fill?
In my long experience of printing with the Epson 9900 I can tell you that old inks are unstable in term of color accuracy.
Two years after the expiration date and it's almost impossible to get a neutral gray scale.
You begin to notice some strong magenta cast especially on BW images.
Not even with new ICC profiles you can rid of that color shift.
All my conclusions are based on color measurements with an i1Pro and not just by eye.
If you don't care much about color accuracy as most people do you can still print with old inks.
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Hi Wayne,
I totally agree with your opinion concerning the use of cleaning products such as Windex to perhaps clear the nozzles on an Epson print head. It has been documented here on LuLa several times by myself and others that these kind of products can, over time, be much more problematic than useful. And apparently Windex or any other brand that uses ammonia can be a killer for these heads. Distilled water is the ONLY thing I would use. However, having said that, the tech who replaced the head in my 9900 in 2016 had with him what he referred to as the best head cleaning product which had apparently been endorsed by Epson. He said he would get some for me, but I sold the printer before I heard from him again. The product he used to clean a couple of other parts was a red liquid that reminded me of the one that
is sold on this site https://international.inkjetmall.com/ , but I cannot say it is the same product. Nevertheless, products such as Windex should never be used for this purpose. The tech also mentioned the possibility of installing the 9890 driver for the 9900 and using the John Cone Piezography Inks for B&W and Toned printing. I imagine this has been done in many situations where either the Green or Orange channel is not retrievable. A couple of ways to revive an older model Epson Wide Format printer.
Gary
My understanding, which I admit was just that, was that the "original" Windex was safe, but not the newer formulations of Windex.
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A note to users of expired inks. I too use 1-2 year expired inks, which I shop for on ebay, but this is for an HP printer, that has user replaceable print heads that are cheap $64/ 2 colors. I would be more careful with Epson printers though.
Pigmented inks are a suspension, and do settle and coagulate with time. The coagulation of pigments is what can clog the print head. Even with vigorous shaking, they are difficult if not impossible to re-suspend well. Canon, Epson and HP do have additives in the ink to keep them suspended, and tend to work quite well, but I would still be very careful about using expired inks, especially in Epson printers where print head replacement is a costly venture.
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A note to users of expired inks. I too use 1-2 year expired inks, which I shop for on ebay, but this is for an HP printer, that has user replaceable print heads that are cheap $64/ 2 colors. I would be more careful with Epson printers though.
Pigmented inks are a suspension, and do settle and coagulate with time. The coagulation of pigments is what can clog the print head. Even with vigorous shaking, they are difficult if not impossible to re-suspend well. Canon, Epson and HP do have additives in the ink to keep them suspended, and tend to work quite well, but I would still be very careful about using expired inks, especially in Epson printers where print head replacement is a costly venture.
While I'm waiting for Dan Berg to chime in again, as I'm certain he will and for good reason probably, I will say that I do have some degree of uncertainty about Dans approach of recovering used inks for the Epson 9900. However, I've followed Dan for a number of years here on LuLa and I believe he is not one to take chances with either his equipment or the prints he produces. Therefore, if he had any uncertainty about a particular ink I'm pretty sure he would toss it immediately. Obviously this process works for Dan and apparently he has not yet experienced a situation that might have caused him to give up on the use of expired inks.
I agree with some of what you have written John, however, one statement jumped out at me immediately "Even with vigorous shaking, they are difficult if not impossible to re-suspend well". Vigorously shaking of any of the Epson Ink Carts can and likely will introduce many more and various issues than using an expired ink. I refer to Epson carts only because I am not familiar with the other two brands. That's one of the reasons for the gentle swaying back and forth of the Epson wide format printers when mounted on their proper stand. That motion in itself helps to keep the ink in suspension and for the most part it seems to be handling the issue quite well. That's not to say that a gentle manual agitation occasionally should be overlooked. Indeed it is a very good approach to help mitigate so called "Clogs".
Gary
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Gary:
The point I was trying to make, was that vigorous shaking could not break up coagulated pigments, unlike gentle shaking to redistribute slightly settled ink. Two things going on with old ink.
1) pigments coagulating forming larger clumps that can clog jets. 2) piegments settling, causing off color printing. Off color printing is especially noticeable on Epsons with Lt Magenta, and Lt. Cyan channels.
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Gary:
The point I was trying to make, was that vigorous shaking could not break up coagulated pigments, unlike gentle shaking to redistribute slightly settled ink. Two things going on with old ink.
1) pigments coagulating forming larger clumps that can clog jets. 2) piegments settling, causing off color printing. Off color printing is especially noticeable on Epsons with Lt Magenta, and Lt. Cyan channels.
Hi John,
I'm quite familiar with the concept of the settling of pigment inks, although I've never experienced coagulation, which is quite a different situation. Hence the idea of occasionally doing a gentle manual agitation, not only when installing a new cart. Unfortunately ink carts are not supplied with a hydrometer to measure the specific gravity of their contents. If so we could just take quick a peek and realize that it might be time to gently agitate that particular cart. I might be wrong, but I think you may have been exaggerating when you mentioned the vigorous shaking routine to make your point, which you did quite well. My reason for replying to that particular part of your post was to make sure that perhaps some newer members here might have misinterpreted that statement to mean that is quite acceptable to agitate a cart in that manner, which of course is not true. Oh Oh, here"s another one - "Off color printing is especially noticeable on Epsons with Lt Magenta, and Lt. Cyan channels". I've been using Epson wide format printers since 2003 with two SP7600 printers followed by the 9900 and now the SC-P7000, and have never experienced Off Colour Printing specifically related to the Lt Magenta and Lt Cyan channels. Not saying that it couldn't happen, just that I personally haven't seen that issue. If what you are referring to is issues such as banding, that could and probably would cause a situation that might be described as Off Colour, since obviously some of the nozzles are not firing properly. However, in that state the banding issue itself is usually the most obvious problem. Of course all of these issues can be easily overcome by simply printing a nozzle check and then running whatever maintenance procedure it necessary.
Gary
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For me draining and refilling K3 inks has worked for 10 years. I have had Epson's 7900,9900,9890 and a new P8000.
I try to keep 1 pigment ink printer with up to date inks. (To me that is within 2 years out of date.)
A lot of the prints are workshop printing samples and are not for resale.
I replaced the 2010 Epson 9900 printhead in 2017 and that printer is the best one I have
They look absolutely fantastic with inks back to 2014. My ink costs for these printers are down 75% a number you just cannot ignore.
I would certainly never change all the inks at one time unnecessarily and never do an init fill. If it is something you feel that strongly about by all means do your own thing. I will continue to enjoy my .05 per ml ink cost.
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Pigmented inks are a suspension, and do settle and coagulate with time. The coagulation of pigments is what can clog the print head. Even with vigorous shaking, they are difficult if not impossible to re-suspend well. Canon, Epson and HP do have additives in the ink to keep them suspended, and tend to work quite well
there’s a big difference between settling and coagulating. I’ve never seen any evidence of suspended particles in epson inks coagulating (sticking together in big clumps). I know there was an extensive thread a few years ago about ink settling out, but the main point in that thread was trying to use a centrifuge to simulate what would happen over time, and at the time I didn’t feel that approach was valid (and still don’t).
I haven’t been agitating my Epson cartridges for several years now. Every couple of months I print Bill Atkinson test page and compare it to the original page I printed when I installed the printer, and I have seen no color drift in this machine in 3 years now. Some of my inks I go through pretty quickly, but others may be in the printer a year or more. I do use different size cartridges in the printer based on how fast colors are used (blacks are all 700, orange and green are 150 ml, all the others are 350ml. ). This avoid excessive length of time for any one color.
There is some agitation of the inks as the printer prints. There is also some agitation due to the pressurizing and collapsing of the bag that contains the ink each time the printer does this (which is more often than just when it is shut down). The suspensions are designed to be easily maintained.
As far as vigorous shaking, I would caution against that, and do feel it is unnecessary. When I buy a new cartridge I gently agitate with it laying flat, rotating it constantly for several minutes. Of course I also don’t buy expired inks so I have less concern than others, but there are plenty of epson users that have done very well (such as Dan) which indicates coagulation isn’t a problem.
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My Epson 9900 has developed a problem in the orange channel. The Nozzle Check printout shows 3 or 4 lines completely missing in the middle of the orange channel grid. I have tried repeated cleanings, including CL4 level cleanings in the Service Mode. I have also tried using a paper towel soaked with Windex and positioning it behind the print head overnight. I have had many nozzle clogs over the years but they all eventually cleared. This problem appears to be beyond a mere clog, and I suspect the print head needs to be replaced. The cost in labor and materials to replace the head is between $2k and $2.5k. Not really cost effective for an 8 year old printer. I would be better off just buying a new printer. However, I am wondering about the practical significance in terms of print quality of losing part of the nozzles in the orange channel. Is the orange channel only used by the printer to handle certain warm colors that would otherwise be out of gamut with the yellow and two magenta inks?
TIA.
FWIW, Ink Jet Mall sells Piezoflush, a cleaning liquid designed specifically for this. I don't know if it's any better than windex, but worth a try perhaps?
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FWIW, Ink Jet Mall sells Piezoflush, a cleaning liquid designed specifically for this. I don't know if it's any better than windex, but worth a try perhaps?
I tried it on my 9900 and it didn't work. Once the head is dead it's dead.
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FWIW, Ink Jet Mall sells Piezoflush, a cleaning liquid designed specifically for this. I don't know if it's any better than windex, but worth a try perhaps?
As far as I know Epson has never issued a statement about the InkJet Mall cleaning fluid being hazardous to the print head, but they have certainly done so concerning Windex, especially the type that contains ammonia. Whether or not the InkJet Mall product cleans the print head remains to be seen, but apparently it is at least safe to use for that purpose. Therefore, in that respect I would say it is better.