Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Mirrorless Cameras => Topic started by: Rand47 on September 10, 2018, 12:40:19 pm
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Someone at Fuji’s design team must actually be a photographer! For the longest time, I’ve gnashed my teeth with every camera I’ve owned when shooting landscapes, tripod mounted, with an Arca Swiss type L-Plate that blocks the access door on the left side of the body - right where the remote release port is located. STUPID, STUPID, STUPID. Folk like Really Right Stuff have resorted to “sliding L-Plate designs” in order to allow the plate to be slid over so that the door can be opened, and slots in the plate to allow the cord to be routed, and that only worked “OK” in horizontal mode, and was at best a KLUGE in vertical mounting/shooting.
The new X-T3 has a separate access port w/ the remote release socket on the right side of the body, above the card door. What a concept! Believe it or not, this is a big enough deal, for the way I shoot, to buy the T-3 even if nothing else had been changed.
EVERY camera should be designed like this.
Rand
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I had two workarounds for that issue that suffice for me
- use the timer to set 2 or 10 sec delay after pressing the shutter
- use the Fuji smart phone app
That said, the X-T3 solved the issue most elegantly
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Do Fuji camera have no IR remote control?
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Do Fuji camera have no IR remote control?
No, but they have an excellent remote app for iOS and Android. The app works well, but I don't like being dependent on it. Sometimes there's nothing as positive as a nice wired connection. As a question, for those cameras that have IR remotes, do they allow multi-minute exposures using the BULB setting?
Rand
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Re: Do Fuji camera have no IR remote control?
Not that I’m aware of. I’ve never used an IR remote even after almost 40 years of Canon SLRs/DSLRs.z
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I had two workarounds for that issue that suffice for me
- use the timer to set 2 or 10 sec delay after pressing the shutter
- use the Fuji smart phone app
That said, the X-T3 solved the issue most elegantly
The timer setting is handy as long as one is not doing multi-minute BULB exposures. Even though there is a "T" setting where one can dial in longer exposures, it isn't granular enough for most of my calculated required exposure times for multi ND filtered work, e.g. 4 minutes, 45 seconds and the like. The most recent app update does include a mere "shutter button" (that even has a slide lock for BULB work!!!) but often it isn't convenient to use in real world shooting conditions.
Rand
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Rand,
While I use ND filters occasionally I rarely need the Bulb time accuracy you mention. In fact, I haven’t checked out that mode on my X-T2 in a very long time. I will now though. ;D
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As a question, for those cameras that have IR remotes, do they allow multi-minute exposures using the BULB setting?
I haven't tested multi-minute but in the bulb mode on my Canons one press on the remote opens the shutter and a second press closes it.
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I haven't tested multi-minute but in the bulb mode on my Canons one press on the remote opens the shutter and a second press closes it.
That’s excellent then. I can’t see where there should be a “how long it remains open” limit. If you get a chance to test it, I’d appreciate knowing just for my own interest.
Rand
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The Arca-Swiss L-bracket I use has been fine on both my D700 and D800. No need to wait for the Fuji XT-3. Just saying.
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That remote is actually implementing a "time" mode - bulb is "hold the button closed", while time is "click to open, click to close". With electronic shutters, there is certainly a limit based on battery life (some older cameras, notably the Nikon F3, had mechanical bulb and time modes on otherwise electronic shutters). Multiple-minute exposures on digital cameras, which need to use battery not only for the shutter but to power the image sensor, and then for quite a bit of noise reduction post-processing including a second equal-length exposure with the shutter closed, noticeably drain the battery per shot. I'd imagine half an hour would be long enough to risk exhausting a reasonably well charged battery, especially in cold conditions or on a camera with the smaller batteries (any Fuji, any Sony except the A7III series and the A9, most Micro 4/3 except the GH series).
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Oh, so that is what this little door is above the card slot door. cool.
I was glad to see that they went back to the shorter top knobs. The X-T2 knobs were too tall, clunky looking IMO. But looking at a comparison it looks like the knobs are about the same height but the function ring at the base is bigger - which is welcome too. A good trade off I think, the function rings are a little difficult to get to some times.
The X-T3 looks to be a good incremental build, I'm so happy with my X-T2 that I can't justify the purchase right now though.
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One of the things I really like about Fujifilm is they think through the small details as well as the big things.
Like the fact that the left side door over the interface ports is removable so you won't break it off when using the camera in a rig or gimbal with video cables. Fujifilm will also be releasing a cover kit that will include the door (as well as hot shoe cover, flash sync port cover, and contacts cover) in case you lose your interface port door.
They also tapered the ISO and SS knobs and made them thinner so they could make the drive mode and metering mode control rings thicker with taller, larger finger tabs for easier adjustment.
You can also configure the camera now so that you can use command dials to adjust aperture of lenses if you want.
Then there's the locking diopter control, and AWB LOCK, so you can lock AWB when shooting in challenging lighting conditions.
There's also the red/gray "night vision" mode for the custom menu display for use in astrophotography, etc.
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That remote is actually implementing a "time" mode - bulb is "hold the button closed", while time is "click to open, click to close". With electronic shutters, there is certainly a limit based on battery life (some older cameras, notably the Nikon F3, had mechanical bulb and time modes on otherwise electronic shutters). Multiple-minute exposures on digital cameras, which need to use battery not only for the shutter but to power the image sensor, and then for quite a bit of noise reduction post-processing including a second equal-length exposure with the shutter closed, noticeably drain the battery per shot. I'd imagine half an hour would be long enough to risk exhausting a reasonably well charged battery, especially in cold conditions or on a camera with the smaller batteries (any Fuji, any Sony except the A7III series and the A9, most Micro 4/3 except the GH series).
Fuji’s implementation is a bit different. BULB is just like it was back in the day... a long as the shutter button is “held down / remains pressed” (no matter that is it some sort of continuing signal either via remote app or wired release) the shutter remains open. The LCD has a display “counting up” the number of seconds the shutter has been open. The T setting on the Fuji allows one to dial in a specific amount time, and then on release the LCD timer indication “counts down.”
Rand
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The Arca-Swiss L-bracket I use has been fine on both my D700 and D800. No need to wait for the Fuji XT-3. Just saying.
LOL, and why would you? 8)
Rand
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If it was truly designed by a photographer, it would have IBIS which is probably the most valuable feature for street photography where Fuji's are used quite often. Don't know what Fuji is thinking here...but I personally will not touch another camera without ibis.
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I wish camera manufacturers would just go ahead and build Arca-Swiss dovetails into the base and left side (or right side, for left-handed camera bodies...) rather than requiring an add-on that adds weight, blocks access and can be misaligned. It's pretty much the default standard for clamps and plates, anyway.
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I wish camera manufacturers would just go ahead and build Arca-Swiss dovetails into the base and left side (or right side, for left-handed camera bodies...) rather than requiring an add-on that adds weight, blocks access and can be misaligned. It's pretty much the default standard for clamps and plates, anyway.
Not if it adds weight to the body or doesn't allow the body to sit flat when put down. I'd rather add weight when need be instead of carrying the extra weight when not needing the mount.
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Not if it adds weight to the body or doesn't allow the body to sit flat when put down. I'd rather add weight when need be instead of carrying the extra weight when not needing the mount.
Why wouldn't it sit flat? The bottom of Arca-Swiss plates are flat - even flatter than the bottom of cameras.
A camera needs a sturdy base plate anyway - something that can hold a screw mount to attach it to a tripod without coming loose, breaking or warping under the load. May as well add dovetails to it.
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Why wouldn't it sit flat? The bottom of Arca-Swiss plates are flat - even flatter than the bottom of cameras.
A camera needs a sturdy base plate anyway - something that can hold a screw mount to attach it to a tripod without coming loose, breaking or warping under the load. May as well add dovetails to it.
Well with my plate attached to the camera it is very easy to tip the camera forward. Also I always use an L-plate...how would this work?
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Well with my plate attached to the camera it is very easy to tip the camera forward. Also I always use an L-plate...how would this work?
Mine sits flat as a brick with the L-plate on.
To make it an L-plate, just continue the dovetail around the side of the camera. Same as with a regular L-plate.
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Mine sits flat as a brick with the L-plate on.
To make it an L-plate, just continue the dovetail around the side of the camera. Same as with a regular L-plate.
So the side of the L-plate needs to extend out so one has access to the ports. This would become a major pain when not in use. Much rather have the option of just putting an L-plate on when needed like today than always suffering with the extra weight and bulk when not in use.
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Well with my plate attached to the camera it is very easy to tip the camera forward. Also I always use an L-plate...how would this work?
The L-plate would be built-in so to speak. Imagine if the L-plate melted into the body and all that's visible from the outside are the little rails (at the bottom and on the sides) that lock into the tripod head. I'd welcome it too.
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Built in L plate. Now that’s a clever idea.
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The L-plate would be built-in so to speak. Imagine if the L-plate melted into the body and all that's visible from the outside are the little rails (at the bottom and on the sides) that lock into the tripod head. I'd welcome it too.
But everyone of my cameras have ports or other features that I need access to...so how would I access them if the camera is tight to the tripod when in portrait orientation. My current L-plate allows me to access these ports by having a gap between the body and the plate. Do you propose having the built in plate with a gap so I still have this access?
Again...what is wrong with the current approach of just attaching an L-plate whenever one needs it...and just as importantly, taking it off and saving weight and bulk when not in use.
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So the side of the L-plate needs to extend out so one has access to the ports. This would become a major pain when not in use. Much rather have the option of just putting an L-plate on when needed like today than always suffering with the extra weight and bulk when not in use.
Just move the ports, or have duplicates.
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But everyone of my cameras have ports or other features that I need access to...so how would I access them if the camera is tight to the tripod when in portrait orientation. My current L-plate allows me to access these ports by having a gap between the body and the plate. Do you propose having the built in plate with a gap so I still have this access?
Again...what is wrong with the current approach of just attaching an L-plate whenever one needs it...and just as importantly, taking it off and saving weight and bulk when not in use.
If it were inbuilt, you'd be saving very little, if any, weight and bulk.
An inbuilt L-plate wouldn't be a big, solid chunk of metal like the screw-on ones. It would be just like the base camera, except with slightly different shaped sides. And it would weigh a lot less than the base camera plus an external L plate.
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And you would never forget it at home. Unless you forgot the entire camera and then you wouldn’t need it anyway.
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If it were inbuilt, you'd be saving very little, if any, weight and bulk.
An inbuilt L-plate wouldn't be a big, solid chunk of metal like the screw-on ones. It would be just like the base camera, except with slightly different shaped sides. And it would weigh a lot less than the base camera plus an external L plate.
But it would still weigh more than when I remove my plate altogether. And how would it feel holding the camera with protruding rails on two sides of the body? Right now looking at my cameras, they have nicely formed grips on the sides that are comfortable to hand hold...how would this built in L-plate affect this nicely formed grip with its protruding rails?
Bad idea over from a weight, bulk and comfort viewpoint.
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If it was truly designed by a photographer, it would have IBIS which is probably the most valuable feature for street photography where Fuji's are used quite often. Don't know what Fuji is thinking here...but I personally will not touch another camera without ibis.
Wait, what? Street photography and IBIS? Unless you want a blurry thing what shutter speed would you use when photographing people and how would IBIS help?
On a side note it seems commonly accepted that in the telephoto range OIS is a touch better than IBIS. In my experience with E-M5ii and various Fuji the IBIS doesn't give me much extra compared to the OIS in the lenses. The main advantage would be for primes, but not for moving things.
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Wait, what? Street photography and IBIS? Unless you want a blurry thing what shutter speed would you use when photographing people and how would IBIS help?
On a side note it seems commonly accepted that in the telephoto range OIS is a touch better than IBIS. In my experience with E-M5ii and various Fuji the IBIS doesn't give me much extra compared to the OIS in the lenses. The main advantage would be for primes, but not for moving things.
I photograph many times in dim markets where the people selling things aren't moving very fast and you can time your shots when they are stationary. Even then if a hand shows motion I feel the image is a success quite often to illustrate the dim conditions being shot. What never is a success is the non sharp ( blury ) image due to camera movement.
I believe most ibis systems work in coordination with the lens based IS systems providing even more stabalization than was possible with just the lens based IS.
Like I said for my travel photography I'll never use a camera without ibis...it's just too valuable of a feature for me and does allow me to get images I could not without it.
People who shoot in good light...might not find any benefits...but when it gets dim and you need apertures to get the required DOF, ibis allows this with any lens.
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I don't find the OIS in Fuji lenses much help. Perhaps it is better than nothing, but I don't rely on it. I would rather bump up the ISO to gain additional shutter speed.
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I don't find the OIS in Fuji lenses much help. Perhaps it is better than nothing, but I don't rely on it. I would rather bump up the ISO to gain additional shutter speed.
Quite often I'm already shooting at high ISO and bumping it up more will degrade the image too much. The only time I turn IBIS off is shooting landscapes off a tripod.
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In combination with OIS the IBIS will lead to more keepers but it is not a certain deal, it will just make it more frequent. Many times you can get similar results if you take few more shots in rapid succession. Yes, you will have to sort through more shots later but you will have it there, the sharp one. This is valid for somewhere in the 1/5-1/30 range, slower than 1/5 the IBIS will have the upper hand as in you will get some shots sharp. I kept hearing about multi seconds sharp shots but I rarely can make that happen.
Which lenses do you use that you feel the OIS is not helpful? Keep in mind that with the X-T2 I need a faster time than with the X-T1. Overall I feel they add 2-3 stops to what you would get without. I have the 10-24 (most effective, can get even 4 stops occasionally), 18-55 and 55-200.
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The 10-24 and 18-55. I haven't found OIS consistently helpful.
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I love the Dual IS on my Panasonic GX8. With the 100–400mm lens at the long end (800mm "equiv.") I can snap at 1/100th sec and get consistently crisp results. At 1/50th sec a series of five or six exposures typically results in at least one keeper. Comes in handy in the evening and at night.
-Dave-
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But it would still weigh more than when I remove my plate altogether. And how would it feel holding the camera with protruding rails on two sides of the body? Right now looking at my cameras, they have nicely formed grips on the sides that are comfortable to hand hold...how would this built in L-plate affect this nicely formed grip with its protruding rails?
Bad idea over from a weight, bulk and comfort viewpoint.
Maybe 5g or 10g more at most. The structural materials are there in the camera already anyway. They just need to ne shaped differently.
And probably 150g lighter than the camera with external L-bracket. Most of the time, the L bracket will be in your bag anyway, so it's not like you're saving any overall weight.
It wouldn't feel any different from the way the camera currently feels, unless you're in the habit of holding your camera by the base instead of the more usual grip and lens position. How often do you hold the camera by the L-bracket anyway?
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Maybe 5g or 10g more at most. The structural materials are there in the camera already anyway. They just need to ne shaped differently.
And probably 150g lighter than the camera with external L-bracket. Most of the time, the L bracket will be in your bag anyway, so it's not like you're saving any overall weight.
It wouldn't feel any different from the way the camera currently feels, unless you're in the habit of holding your camera by the base instead of the more usual grip and lens position. How often do you hold the camera by the L-bracket anyway?
Never carry my camera with the L-bracket on it...it's on the tripod or the L-bracket is off of it.
Actually my left hand cradles the bottom and side of the camera as well as the lens as many of my lenses are tiny and it's more comfortable to cradle both the lens and body at the same time. This would be awkward with the dove tails sticking out.
And guaranteed adding the dove "machined precision" dove tails to the bottom and side of the camera will add more than 10gm...I'd say at least 50gm, maybe more. A simple dovetail plate from RRS which is basically what would need to be added to the camera body weighs 40gm. Take away the screw and a bit of metal and you are at 25gm...so I'd say 50gm for the two plates is about right.
Personally it feels like a solution looking for a problem.
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We all have different needs and desires; however, I think that the number of people than don't use L-brackets vastly outnumbers those than do, so I would not expect to see this idea incorporated.
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I don't find the OIS in Fuji lenses much help. Perhaps it is better than nothing, but I don't rely on it. I would rather bump up the ISO to gain additional shutter speed.
I'm not too worried about OIS at short focal lengths, my hand is still reasonably steady. But being able to get sharp images at 400mm at 1/20 sec on the 100-400 is surprising every time I look at the files.
David
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The 10-24 and 18-55. I haven't found OIS consistently helpful.
That's unusual, these should give 2-3 stops for most people. What stabilization mode are you using? All firmware uptodate?
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Wait, what? Street photography and IBIS?
1) since when street photography is only about taking pictures of moving subjects and nothing else ?
2) and then not always peope use wide(r) lenses hence @ tele IBIS/OIS/combo might help with 1 /( focal * multiplier of your choice) rule when that ratio becomes comparable with the exposure time short enough to freeze some motion
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That's unusual, these should give 2-3 stops for most people. What stabilization mode are you using? All firmware uptodate?
Fuji 18-55/2.8-4 is not an example of great OIS
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Fuji 18-55/2.8-4 is not an example of great OIS
It's below average but should still give 2-3 stops. As far as I recall, in my hands, is at lest as effective as the Nikon 24-120 F4 on a D750.
1) since when street photography is only about taking pictures of moving subjects and nothing else ?
2) and then not always peope use wide(r) lenses hence @ tele IBIS/OIS/combo might help with 1 /( focal * multiplier of your choice) rule when that ratio becomes comparable with the exposure time short enough to freeze some motion
My understanding is that street will have people much more often than not. For those cases there is a limit of how much you can slow down your shutter speed and I think OIS can do that. Is IBIS better, particularly when combined with OIS? Yes, but from what I've tried the difference is exaggerated by many.
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I don't find the OIS in Fuji lenses much help. Perhaps it is better than nothing, but I don't rely on it. I would rather bump up the ISO to gain additional shutter speed.
I don’t know which Fuji lenses you have, but I find just the opposite. I can hand hold the 50-140 down to 1/15th second no problem. Same with the 100-400 at 1/30th and above in a lot of situations. The 10-24 is also very good. The 18-55 is “OK”... but no great shakes (great pun, though ‘eh?).
Also, since the IBIS and the OIS work in concert with each other on the H-1, I’ve seen noticeable gains in the overall stabilization.
Rand
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I agree with Rand - the X-H1 adds noticeable stability to already stabilized lenses. The 50-140 is a marvel, and the 100-400 is very good (but remember just how long it is - you still need quick shutter speeds because it's got a huge amount of magnification). The 10-24 is well stabilized for a very wide lens. While the 18-55 has merely OK stabilization, I can still shoot it down to 1/20 or so, even at 55mm, on an X-T2. I actually haven't tried the 18-55/X-H1 combination (I have both, but tend to use the unstabilized 16-55 as a standard zoom on the X-H1 - which is more stable than the 18-55 on an unstabilized body).