Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Tibor O on September 27, 2018, 02:12:10 pm
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Hi there,
I am exclusively into natural looking studio portraits made with studio flashes like the one attached. Currently I am using the Mamiya Leaf Aptus 22 combo and will be keeping it for its big pixel glory. I am shooting with the Phase One 80 mm 2.8 AF D (non LS) and Mamiya 150 mm 2.8 AF D IF (non LS) at f/2.8 or f/4, 1/125 s and ISO 50 all the time (although I also have the 45 mm). I tether and process using Capture One Pro 11 only. I have no need for the LS lenses. I almost never crop in post.
I will add printing up to A2 in size to my workflow in the coming few months. Portraits will always be printed with a white border. Please see attached formats. I will be using Canon 17” printer and want to print at 600 ppi whenever possible.
When printing to A2 size paper the picture dimensions will be 44,8 x 33,6 cm with a 4,2 cm wide border at both sides, 5,6 cm on top and 9 cm on the bottom. I have calculated that at 600 ppi a 80 mpix digital back would be sufficient for that picture.
So, in the coming few months I plan to add another digital back to my equipment for the resolution purposes and also to solve my moire problems when dealing with “problematic” clothing. As I said, I will be keeping the Leaf Aptus 22 oldie goldie thus wishing for the new back to be compatible with most if not all of my gear.
I am looking at used gear only and have my eyes set on an IQ 280 for approx. 14.000 €.
Would you say this is the right choice for me or should I be looking at something different? Would I be better off with an IQ 180 or should I look at the Fujifilm GFX 50 offerings? With the Fuji is 50 vs. 80 mpix and also crop vs. full frame but I get a new set for the price of a used Phase One.
Thank you for your honest opinion.
Tibor
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I‘m not only saying that because I’m currently selling my IQ180. But I personally have no reason why I would spend 14k on the 280 if I can get a 180 for 7-8k.
I can tell you I love my IQ180 and the file quality is amazing. In control situations certainly better then the Fuji GFX which I also own.
The Fuji has other benefits like great af and even eye af.
It depends a lot on how you work. The GFX viewfinder is nice, but nothing compared to the real OVF.
Just as a last note, I’m selling the Iq180 because I have an IQ3 100 and 150 on order.
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I‘m not only saying that because I’m currently selling my IQ180. But I personally have no reason why I would spend 14k on the 280 if I can get a 180 for 7-8k.
Where I am looking the IQ 180 is 11.000 € :( Is built-in wireless the only difference between the 180 and 280?
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As far as I know it’s only WiFi, which didn’t work great till the IQ3s. Perhaps someone can say something about that who owned a IQ2 Back.
Other difference is long exposure, but honestly I have never heard great things about any CCD back in that regard. (After the p45+)
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I was a former IQ180 user (now IQ3 100). I think your money would be better spent on the IQ180 and get the Phase XF camera body. Much better usability and AF performance with this combination. If you are in Christopher's area, I'd look at his IQ180 as you would be dealing with a known user. In studio, the IQ180 and XF is a great combination. I have the Fuji GFX 50s and do not like to use it in studio, and find it cumbersome with studio lighting. I find it annoying to have to toggle between the screen setting preview to use in studio and then outdoors when I shoot landscapes without strobes.
Ken
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The IQx80 image quality is jaw dropping. I wouldn't hesitate in recommending it if the lower ISO will suit your style and it looks like it would.
If you are aware of all the CCD limitations and it will work for you, then go for it.
The only real argument in the con is that if you do find yourself wanting to change your style to more low light or something then you may be somewhat boxed in. It may pay to try out the IQx50 too for that reason.
No rush for the XF yet but you have the option to do that when you want.
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I think the IQ280 adds Sensor + mode in addition to wifi. The longest exposure time is also 2 mins, and the IQx80 didn’t benefit from long exposure until the IQ380.
Personally, I don’t think the IQ280 offers enough over the IQ180 to justify the price difference, considering you’d see identical image quality. As others have said, IQ180s are selling in the 7-8k range right now, so I’d have a hard time justifying 14k for the 280, but YMMV.
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Correcting some information posted above.
All Phase One CCD based IQ digital backs offer Sensor Plus. IQ180, IQ280, IQ380 all produce 20mp files at about 2 stops more sensitivity than the full rez files @ 80mp. Only the IQ380 added improved longer exposure, the IQ180 and IQ280 are identical to each other in this regard (good results up to 90 - 120 seconds, depending on ambient temps of course).
The only difference between IQ180 and IQ280 was the built-in wifi, a claimed additional amount of dynamic range (in real world, perhaps 1/3 - 1/2 more stop, but not so easy to tell), and depending on when the IQ280 was purchased, 5 year vs 1 year warranty.
Steve Hendrix/CI
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Thanks for the clarification Steve
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I think your money would be better spent on the IQ180 and get the Phase XF camera body. Much better usability and AF performance with this combination.
Thank you for the info. Will look at this option also.
Is the XF body compatible with my lenses (the FP Phase One AF D 80 mm 2.8, Mamiya Sekor AF D 150 mm IF 2.8, Mamiya Sekor AF D 45 mm 2.8 )?
The IQx80 image quality is jaw dropping. I wouldn't hesitate in recommending it if the lower ISO will suit your style and it looks like it would.
If you are aware of all the CCD limitations and it will work for you, then go for it.
Thank you for your opinion.
ISO up to 100 is sufficient for me. And I shoot only at 1/125s. Are there any other limitations I should be aware of?
It may pay to try out the IQx50 too for that reason.
Sorry, but I want full frame so a 1.3 crop factor with IQx50 is a no go for me.
The only difference between IQ180 and IQ280 was the built-in wifi, a claimed additional amount of dynamic range (in real world, perhaps 1/3 - 1/2 more stop, but not so easy to tell), and depending on when the IQ280 was purchased, 5 year vs 1 year warranty.
Thank you for this great info. It looks like it will save me some money :)
Any tips on what I should be aware of when buying an used IQ180? What to test and check out? And, does the picture count number matter / influence the price?
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Sensor glass condition, outer condition, has there been a recalibration. (Sometimes These back drift a little over time and a centerfold is creeping into the picture)
I personally wouldn’t care about shutter count. I hav seen backs with 6000 and ones with 200000.
There is no reason they can’t to a few millions.
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I don't wanna say this too loudly as I've never done studio, but at the moment a used Hassy H4D40 or H4D50 can be had on ebay for $3-4K or so, not only the Fujis but also the modern X1D is now well under $10K new, and you might find that the lenses and color suit you even if you don't have Capture One. The Fujis can use C1.
The Fuji is so cheap, that I think a pro can afford to buy it and resell it if it doesn't work out.
The big advantage of the latest Fuji and the Hassy X1D is price, but also that they can be used with fairly low light, eg. incandescent continuous, which might also allow you to change your workflow if you desire. 1600 ISO is a safe working ISO with the new CMOS backs. Phase have a 50MP Cmos model too which you might consider getting used.
You absolutely need to do a sample image under your own light of anything you buy because CMOS and CCD may have different skin "looks", but also various backs may be rendering skin tone color very differently even if they are in a similar product range on paper. Small internal differences like the IR filter can translate into a huge difference in skin complexion, especially on caucasian skin.
Edmund
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Any tips on what I should be aware of when buying an used IQ180? What to test and check out? And, does the picture count number matter / influence the price?
As was mentioned above, the shot count is not critically important. However, in fairness, one would have to say that the fewer the shots, the better chance the internals have not been impacted and damage of some sort has been initiated. Of course, it only takes 1. You could shoot 225,000 shots and on the 225,001 shot, you bonk into a wall and it jars the internal circuit board. Or someone could do that on shot # 3277. But eventually someone may do it, and with more shots, there has been more opportunity. Lower shot count units do fetch a higher price due to the market value and perception of benefit of the lower shot count.
The most common repairs are a re-calibration of the sensor ($600 service check) or a circuit board replacement (around $2,400 on average). But in terms of performance, no real issue with shot counts at all. That same quality - assuming a healthy unit - will be there regardless of the shot count.
We thoroughly test and inspect each digital back that we offer as Certified Pre-Owned, and provide the same 1 year warranty that a brand new unit comes with. What we see most often if there is an issue when someone trades in a unit is that:
- there is a 1 pixel wide line (or series of lines) going through the image. (the method we test with we will see it). This is is usually a corrupt calibration.
- the IR Filter has slight little nicks, that may elude detection in most images (the method we test with we will see it).
- some other issue, won't tether reliably, cf card issue, interface not cooperating, etc. These issues usually lead to board replacement.
Steve Hendrix/CI
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The only difference between IQ180 and IQ280 was the built-in wifi, a claimed additional amount of dynamic range (in real world, perhaps 1/3 - 1/2 more stop, but not so easy to tell), and depending on when the IQ280 was purchased, 5 year vs 1 year warranty
IQ2 vs IQ1 differences (beyond warranty, price, and wifi) included a few features the IQ2 had that the IQ1 did not:
- Exposure Calculator (mostly useful for long-exposure photography)
- Clipping Warning (different and far more useful than Exposure Warning)
- Exposure Heatmap (very useful for judging exposure in low-key and high-key scenes)
- Option to use Auto ISO when combined with XF (the implementation of this is really smartly done, so valuable to more people than you'd think)
- Ability to set ISO from the XF using the third wheel
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IQ2 vs IQ1 differences (beyond warranty, price, and wifi) included a few features the IQ2 had that the IQ1 did not:
- Exposure Calculator (mostly useful for long-exposure photography)
- Clipping Warning (different and far more useful than Exposure Warning)
- Exposure Heatmap (very useful for judging exposure in low-key and high-key scenes)
- Option to use Auto ISO when combined with XF (the implementation of this is really smartly done, so valuable to more people than you'd think)
- Ability to set ISO from the XF using the third wheel
Yes, thanks Doug, forgot to mention the interface tool updates. Although for Tibor's use, these won't matter.
Steve Hendrix/CI
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You should not have a problem using your current set of lenses with the Phase XF. The difference is HUGE though in terms of usability. Autofocus performance alone is worth the price of upgrading to this camera body imho. If you are using Profoto lights, Profoto integration is another nice feature set. The Phase XF will simply make taking photographs easier. There are so many nice features in the XF. And you will have the ability to use the Schneider LS lenses, which does increase flexibility quite a bit. I used the IQ180 for quite some time---it is a great MFDB. But when paired with the Phase XF, it really becomes a joy to use.
A certified pre-owned option may give you some peace of mind.
Ken
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You should not have a problem using your current set of lenses with the Phase XF. The difference is HUGE though in terms of usability. Autofocus performance alone is worth the price of upgrading to this camera body imho. If you are using Profoto lights, Profoto integration is another nice feature set. The Phase XF will simply make taking photographs easier. There are so many nice features in the XF. And you will have the ability to use the Schneider LS lenses, which does increase flexibility quite a bit. I used the IQ180 for quite some time---it is a great MFDB. But when paired with the Phase XF, it really becomes a joy to use.
A certified pre-owned option may give you some peace of mind.
Ken
Doug and Steve are incredibly helpful members of this forum, and in all the time I have been a member here, I have never heard a bad word about either of them.
If you really want to go with Phase, I think you would be smart to go with one of them, rather than buy a used product privately - unless whatever you get still has a warranty, of course. Dealer relationships are very important when it comes to Phase products.
Of course, Doug is welcome to explain to me the error of my opinions :)
Edmund
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I will add printing up to A2 in size to my workflow in the coming few months. Portraits will always be printed with a white border. Please see attached formats. I will be using Canon 17” printer and want to print at 600 ppi whenever possible.
Just to confuse you even more....
I don't do portraits very often, but I have a 50 mpix back (the other brand - not important) and I routinely print at A2, sometimes larger. My experience is that 300 dpi is impossible to tell apart from 600 dpi and that my 50 mpix back sings at A2 prints. So I would suggest a 50 mpix back, which you can probably get for a very good price used.
Caveat emptor: on an old back, you will probably need firewire for tethered shooting.
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Just to confuse you even more....
I don't do portraits very often, but I have a 50 mpix back (the other brand - not important) and I routinely print at A2, sometimes larger. My experience is that 300 dpi is impossible to tell apart from 600 dpi and that my 50 mpix back sings at A2 prints. So I would suggest a 50 mpix back, which you can probably get for a very good price used.
Caveat emptor: on an old back, you will probably need firewire for tethered shooting.
Actually as an example, IQ150 and IQ180 models are selling in a similar territory. So for studio use, if it was me, I'd rather have the IQ180. And both these models, even though they are ancient IQ1 series, do have firewire 800 and USB 3 interface ports.
Steve Hendrix/CI
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Thank you folks for all this useful information. Also looking at making a foray into Digital MF and considering a used P1 system. Finding it confusing initially but this thread definitely clarified the offering they make.
I'm a landscape photographer and looking to create large prints, up to 60", black and whites. I've hit a wall on scale with my Fuji X-T2, much loved but concerned now with resolution and tonal range and subtlety especially on dark prints.
The GFX was my obvious next step but I'm looking at the Phase offerings more closely now. I cannot scale the financial heights of the more recent cameras but curious to hear what other users have found with older backs.
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Tibor for the type of work you do and for your future needs, I think moving up to an IQ180 or a Credo 80 is a very sensible decision. The Credo might be more interesting because you can use the same Leaf profiles you use for your Aptus and get very similar looks. It may also be somewhat cheaper as a pre-owned back.
BR
Yair
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As a former IQ180 owner I can tell you it’s an amazing back and produce stunning images. It certainly is a back only shot at ISO 35/50/100 sometimes 200, but image quality isn’t as good as at the lower ISO’s.
I do love my GFX and Iq3100 CMOS back, but that doesn’t mean the Iq180 wasn’t used in the last three years.
It depends a lot on you shooting style.
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Thank you all for your input, much appreciate it.
Here are some of my final thoughts and questions on the topic.
I don't wanna say this too loudly as I've never done studio, but at the moment a used Hassy H4D40 or H4D50 can be had on ebay for $3-4K or so.
Hassy is out of the question, I’m afraid, because I want to stay with Capture One. I love Capture One! I have invested in the Logic Keyboard + Tangent Element Tk + Tangent Element Kb and I use the Color Balance and Color Editor all the time. Could not live without it.
You might find that the lenses and color suit you even if you don't have Capture One. The Fujis can use C1.
The Fuji is so cheap, that I think a pro can afford to buy it and resell it if it doesn't work out.
You absolutely need to do a sample image under your own light of anything you buy because CMOS and CCD may have different skin "looks", but also various backs may be rendering skin tone color very differently even if they are in a similar product range on paper. Small internal differences like the IR filter can translate into a huge difference in skin complexion, especially on caucasian skin.
True. After I got my hands on some GFX 50S raw files and IQ 280 raw files that are available on the net my initial preference is toward the CCD and the IQ. The IQ files were, ironically, shot with a Hassy body and lens.
I needed to tweak both files in Capture One, but the GFX needed much more work in the Color Balance tool than the IQ one. I think this is due to lack of profiles for the GFX that I think will be added to Capture One later in the future (I think David Grover stated that on one of the LuLa’s forums).
I played with all the files and found out that the IQ 280 have the most latitude and that you can “squeeze the most fruity juice” from them.
It must be I’m a CCD guy :)
Please see the attached print screens for illustration. On the left is the Fuji GFX 50S studio portrait with basic tweaking, on the right is the IQ 280 one made with a Hassy. The second attachment is a 100% (Fuji) vs. 50% (IQ) zoom comparison.
IQ2 vs IQ1 differences (beyond warranty, price, and wifi) included a few features the IQ2 had that the IQ1 did not:
…
- Clipping Warning (different and far more useful than Exposure Warning)
- Exposure Heatmap (very useful for judging exposure in low-key and high-key scenes)
…
Thank you. Clipping Warning and Exposure Heatmap might be useful for me. Is this available only with a XF body or also with a DF+? I did not find any Phase One documentation on this topic searching the web.
You should not have a problem using your current set of lenses with the Phase XF. The difference is HUGE though in terms of usability. Autofocus performance alone is worth the price of upgrading to this camera body imho. If you are using Profoto lights, Profoto integration is another nice feature set. The Phase XF will simply make taking photographs easier. There are so many nice features in the XF.
I do use Profoto lights so this is another plus for getting also the XF. I read there are two AF modules for the XF. Is the difference between the two significant?
So I would suggest a 50 mpix back, which you can probably get for a very good price used.
With the 50 is the crop factor problem. I would settle for a crop factor only with a new camera, like the GFX. If buying used or certified pre-owned I would much rather buy the full frame back.
Tibor for the type of work you do and for your future needs, I think moving up to an IQ180 or a Credo 80 is a very sensible decision. The Credo might be more interesting because you can use the same Leaf profiles you use for your Aptus and get very similar looks.
Initially I was looking also at the Credo 80 for the same reason as you are recommending it, the Leaf portrait profiles. God, I love the Aptus 22 portrait profiles. However, the IQ has something that it would be very very difficult for me to give up with the new purchase. The Focus mask tool on the back, same as in Capture One. I love the Focus mask tool!
Also, I think with the Capture One 11 evolved Color Balance tool you can quite easily color grade the picture and get the preferred look saved in a Preset for future use.
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Thank you. Clipping Warning and Exposure Heatmap might be useful for me. Is this available only with a XF body or also with a DF+? I did not find any Phase One documentation on this topic searching the web.
They work even on a shoebox. Nothing camera related in those functionality. Although I never tried the Exposure Heatmap, only the Clipping warning on a DF+, but I use both quite regularly on a view camera.
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Thank you all for your input, much appreciate it.
Here are some of my final thoughts and questions on the topic.
Hassy is out of the question, I’m afraid, because I want to stay with Capture One. I love Capture One! I have invested in the Logic Keyboard + Tangent Element Tk + Tangent Element Kb and I use the Color Balance and Color Editor all the time. Could not live without it.
True. After I got my hands on some GFX 50S raw files and IQ 280 raw files that are available on the net my initial preference is toward the CCD and the IQ. The IQ files were, ironically, shot with a Hassy body and lens.
I needed to tweak both files in Capture One, but the GFX needed much more work in the Color Balance tool than the IQ one. I think this is due to lack of profiles for the GFX that I think will be added to Capture One later in the future (I think David Grover stated that on one of the LuLa’s forums).
I played with all the files and found out that the IQ 280 have the most latitude and that you can “squeeze the most fruity juice” from them.
It must be I’m a CCD guy :)
Please see the attached print screens for illustration. On the left is the Fuji GFX 50S studio portrait with basic tweaking, on the right is the IQ 280 one made with a Hassy. The second attachment is a 100% (Fuji) vs. 50% (IQ) zoom comparison.
Thank you. Clipping Warning and Exposure Heatmap might be useful for me. Is this available only with a XF body or also with a DF+? I did not find any Phase One documentation on this topic searching the web.
I do use Profoto lights so this is another plus for getting also the XF. I read there are two AF modules for the XF. Is the difference between the two significant?
With the 50 is the crop factor problem. I would settle for a crop factor only with a new camera, like the GFX. If buying used or certified pre-owned I would much rather buy the full frame back.
Initially I was looking also at the Credo 80 for the same reason as you are recommending it, the Leaf portrait profiles. God, I love the Aptus 22 portrait profiles. However, the IQ has something that it would be very very difficult for me to give up with the new purchase. The Focus mask tool on the back, same as in Capture One. I love the Focus mask tool!
Also, I think with the Capture One 11 evolved Color Balance tool you can quite easily color grade the picture and get the preferred look saved in a Preset for future use.
Have to say, very surprised to see how well the GFX stacks up against the Phase One on your samples. Before I had seen which was which I thought, the Phase One is better than the GFX here - it turned out the other way around!
Maybe worth waiting until the GFX100, especially now it has C1 support, perhaps? If you're heart is set on the 280 then go for it, but...