Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Mirrorless Cameras => Topic started by: dseelig on February 12, 2019, 10:32:31 pm
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So today I had the Canon R and Nikon Z7 in my hands. I could not stand the Nikon it has a viewfinder lag from hell. If you shoot people well it for me is a joke. Size wise like my sonys it is just to small with my pinky having no place to go. The Canon R was the best of the three that way but it has a Canon lack of dynamic range sensor. The af is not as good as Sony. So Sony is still it as the af is the best of the three.
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So today I had the Canon R and Nikon Z7 in my hands. I could not stand the Nikon it has a viewfinder lag from hell. If you shoot people well it for me is a joke. Size wise like my sonys it is just to small with my pinky having no place to go. The Canon R was the best of the three that way but it has a Canon lack of dynamic range sensor. The af is not as good as Sony. So Sony is still it as the af is the best of the three.
Really?
I have been using successfully a Z7 for months and never noticed nor was impacted by the lag you are talking about.
Don't know how I managed to capture such images where timing was kind of... critical. ;D
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7825/46711616921_22531ed3b8_h.jpg)
Cheers,
Bernard
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I also never noticed any lag when I played with the Z6. Actually I’m a little jealous of the Nikon viewfinder. Not enough to change my entire Sony system for but it really is very good.
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Don't know how I managed
As you know even broken clock shows the proper time twice a day... that's about posting a single picture as a proof of something
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As you know even broken clock shows the proper time twice a day... that's about posting a single picture as a proof of something
This was a very specific attempt to freeze the motion of this kid in a given time frame and I managed to succeed doing so.
This would not have been possible had the camera been impacted by the kind of horrible lag reported by the OP.
Cheers,
Bernard
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There is enough people reporting a viewfinder lag that i’m sure it’s there...maybe it does not affect the way some people shoot and it’s there for others.
As far as precisely timing that shot...it’s luck. Human reaction time from eye to brain to finger to shutter lag dictates this. That’s why sports are rattled off at a high sequence.
I believe I read somewhere that our internal delay from seeing something and then actually pressing the shutter is somewhere between 100 - 200 ms.
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There is enough people reporting a viewfinder lag that i’m sure it’s there...maybe it does not affect the way some people shoot and it’s there for others.
As far as precisely timing that shot...it’s luck. Human reaction time from eye to brain to finger to shutter lag dictates this. That’s why sports are rattled off at a high sequence.
Who else is reporting this lag? This is the first time I hear people criticizing the EVF of the Z6/Z7 always reported on so far as being best in class.
Luck has nothing to do with it. His movement was circular and predictable.
Cheers,
Bernard
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There is enough people reporting a viewfinder lag that i’m sure it’s there...maybe it does not affect the way some people shoot and it’s there for others.
As far as precisely timing that shot...it’s luck. Human reaction time from eye to brain to finger to shutter lag dictates this. That’s why sports are rattled off at a high sequence.
I believe I read somewhere that our internal delay from seeing something and then actually pressing the shutter is somewhere between 100 - 200 ms.
If not using the magnified view, e.g., for manual focusing, the EVF lag on Nikon Z cameras was measured as 25ms (https://blog.kasson.com/nikon-z6-7/z7-magnified-lcd-lag/)
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If not using the magnified view, e.g., for manual focusing, the EVF lag on Nikon Z cameras was measured as 25ms (https://blog.kasson.com/nikon-z6-7/z7-magnified-lcd-lag/)
There you go... 0.025s... while the typical reaction time of a human being is said to be around 331 ms or 0.331s.
The problem isn't the camera.
Cheers,
Bernard
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There you go... 0.025s... while the typical reaction time of a human being is said to be around 331 ms or 0.331s.
The problem isn't the camera.
Cheers,
Bernard
Human reaction time has nothing to do with it because an experienced photographer anticipates that difference. You can't anticipate what you can't see real time though. This is extremely important when capturing expressions in portraits for example. You try to invoke a reaction with a short comment and then try to capture that exact moment of subconscious reaction between now and the conscious reaction.
There is very little more satisfying than a shutter that operates as an extension of the mind. Mirrorless has a way of detaching from reality.
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Human reaction time has nothing to do with it because an experienced photographer anticipates that difference. You can't anticipate what you can't see real time though. This is extremely important when capturing expressions in portraits for example. You try to invoke a reaction with a short comment and then try to capture that exact moment of subconscious reaction between now and the conscious reaction.
There is very little more satisfying than a shutter that operates as an extension of the mind. Mirrorless has a way of detaching from reality.
The statement that mirrorless has a way of detaching from reality is entirely subjective. A photon bouncing off something and passing through a poor quality lens, turning into an electrical signal and then travelling to an organic image processor with lots of built in subjective filters is already pretty far removed from reality.
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The statement that mirrorless has a way of detaching from reality is entirely subjective. A photon bouncing off something and passing through a poor quality lens, turning into an electrical signal and then travelling to an organic image processor with lots of built in subjective filters is already pretty far removed from reality.
Haha, of course, but the organic shutter release cable attached to that system is very intricately involved in the same subjective processes. You know the difference: a perfectly timed shot comes from your spine, where the heatresponse is located.
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The mentioned 25ms is even faster than slapping the mirror out of the way in many DSLRs. To me EVF vs mirror delay are more or less of the same, in order to actually start capturing the image. This Z7 looks incredibly fast to me, not worth the trouble making an issue out of it.
Regards,
Jaap.
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Human reaction time has nothing to do with it because an experienced photographer anticipates that difference. You can't anticipate what you can't see real time though. This is extremely important when capturing expressions in portraits for example. You try to invoke a reaction with a short comment and then try to capture that exact moment of subconscious reaction between now and the conscious reaction.
There is very little more satisfying than a shutter that operates as an extension of the mind. Mirrorless has a way of detaching from reality.
Understood and agreed, but the point isn't whether EVF have more shutter lags than OVFs, of course they do.
The point is whether the Z6/Z7 have more shutter lag than other mirrorless cameras. And from the data we have it doesn't appear to be the case.
Cheers,
Bernard
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The point is whether the Z6/Z7 have more shutter lag than other mirrorless cameras. And from the data we have it doesn't appear to be the case.
Cheers,
Bernard
No, I certainly wouldn't want to suggest that. More important probably is batterylife and heat. Fuji had a boost mode which gave you a 60fps vf experience, but that would quickly drain the battery and the camera would warm up significantly.
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I have yet to detect a significant lag so I'm not sure what the OP thought he saw as I have doubts the other 2 are better on this front.
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I have yet to detect a significant lag so I'm not sure what the OP thought he saw as I have doubts the other 2 are better on this front.
Automatic image review turned on?
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Automatic image review turned on?
Not for me, I have it off on all my cameras.
Maybe he tried the magnified view? I used it little and can't recall issues with it right now.
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.... I could not stand the Nikon it has a viewfinder lag from hell. ....
so even Hell has a Viewfinder lag ;) great review ;)
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I’m sure there is some mode in which the Nikon has more viewfinder lag than one would like. These are complicated machines. YouTube is lousy with vloggers who mistook bad camera setup for bad camera performance. Picking one up in a camera store, who knows how the camera was set up?
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If not using the magnified view, e.g., for manual focusing, the EVF lag on Nikon Z cameras was measured as 25ms (https://blog.kasson.com/nikon-z6-7/z7-magnified-lcd-lag/)
That’s not the EVF but rather the rear LCD screen. Jim says he has no way of testing the lag in EVF’s.
So let’s not spread inaccurate information as it spreads pretty quickly as you can see people quickly jumping on it and saying “seee”.
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The EVF refresh rates must surely affect lag. The Z7 has a refresh rate of 60 FPS, just like the A7R2 or A73. The A7R3 and A9 have twice this rate at 120 fps.
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Note that 25ms, while nothing compared with SLR shutter lag, can be noticeable when you are looking through the viewfinder and moving the camera at the same time. The delay between the screen update the the physical movement can be noticeable and annoying (causing some kind of motion sickness).
If you listen to yourself through headphones you can detect a delay of as little as 3ms.
Musicians have difficulty playing together with 10ms of latency.
I have't used the Z7, but I can detect this lag with every EVF I have tried (though they all have been more low-end than the Z7). It doesn't bother me though, but I am sure other people are more sensitive to this kind of stuff.
PS: I found a paper about VR that claims that even 15ms of latency can cause motion sickness: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1801.07587.pdf.
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PS: I found a paper about VR that claims that even 15ms of latency can cause motion sickness: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1801.07587.pdf.
Interesting. Does this mean scanning a subject, or moving the camera a lot to reframe? I know people do that, but I watch the subject with my eyes and put the camera up just a couple of seconds (maybe) before shooting. I've seen latency with my Panasonics, but it never bothered me, really, maybe because I only experienced it for such a brief time. Is this a problem mostly for people shooting video?
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That’s not the EVF but rather the rear LCD screen. Jim says he has no way of testing the lag in EVF’s.
So let’s not spread inaccurate information as it spreads pretty quickly as you can see people quickly jumping on it and saying “seee”.
From DPR forum (https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4329178#forum-post-61785523), Jim answers:
jfriend00 wrote: Has anyone measured the actual EVF lag on the Z7 in milliseconds?
Jim Kasson: About 25 ms
If LCD lag is 25 ms, it is logical to assume that EVF lag is 25 ms or less.
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From DPR forum (https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4329178#forum-post-61785523), Jim answers:
jfriend00 wrote: Has anyone measured the actual EVF lag on the Z7 in milliseconds?
Jim Kasson: About 25 ms
If LCD lag is 25 ms, it is logical to assume that EVF lag is 25 ms or less.
Of course, yes... but our Nikon bashing Sony friends prefer to continue to spread FUD. ;)
Nothing new really, it’s been going on since the day the Z was announced.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Of course, yes... but our Nikon bashing Sony friends prefer to continue to spread FUD. ;)
Nothing new really, it’s been going on since the day the Z was announced.
Cheers,
Bernard
Umm. Not all of us.
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Umm. Not all of us.
No, you are correct. Apologies.
I have never considered you as bashing Nikon though.
Cheers,
Bernard
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From DPR forum (https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4329178#forum-post-61785523), Jim answers:
jfriend00 wrote: Has anyone measured the actual EVF lag on the Z7 in milliseconds?
Jim Kasson: About 25 ms
If LCD lag is 25 ms, it is logical to assume that EVF lag is 25 ms or less.
Why is that? The EVF resolution is quite a bit more than the rear LCD.
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Of course, yes... but our Nikon bashing Sony friends prefer to continue to spread FUD. ;)
Nothing new really, it’s been going on since the day the Z was announced.
Cheers,
Bernard
Bernard...i’m Just stating facts here. Do you have facts to provide on the refresh rate or lag on the viewfinder? Anything that you state about Nikon is golden so one must take this into account.
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Bernard...i’m Just stating facts here. Do you have facts to provide on the refresh rate or lag on the viewfinder? Anything that you state about Nikon is golden so one must take this into account.
Providing what seriousely ? I use the Z system extensively and those so called «problems « never touched my mind in all kinds of situations. Tracking AF on very low light durring fashion shows, burst with manual telephoto on quick moving horses, kids... transition from dslr was invisible, a true relief in my experience.
Stating facts here too.
All those ppl bragging about such minor non issues are, at best, boring.
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I've never seen objectionable (to me) lag with any EVF I've used. This goes all the way back to the Sony Hi-8 video cam I had in the late 1990s. Different people have different tolerance levels for this stuff, no doubt, but making blanket statements about it doesn't IMO contribute anything useful.
-Dave-
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Why is that? The EVF resolution is quite a bit more than the rear LCD.
I am not sure that the resolution matters in lag duration.
Both Jim Kasson and Thom Hogan own both Sony and Nikon Z 7 cameras and they are reporting Z 7's EVF lags between 25 ms and 17 ms. Neither of them has really measured it, but that does not mean that a significant EVF lag exists.
Maybe what the OP was thinking of is the lag between taking a picture and the time the review appears in the viewfinder (auto review). That time (> 1 sec?) is currently much longer on Z 7 cameras than on any other mirrorless camera, AFAIK.
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Quite surpringly the OP has dropped his comment and hasn’t come back to this thread in days...
Cheers,
Bernard
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I haven't (subjectively) seen a notable EVF lag on any brand in years. I'm trying to remember if the old NEX-7 had a notable lag, but I'd have to go back essentially that far to see it (or some cheaper, but more recent camera might have it). I certainly remember EVF lag from early long-zoom compacts - I once had a Canon Pro-70 (around 2000?), and that felt like it had half a second of EVF lag (plus it literally had a full second of focus lag).
I would be shocked to see a laggy viewfinder on any relatively recent pro or prosumer mirrorless from any manufacturer (and I certainly haven't handled one myself).
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Quite surpringly the OP has dropped his comment and hasn’t come back to this thread in days...
Cheers,
Bernard
Your image is incredible. You use the Z7 very well.
For me, proof of gear is confirmed by the images created by skilled photographers, not by measurements...
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Your image is incredible. You use the Z7 very well.
For me, proof of gear is confirmed by the images created by skilled photographers, not by measurements...
Very kind of you, thanks.
Cheers,
Bernard