Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Digital Image Processing => Topic started by: Frans Waterlander on October 02, 2018, 07:16:31 pm
-
This is a major bug in my opinion, but Adobe Tech Support says the program was designed to work this way. It may be in other versions of Elements as well; I don't know.
Here's the issue: you open a RAW image and start adjusting it; you unintentionally (or intentionally) click the DONE button. Oops; your original RAW file gets overwritten with the modified version and your original is gone forever. Nice!
Shouldn't one of the top priorities be to safeguard the original RAW file? Shouldn't you, as a bare minimum, first get a warning like "are you sure you want to do this", although that's not enough safeguarding in my book.
When I asked to report this as a bug, I got redirected to a feature/bug form that misdirected me to the Adobe Conversations (forum).
What say you?
-
It's not a bug. It's how it's supposed to work; proprietary raws are read only, they have not been 'edited' or for that matter, anything but 'read'.
-
It's not a bug. It's how it's supposed to work; proprietary raws are read only, they have not been 'edited' or for that matter, anything but 'read'.
Then just explain to this dummy how he can recover his original, because it looks like his original has been overwritten.
-
There is nothing to recover. The proprietary raw is READ ONLY.
-
Look for sidecar 'xmp' files. That's where the recipe is stored. Delete it. Never heard of a program that alters RAW files. Most every photographer trying to use it would raise hell if that happened and there would be tracks all over the net.
-
Look for sidecar 'xmp' files. That's where the recipe is stored. Delete it. Never heard of a program that alters RAW files. Most every photographer trying to use it would raise hell if that happened and there would be tracks all over the net.
He's been told this on the other site. He refuses to believe he's using sidecar files. Again, he's not interested in the facts or answers, he's interested in hearing what he wants to hear. Proof:
https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/major-bug-in-elements-2018.5511241/#post-5700036 (https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/major-bug-in-elements-2018.5511241/#post-5700036)
1. I haven't used sidecars.
2. I use the database (which is not the catalog); there is no reset button in my version of ACR, 10.2. The issue is not undoing edits in ACR; you can easily do that (e.g. with the before/after button). The issue is that as soon as you click on the Done button, the original file seems to be overwritten and now has the changes made in ACR and ACR is automatically closed.
He's been told there is no ACR database. He's been told about sidecar files. The major bug is in his understanding after being told the way this really works. :'(
-
He's been told this on the other site. He refuses to believe he's using sidecar files. Again, he's not interested in the facts or answers, he's interested in hearing what he wants to hear. Proof:
https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/major-bug-in-elements-2018.5511241/#post-5700036 (https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/major-bug-in-elements-2018.5511241/#post-5700036)
1. I haven't used sidecars.
2. I use the database (which is not the catalog); there is no reset button in my version of ACR, 10.2. The issue is not undoing edits in ACR; you can easily do that (e.g. with the before/after button). The issue is that as soon as you click on the Done button, the original file seems to be overwritten and now has the changes made in ACR and ACR is automatically closed.
He's been told there is no ACR database. He's been told about sidecar files. The major bug is in his understanding after being told the way this really works. :'(
OK, then be so kind to tell this dummy where he can find those sidecar files or is that too much to ask for?
-
OK, then be so kind to tell this dummy where he can find those sidecar files or is that too much to ask for?
See reply 5.
You actually don’t know how to look for files on your own computer?
-
See reply 5.
You actually don’t know how to look for files on your own computer?
Apparently not, or so it seems. Care to enlighten me?
-
Don't feel bad, not many people know this..
First, open your CD drawer. Then take one of those small LED flashlights and peer inside. You'll find the sidecars stacked neatly in the back.
-
Adobe changed the sidecar XMP files to instead store the editing data in DNG files around 2013 or so. But it works similarly.
Adobe doesn't alter RAW files *but* if using recent versions of Elements, it does save changes made in camera raw in a DNG file. When you open the RAW file it finds the associated DNG file and applies the alterations recorded in the DNG file.
Just delete any associated DNG file and re-open the RAW file.
https://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop-elements/using/processing-camera-raw-image-files.html
-
This might help;
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=where+does+Photoshop+elements+2018+store+raw+edits+%3F
-
Adobe changed the sidecar XMP files to instead store the editing data in DNG files around 2013 or so. But it works similarly.
Adobe doesn't alter RAW files *but* if using recent versions of Elements, it does save changes made in camera raw in a DNG file. When you open the RAW file it finds the associated DNG file and applies the alterations recorded in the DNG file.
Just delete any associated DNG file and re-open the RAW file.
https://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop-elements/using/processing-camera-raw-image-files.html
Thats interesting I have not used elements for many years and therefore no idea of the change to editing a DNG container. The only raw editing applications that I am aware of that write directly to raw would be those from the manufacturer. For instance, Nikon used to write data directly into NEF's with their Capture NX2. The changes could be reversed and only the Nikon software would honour the changes, other editors ignored the Nikon data and applied their own
Frans, the same principle of deleting xmp files applies if you ever change to PS CC.
As an experiment, you may want to prove to yourself that sidecar or DNG's written and your original raw exists without being touched.
Create a new folder on desktop and copy say three raw files. Open two files in your raw editor of choice and make some gross edits on them. Click done then close PS. Now look at the folder you should see additional files as in the attached. In this case xmp (a simple file that tells PS what changes to apply to sliders etc.). Want your original back and not prepared to cancel zero settings in PS - just delete the sidecar file.
Hope all this clears up the misunderstanding that raw editors overwrite original data.
EDIT: Also note that no matter how gross your edit the thumbnail will not change to reflect those changes
-
Editing a DNG which isn’t a proprietary raw and not read only is exactly like TIFF or PSD, or JPEG; XMP is written into the document. When Frans deal with proprietary raws, (NEF) he’ll be using sidecar files Despite his adamant and incorrect writings that he isn’t using sidecar files. He is. Again the bug is simply his understanding about how this all works and refusal to accept it.
-
Thats interesting I have not used elements for many years and therefore no idea of the change to editing a DNG container. The only raw editing applications that I am aware of that write directly to raw would be those from the manufacturer. For instance, Nikon used to write data directly into NEF's with their Capture NX2. The changes could be reversed and only the Nikon software would honour the changes, other editors ignored the Nikon data and applied their own
Frans, the same principle of deleting xmp files applies if you ever change to PS CC.
As an experiment, you may want to prove to yourself that sidecar or DNG's written and your original raw exists without being touched.
Create a new folder on desktop and copy say three raw files. Open two files in your raw editor of choice and make some gross edits on them. Click done then close PS. Now look at the folder you should see additional files as in the attached. In this case xmp (a simple file that tells PS what changes to apply to sliders etc.). Want your original back and not prepared to cancel zero settings in PS - just delete the sidecar file.
Hope all this clears up the misunderstanding that raw editors overwrite original data.
EDIT: Also note that no matter how gross your edit the thumbnail will not change to reflect those changes
I bet the OP is not seeing the sidecars because the hidden file view is not being activated. Go to View> show hidden files - Check.
-
I bet the OP is not seeing the sidecars because the hidden file view is not being activated. Go to View> show hidden files - Check.
Also, you can use the DOS prompt (Win) or Terminal (Mac) to list the contents of the directory that contains the raw and XMP files. This will show all of the files, regardless of your GUI's file display settings.
kirk
-
The OP needs to know that this isn't a bug, it's by design.
The OP really needs to apparently know how to reset something he's done in ACR which is easy and suggests RTFM.
Proprietary raws are read only and what he see's is the preview (or a rendered JPEG/TIFF etc) and to reset anything in ACR is super easy to do.
https://www.lynda.com/course-tutorials/Resetting-files-ACR/587669/731195-4.html
-
So, let me recap the situation for Elements 2018 with ACR 10.2. In Camera RAW Preferences you choose either "Save image settings in Sidecar ".xmp" files" or "Save image settings in Camera Raw database".
With sidecars enabled a sidecars is created for Nikon NEF RAW files, whether the file is Read-only or not. With the database enabled no sidecar is created.
With sidecars enabled a sidecar is created for DNG RAW files, but only if the file is Read-only. If the DNG file is not Read-only, no sidecar is created and I suspect the metadata is written into the DNG file, although it could possibly be written into the database; I can't figure out which.
In ACR 10.2 I can choose the Camera RAW Defaults setting which, as far as I can tell, shows me the unedited RAW file.
There are some drawbacks to using the database: Adobe Tech Support can't tell me where that database is located on my computer so I can't possibly back it up; someone there even told me it doesn't exist. The advantage is that you don't double your files in a given folder. I'm switching from using the database option since around 2000 to using the sidecar option from now on.
-
I can't figure out which.
You really haven't got the hang of searching for information on the internet yet, have you ?
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=where+does+Photoshop+elements+2018+store+raw+database
-
No, DNGs are not read only! Not if.
-
No, DNGs are not read only!
They are if you set them to Read-only.
-
They are if you set them to Read-only.
You are confused enough as it is.
-
You are confused enough as it is.
Not as much as some people who keep asserting that you must have sidecar files, eh.
-
Not as much as some people who keep asserting that you must have sidecar files, eh.
Frans,
Did you read the link from the Adobe Elements site I posted? Here it is again:
https://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop-elements/using/processing-camera-raw-image-files.html
To save you or other reading this the trouble here's the relevant portion:
Photoshop Elements does not save your changes to the original raw file (non-destructive editing). After processing the raw image file ***using the features of the Camera Raw dialog box, You can choose to open a processed raw file in Photoshop Elements. You can then edit the file and save it in a Photoshop Elements supported format. The original raw file remains unaltered.
*** processing the RAW file creates a DNG file which is a container that includes most (or all if you want) of the RAW file as well as the changes made. In Photoshop these are in a separate XMP file. In Elements this is packed into the DNG file. If you delete the DNG file and open the RAW file again you should see the original, unmolested image.
and
The Digital Negative (DNG) format is Adobe’s proposed standard format for camera raw files. DNG files are useful for archiving camera raw images because they contain the raw camera sensor data and data specifying how the image should look. Camera raw image settings can be stored in DNG files instead of in sidecar XMP files or the camera raw database.
Basically, at one time XMP files were separate but Elements sticks the XMP file in the DNG file along with raw data from the camera's RAW file. The RAW file is not altered.
The problem here is that most photographers here do not use Elements and Photoshop which saves separate XMP files by default instead of incorporating them the Adobe DNG container.
-
Doug, yes I read it and I now understand the RAW file is not overwritten, thank goodness. "processing the RAW file creates a DNG file" is not correct; you can create a DNG file, but you can also use other formats like PSD, TIFF, jpeg, etc. And furthermore, the metadata is not necessarily packed in the DNG file, only if you choose the sidecar setting AND the DNG file is not Read-only. And, you can choose the sidecar route and then the metadata is saved in the xmp file, unless you work with a DNG file that is not Read-only.
I think Adobe could do a way better job of creating a user manual for Elements; in order to learn what all the different settings and buttons do in ACR for instance, you have to really hunt for this information in different sections of the manual and often you need to click on links to the Photoshop proper manual which often doesn't apply word-for-word to Elements.
-
We may conclude from all this that the supposed "bug" in Elements which led to this thread was not in fact a bug. The accusation was made because the originator of this thread did not understand what Elements was doing, or what he was doing with Elements. As is apparent from his last post, he now does understand, having been helped by the thread and links posted, and now believes Adobe's documentation to have been at fault.
The thread is closed.
Jeremy