Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: rollsman44 on January 31, 2019, 08:49:24 am
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This post will help me if I decide to sell what I have and go with one of these. I had the GFX 50s and its a great camera and IQ is excellent, especially Skin tones which is important to me. I am retired and shoot very few jobs and Mainly family and friends( which you all know is Non PAID ) I call it charity BUT I love what I do and have been for over 45 years shooting. If I had to settle down and get JUST one camera and 1 or 2 less at most I would like to choose one of the 2 mentioned. I know the Hassy costs more than the GFX but this year I know the prices will come down when the 100mp come out. Then I will see what I should do then. So, I am putting it out there to see what others can add to my thinking. Thank you. I hope the tread does NOT cause any hard feelings as it can be subjective as we all know. Thanks
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Personally the GFX, because for me the lenses are just better placed. ( I love shooting at 120mm and way above)
Both are great cameras, Fuji certainly is pushing hard and has a firm roadmap. With the X1D it’s a lot more unsure. I do believe there will be an X2D, but I also have to say we don’t have a clue what’s going on with Hasselblad.
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Hi Dennis,
Joe Colson owns and uses both systems and has done a nice comparison here: https://www.joecolsonphotography.com/2019/01/27/fuji-gfx-50s-and-hasselblad-x1d-50c-comparison/
I'm an X1D owner but have a similar viewpoint regarding his "reasons to choose GFX" and "reasons to choose X1D".
I love my X1D, but it's not the right system for everyone. I prefer the form factor and simplicity of the X1D to the GFX, but the GFX has more features at a lower price point.
Since you said you've had a GFX, I'd try to rent an X1D and then figure out which one of the two you prefer. The X1D/GFX decision is particularly subjective as you already noted.
-Todd
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Mate, I am guessing that you are not retiring at 20? I am also basically retired.
You say that had the GFX50S and you are obviously not in love with it. Looking through other posts here that seems to be common. I am sure the Fuji is a great camera too, but look at the link posted in the previous comment and just look at the picture at the top. Which would you prefer to carry around and use?
To me, I have had the X1D for about 6 months now and love it. It is lighter, more comfortable and easier to use than my Canon. I may sell my 5DS because I hardly use it now, but will probably keep a Canon of some sort for sport and other things from a distance. The X1D sort of encourages creativity which you now have time to do.
The colour on the X1D through Phocus is brilliant and you can calibrate the camera for reproduction work.
I started using my old H series lenses but since getting an XCD 90 I have decided to sell all of my H series lenses and get XCD lenses as soon as I can raise the money for them. The whole thing is so compact and being able to overpower the sun at 1/2000 sync speed using a small flash is great. Compare that to the appalling 1/125S that you can get with a Fuji. It has GPS so it is good for travel
Hasselblads last forever anyway and many are still using an H1 that is 14 years old or even V series that may be 50 years old. The X1D has no moving parts. If you look after it then it should last forever (as far as you are concerned). I would not let price make your decision. Life is too short. Enjoy it.
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Hi Bob, thak you and others that have posted replies. Yes Subjective. I will wait to see if the prices come down. I will check out the link that was sent. Thank you
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Joe Colson owns and uses both systems and...
And he decided to keep both systems. Quite a luxury but it makes sense to me having used both.
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I know we only live ONCE BUT I can afford 1 System. Thank you
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Perhaps wait a little longer and take a look on what’s actually coming https://photorumors.com/2019/02/01/new-hasselblad-x1d-mark-ii-camera-registered-in-asia/ (https://photorumors.com/2019/02/01/new-hasselblad-x1d-mark-ii-camera-registered-in-asia/)
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Perhaps wait a little longer and take a look on what’s actually coming https://photorumors.com/2019/02/01/new-hasselblad-x1d-mark-ii-camera-registered-in-asia/ (https://photorumors.com/2019/02/01/new-hasselblad-x1d-mark-ii-camera-registered-in-asia/)
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That really looks like a 100MP camera from Hasselblad is coming too in the foreseeable future. That would be great news for all of us. While I prefer the Fuji and have decided that this is the system for me - it would be great if Hasselblad stays strong in that market. Competition is always good.
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So true. Competition is the best that can happen. Wouldn’t mind another player like Pentax going forward as well.
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And he decided to keep both systems. Quite a luxury but it makes sense to me having used both.
To me that requires more dollars than sense.
Subjective yes, but having two different medium format systems to me is like having two backsides.
I would sooner have two cameras the same.
Anything my medium format can't do then the 35mm will do.
if you don't shoot sport or feathered birds then that is not much. Mainly I would choose the 35mm if there is a damage risk.
I doubt that I will ever need more than 50MP for most product or portrait work and probably not for landscape either.
If I ever did I would just hire one and add it to the bill.
I think that the market for medium format cameras is very small and we are lucky to have a few players.
The market for 100MP and above cameras is going to be a very small subset of that.
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I think that the market for medium format cameras is very small and we are lucky to have a few players.
The market for 100MP and above cameras is going to be a very small subset of that.
Give it two years and the fairly old Sony chip at the heart of the current models will be retired, and all MF cameras will be at least 100MP.
The interesting question is when will LF start to make a comeback? I think when I'm in my 70's they might market an affordable 6x9 back that would allow me to use the wonderful folding bellows plate camera I used as a kid, and when I'm in my late 80s the 4x5 Plaubel Makina might make a comeback :)
Film was a wonderful tech because all the heavy lifting was done at the film manufacturer and in the lab and the cameras could be so simple. Any format from Minox to 8x10 was straightforward to create. This digital stuff means the whole camera needs to be revised away for evolution to occur. It's absurd. And actually the landscape and portrait photographers i.e. those most active on this forum did pretty well out of film.
Edmund
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Give it two years and the fairly old Sony chip at the heart of the current models will be retired, and all MF cameras will be at least 100MP.
And will the 100MP price level drop to the current 50MP price level? I will lament the passing of 50 MP if what we are left with is $10K for MFD.
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I don't see why the price wouldn't come down.
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Not by much. My guess is the first year 100Mp will be around 10k.
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Fuji's strategy seems to be to make MF cameras comparable in price to the top FF cameras, while beating the image quality specs. Once FF gets to 60MP, I suspect the 100MP MF will drop in price drastically to be more comparable to FF, and the 50MP will get much cheaper than it is today.
Resolution is not everything, but 50MP medium format loses its allure for a lot of people when they will be able to get 60MP in full frame for cheaper.
I suspect that until FF releases 60MP cameras, the fuji 100MP offerings will be very expensive.
I am also interested in what Pentax is doing.
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Give it two years and the fairly old Sony chip at the heart of the current models will be retired, and all MF cameras will be at least 100MP.
Even if all new cameras are 100MP (unlikely), I doubt that many MF users will be 100MP.
I own both a 50MP 35mm camera and a 50MP MF. If the the 50MP MF was out first I never would have bought the 50MP 35mm. There is no comparison.
There have been 50MP 35mm DSLR now for a long time. Today not all 35mm are 50MP, in fact very few.
I have a 50MP DSLR and the next one will probably be 30MP or less. Large MP on relatively small sensors is not necessary and is sometimes a disadvantage. The people who buy on widget numbers with lots of money will buy but most won't see the value. In comparison to MF cameras, 35mm are disposable.
I don't think that there will be many people who will discard a 50MP MF camera because they need 100MP. My last H4D was about 8 years old and still working fine. The X1D was an opportunity to go new with very little cash out.
I understand that the total camera market is about 1,000,000 units per month. Of those, only 13% are not Canon. Nikon or Sony. So that leaves 130,000 for all the rest. I would be very surprised if 5% of those were Medium format, so maybe 8000 per month total. That is a very tiny market to compete in.
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I think 8000 a month is very, very optimistic.
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I would guess way to high. I would have guess more likely 3000 per month max.
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I think 8000 a month is very, very optimistic.
I agree. I just didn't want upset the dealers too much!
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All you have to do is look at the Sony sensor roadmap to see what is going to happen in cropMF the BSI stacked 100mp production is slowly ramping up(first to P1 then to Fuji then to ?); when that is in production the current 5 year old 50mp sensor will be replaced by a current design BSI stacked 50mp sensor. Currently Fuji claims to be committed at least in the 50R perhaps the 50S to the 50MP MF.
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Phase One, did not use the cropped 100MP sensor, they went for the non BSI 100MP full size 645 chip (I realize that is a relative term). The IQ4 100MP uses the Trichormatic chip that came out in late 2017, for a variant of the 3100.
P1 IQ250/150/350 all use the same chip 50MP chip, P1 IQ3100 and 3100 Trichromatic use the 100MP non BSI 645 CMOS, Trichromatic uses a unique version of the same chip in the 3100. P1 IQ4 100 uses the same Trichomatic chip 100MP non BSI, IQ4 150 has the only BSI chip I know in a MF back or camera sold and available on the market.
Fuji should be the first company to bring a cropped BSI 100MP chip to market in their follow on to the 50S/R camera.
Paul C
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All you have to do is look at the Sony sensor roadmap to see what is going to happen in cropMF the BSI stacked 100mp production is slowly ramping up(first to P1 then to Fuji then to ?); when that is in production the current 5 year old 50mp sensor will be replaced by a current design BSI stacked 50mp sensor. Currently Fuji claims to be committed at least in the 50R perhaps the 50S to the 50MP MF.
I believe there will be no new crop 50 because it costs almost the same as the 100 to make (same surface area, thus yield) but cameras with it need to be sold much cheaper.
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Phase One, did not use the cropped 100MP sensor, they went for the non BSI 100MP full size 645 chip
Phase One is using Sony's new 100MP 44x33mm (can we just use actual format sizes, like we did withe medium- and large-format format film?!) but only in the iXM-100 camera for aerial photography: https://industrial.phaseone.com/iXM_Camera_Series.aspx
Maybe Phase One got it first because initial low production volumes were adequate for that niche product, or because a higher dead-pixel count in early production is more tolerable in that "technical" usage than in high-end artistic photography.
The talk of low sales volume hampering MF sensor development is exaggerated I think—firstly because Sony can fairly easily scale up and down sensor sizes using the same core technology for photosites and such; secondly because there is a potentially large hidden market of industrial and technical uses for these sensors, for which we do not know much about sales volume. In fact, the 3.76 micron photosite design in these new 44x33mm and 54x40mm sensors is not yet in 36x24mm format sensors!
P. S. I agree that the 50MP 44x33 sensor will go away once existing stocks are used—for one thing Sony no longer lists it at its product web-site.
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I believe there will be no new crop 50 because it costs almost the same as the 100 to make (same surface area, thus yield) but cameras with it need to be sold much cheaper.
Me too!
Erik
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Hi,
A few years ago the MFD market was estimated to be around 10000 units/year.
Looking a at Lens Rentals statistics may give some insight, at their site it seems Hasselblad rental share is 0.22%.
The figure is probably not very relevant, but it seems Lens Rental's is mostly working with professionals
Best regards
Erik
I agree. I just didn't want upset the dealers too much!
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Phase One is using Sony's new 100MP 44x33mm (can be we just use actual format sizes, like we did withe medium- and large-format format film?!) but only in the iXM-100 camera for aerial photography: https://industrial.phaseone.com/iXM_Camera_Series.aspx
Maybe Phase One got it first because initial low production volumes were adequate for that niche product, or because a higher dead-pixel count in early production is more tolerable in that "technical" usage than in high-end artistic photography.
The talk of low sales volume hampering MF sensor development is exaggerated I think—firstly because Sony can fairly easily scale up and down sensor sizes using the same core technology for photosites and such; secondly because there is a potentially large hidden market of industrial and technical uses for these sensors, for which we do not know much about sales volume. In fact, the 3.76 micron photosite design in these new 44x33mm and 54x40mm sensors is not yet in 36x24mm format sensors!
You got me, I forgot about the industrial cameras!! good point.
Paul C
P. S. I agree that the 50MP 44x33 sensor will go away once existing stocks are used—for one thing Sony no longer lists it at its product web-site.
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Hi,
A few years ago the MFD market was estimated to be around 10000 units/year.
Looking a at Lens Rentals statistics may give some insight, at their site it seems Hasselblad rental share is 0.22%.
The figure is probably not very relevant, but it seems Lens Rental's is mostly working with professionals
Best regards
Erik
I think the figures presented are probably close to the general market share for the brands. A lot of things influence rentals though. People often rent a lens to try it out. Once it has been out for a while if you need then you buy it. Consumer cameras have new lenses all the time, so shiny new things to try out.
Personally I was ecstatic to get a 50MP medium format camera that I can fit in my pocket. It does everything I need alongside my Canon. The downside is 75MB files. Do I want and would I pay for a 100MP with 150MB files. No, unless it was the same price.
The old, old, story about "build it and they will come" is a myth to me. There are those that will buy a new phone every year because it is new and shiny. There are not many of those in the medium format market.
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The old, old, story about "build it and they will come" is a myth to me. There are those that will buy a new phone every year because it is new and shiny. There are not many of those in the medium format market.
Actually, I think a lot of "hedge fund" style guys and Getty-type museums will buy the top of the line megapixel products whatever the pricing. The same is probably true of some aerial or architecture photographers.
Edmund
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I would think that high-MP reproduction camera set-ups would be pretty universal in museums and archives. High-MP set-ups would likely use mosaic technique.
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I would think that high-MP reproduction camera set-ups would be pretty universal in museums and archives. High-MP set-ups would likely use mosaic technique.
I think they will try for single click as much as possible, especially for non-flat objects :)
Edmund